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PoliGAF 2014 |OT| Kay Hagan and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad News

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I just took a look at the privilege thread and it didn't annoy me as much I expected, since there wasn't as much denial of it as I expected, and it was more complaining about "check your privilege" which is indeed annoying.

Caveat, I only read some random pages.
 
Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet.
http://m.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/248ipzbt.asp?page=1
From its beginning, the new military government implemented harsh measures against its perceived opponents.[6] Various reports and investigations claim that between 1,200 and 3,200 people were killed, up to 80,000 people were interned and as many as 30,000 were tortured during the time Pinochet was in government.
 

Chichikov

Member
I just took a look at the privilege thread and it didn't annoy me as much I expected, since there wasn't as much denial of it as I expected, and it was more complaining about "check your privilege" which is indeed annoying.

Caveat, I only read some random pages.
For real, do people really say "check your privilege"?
I googled it, it's mostly people complain about it or making fun of it, I also never heard it ever said in real life.

And in any case (and as I said in that thread ad nauseum) that problem with that stupid ass article is that guy denied the existence of white privilege.
Comic book villians.

Edit: just so we're clear here, everyone knows that the CIA installed Pinochet after orchestrating the assassination of a democratically elected president?
Just making sure we're clear here, not directly related to that stupid ass article, but it's worth repeating.
 

bonercop

Member
Didn't hear about it, found that text -
"Corporations are not people. They have none of the Constitutional rights of human beings. Corporations are not allowed to give money to any politician, directly or indirectly. No politician can raise over $100 from any person or entity. All elections must be publicly financed."​
While I agree with everything there, I honestly think that if you go that route you need to focus on killing corporate personhood, I think you can get an overwhelming support for that (and I'd like to see anyone mount a serious opposition to that).

Also, I'm not sure how election can be both publicly financed and get donations of up to $100 from an individual.
Either way, good on them, I don't think it has a chance, but it's still a good exercise.

Who knows? Around ten states have introduced the resolution so far and I remember thinking they'd never even get that far with a single state. Vermont's the first to actual call for the convention, but it made it past the state house in California. At the very least their persistence is admirable.
 

Manarola

Banned
While I agree with everything there, I honestly think that if you go that route you need to focus on killing corporate personhood, I think you can get an overwhelming support for that (and I'd like to see anyone mount a serious opposition to that).

.

Why do we need to kill corporate personhood? Corporate personhood has been in place in one form or another for over a century and it serves many functions other than facilitating campaign finance. You can address the problem of the latter without killing it.
 

Chichikov

Member
Why do we need to kill corporate personhood? Corporate personhood has been in place in one form or another for over a century and it serves many functions other than facilitating campaign finance. You can address the problem of the latter without killing it.
Because it's a terrible Idea that doesn't make a lick of sense and can lead to whole mess of undesirable results if followed to its logical conclusions.

And I'm not sure what positive functions it served.
 

Manarola

Banned
Because it's a terrible Idea that doesn't make a lick of sense and can lead to whole mess of undesirable results if followed to its logical conclusions.

And I'm not sure what positive functions it served.

There's many. How do you propose that corporations will enter contracts with others if we don't treat them as a single legal entity? It also makes it easier to sue them and for courts to exercise jurisdiction over them. I've never heard of anyone seriously proposing that corporate personhood should be eliminated, actually - although there are many critics of Citizens United and similar decisions. Unless you just don't like corporations and think we shouldn't have them. I guess if that were the case, it would make more sense.
 
I've heard people say that if people really had an issue with what Sterling thinks, then they should take it upon themselves to respond in Clippers merchandise and attendance, but they don't make the connection that the whole point of boycotting is to put financial pressure on somebody so they make changes... like banning Sterling. The NBA responding as it did was to preempt any such financial harm and loss of reputation!
Well...I think that is what happened more or less. The PLAYERS were set to boycott games if nothing was done. That lit a fire under Silver.
 
There's many. How do you propose that corporations will enter contracts with others if we don't treat them as a single legal entity? It also makes it easier to sue them and for courts to exercise jurisdiction over them. I've never heard of anyone seriously proposing that corporate personhood should be eliminated, actually - although there are many critics of Citizens United and similar decisions. Unless you just don't like corporations and think we shouldn't have them. I guess if that were the case, it would make more sense.
Those things would still exist. It would remain as a legal construct. But not a person which then gives it rights which were intended for humans.
 

Manarola

Banned
Those things would still exist. It would remain as a legal construct. But not a person which then gives it rights which were intended for humans.

But you want to be able to bring a corporation into court as a legal entity, but not give them basic rights? Do you think the 4th amendment should apply to corporations?
 

Zona

Member
There's many. How do you propose that corporations will enter contracts with others if we don't treat them as a single legal entity? It also makes it easier to sue them and for courts to exercise jurisdiction over them. I've never heard of anyone seriously proposing that corporate personhood should be eliminated, actually - although there are many critics of Citizens United and similar decisions. Unless you just don't like corporations and think we shouldn't have them. I guess if that were the case, it would make more sense.

Opposition to corporate personhood is targeted at the idea the corporations enjoy the same rights as an individual, free speech, campaign donations, etc etc. It's not an opposition to how we handle things like contracts and lawsuits because that's the entire legal point of a corporation. I'd not object to the owners and managers facing criminal and civil charges for corporate wrongdoing though. Hell I think I'd welcome it.

But you want to be able to bring a corporation into court as a legal entity, but not give them basic rights? Do you think the 4th amendment should apply to corporations?

No, its not a sentient entity. It's a legal convenience created by government through law. It has no more inherent rights then a speed limit.
 

Manarola

Banned
Opposition to corporate personhood is targeted at the idea the corporations enjoy the same rights as an individual, free speech, campaign donations, etc etc. It's not an opposition to how we handle things like contracts and lawsuits because that's the entire legal point of a corporation. I'd not object to the owners and managers facing criminal and civil charges for corporate wrongdoing though. Hell I think I'd welcome it.



No, its not a sentient entity. It's a legal convenience created by government through law. It has no more inherent rights then a speed limit.

So you're okay with the police searching a corporate office whenever they want?
 

Jooney

Member
I have this impression that it would be incredibly easy to bang out some dreck and break into the pop Christian market to make a fortune.

But I just can't bring myself to try...


southpark.jpg

But you know you want to ...

Cyan will even play bring his keytar.
 
So you're okay with the police searching a corporate office whenever they want?

"the corporate office" would presumably have a living owner or leasee, whose rights against unreasonable searches should already be covered by the fourth amendment.

there's no reason to extend this protection to "the corporation" on top of that.

Or to put it another way, if I'm stopped while driving the company car, it's my own rights under the fourth amendment that should prohibit the cops from tearing the car apart looking for weed. Whether the corporation I work for whose car it technically is has fourth amendment rights is entirely irrelevant.
 

Manarola

Banned
"the corporate office" would presumably have a living owner or leasee, whose rights against unreasonable searches should already be covered by the fourth amendment.

there's no reason to extend this protection to "the corporation" on top of that.

What if the living owner is the corporation? Or are you saying corporations shouldn't be allowed to own real property?

Or to put it another way, if I'm stopped while driving the company car, it's my own rights under the fourth amendment that should prohibit the cops from tearing the car apart looking for weed. Whether the corporation I work for whose car it technically is has fourth amendment rights is entirely irrelevant.

How are your rights violated when its not your car?
 
I have this impression that it would be incredibly easy to bang out some dreck and break into the pop Christian market to make a fortune.

But I just can't bring myself to try...

It's really not any easier to write "genre" fiction than any other, but you certainly can't write it if you don't take it seriously. The screenwriters of all those Christian debate movies fervently believe all that dialog they write.

Besides, you'd have to take a lot of meetings with Christian producers, and there'd be a lot of prayer circles. Not worth it.
 
What if the living owner is the corporation? Or are you saying corporations shouldn't be allowed to own real property?

as corporations are not "living", they can't be the living owner, now can they? Let's use rental cars as an example. Enterprise rent a car owns every car in their fleet. You rent one from them however and YOU are responsible for whatever might be found in that car, not enterprise. it's the rights and responsibilities of the person who took out the lease, not the corporation that takes precedence.

Likewise, say that car isn't rented, and it's just the employees transporting it from one office to another for business use. You get stopped and pulled over and it is now the employee who is responsible, and the employee's right to refuse an unreasonable search.

What happens if the car vanishes from a lot? And the police find it with no operator? Then in that case the car is the responsibility of the branch manager of the facility that car has been assigned to. If the police want to bust the windows out and search it for drugs, they'll have to deal with his rights.

Whether or not enterprise the corporation as the technical owner of that vehicle has rights is entirely irrelevant, as the corporation is not a living entity.

How are your rights violated when its not your car?

have you ever been pulled over and had your car searched? if anything is found (or alternatively, planted there) the corporation isn't going to jail, you are. That's why "your rights" are violated here.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
Didn't hear about it, found that text -
"Corporations are not people. They have none of the Constitutional rights of human beings. Corporations are not allowed to give money to any politician, directly or indirectly. No politician can raise over $100 from any person or entity. All elections must be publicly financed."​
While I agree with everything there, I honestly think that if you go that route you need to focus on killing corporate personhood, I think you can get an overwhelming support for that (and I'd like to see anyone mount a serious opposition to that).

Also, I'm not sure how election can be both publicly financed and get donations of up to $100 from an individual.
Either way, good on them, I don't think it has a chance, but it's still a good exercise.

Because it's a terrible Idea that doesn't make a lick of sense and can lead to whole mess of undesirable results if followed to its logical conclusions.

And I'm not sure what positive functions it served.

When discussing corporate personhood, it's important to be precise in what is meant. Manarola thinks you're talking about whether a corporation is a "person" in that it can sue and be sued, own property, enter contracts, and so forth. But I'd guess you're talking about whether a corporation is a "person" entitled to Constitutional rights. There's good reason to conclude that it is.

The first rule in discussing corporations is this: corporations do not exist. There is no creature out there in the real world called a corporation. Fundamentally, a for-profit corporation is an association of individuals to carry on a private business. When you talk about a "corporation," you're talking about them--those individuals who form the association. So the question becomes, "Do individuals give up their Constitutional rights when acting in association with other individuals?" I think the answer to that is obvious.

If you concede that individuals do not give up their Constitutional rights when acting in association with other individuals, then the question becomes merely semantic: do we say that these rights belong to the corporation as a person, or do we say that these rights are the rights of the individuals who comprise the association that has been incorporated?

Some people will argue that by accepting a grant of limited liability, an association that incorporates loses its Constitutional rights--or at least, should lose its Constitutional rights. It is enough to respond that such a bargain has never been suggested by law.

No, its not a sentient entity. It's a legal convenience created by government through law. It has no more inherent rights then a speed limit.

A corporation is a private association of individuals to carry on a business. The government limits by law the liability of shareholders for corporate liabilities. But it doesn't create the association. A speed limit is not an individual nor an association of individuals. It is the analog of a statute granting limited liability to corporate shareholders--but nobody argues that the limited liability regime has rights. We're talking about the people involved, not the laws involved.

I don't. A corporation is a form of government.

No, it isn't. A corporation is a private association of individuals to carry on a business. Nobody comments on how remarkable it is that corporations can be sued, because nobody views a corporation as a form or subdivision of government entitled to sovereign immunity. What is remarkable about corporations are the advantages of a corporation compared with an unincorporated association--i.e., a private association of individuals. The government provides neither the capital nor the labor employed by a corporation; it does not instigate the formation of the corporation; does not involve itself (outside of providing generally applicable procedural rules) in the organization of the corporation. Usually (and of course there are exceptional cases), nobody thinks to sue a government for the wrongdoing of a corporation, and nobody thinks to assert Constitutional claims against corporations when those claims are only valid against government actors. All of this is true because what you say (here and repeatedly in the past) is false.
 

Manarola

Banned
Likewise, say that car isn't rented, and it's just the employees transporting it from one office to another for business use. You get stopped and pulled over and it is now the employee who is responsible.

What happens if the car vanishes from a lot? And the police find it with no operator? Then in that case the car is the responsibility of the branch manager of the facility that car has been assigned to. If the police want to bust the windows out and search it for drugs, they'll have to deal with his rights.

Whether or not enterprise as the technical owner of that vehicle has rights is entirely irrelevant, as the corporation is not a living entity.

What rights does a branch manager have over a car that does not belong to him? Where are you getting these rights from? I don't think they come from the 4th amendment.

have you ever been pulled over and had your car searched? if anything is found (or alternatively, planted there) the corporation isn't going to jail, you are. That's why "your rights" are violated here.
Let me ask you a different question. If you are driving the company car, and you get pulled over - let's say there's incriminating corporate documents in the trunk, but they have nothing to do with you. You give permission for the police to search the car, even though the car does not belong to you and the corporation has given you no power to do so. Is this fine with you?
 
What rights does a branch manager have over a car that does not belong to him? Where are you getting these rights from? I don't think they come from the 4th amendment.

The branch manager would and does have legal responsibility for the vehicles in their fleet, since the cars are assigned to and "owned" on a branch by branch basis and the manager has final authority over all branch operations. If one goes missing or is damaged in violation of company policy, they actually end up having to pay the parent office for that vehicle out of what would have been their bonus money. Used to work there, they were not pleased when something like that happened.

Let me ask you a different question. If you are driving the company car, and you get pulled over - let's say there's incriminating corporate documents in the trunk, but they have nothing to do with you. You give permission for the police to search the car, even though the car does not belong to you and the corporation has given you no power to do so. Is this fine with you?

The key phrase there is "give permission." If I'm operating that vehicle, I'm responsible for it as well as everything in it, good and bad. They have handed over custody of that vehicle and its contents to me. If the corporation has incriminating documents in the trunk that they happened to leave there before handing over the keys to me then that's their problem. They're in the same position here as they would be if they had left incriminating documents around in plain sight for the authorities to find.

Now, if I have not checked the trunk but think there may be material in there that might incriminate or inconvenience me personally, then I have the right to refuse a search.

i do drive company cars quite frequently in my current job as well as others- when I get pulled over, do you think the police ask ME if I consent to a vehicle search? or do you think they ask me to phone my office?

Edit: here's another example. I currently work for the state in a high security facility. we do random vehicle searches on employees as well as visitors to spot check for contraband. If an employee is pulled over and their vehicle is searched and drugs or weaponry is found, who do you think is responsible? does it matter if this car is rented or borrowed?
 
What if the living owner is the corporation? Or are you saying corporations shouldn't be allowed to own real property?

A living owner is never a corporation. A corporation is a separate entity.

No, it isn't. A corporation is a private association of individuals to carry on a business.

No, it isn't. It is a government enterprise (a collective) that states permit private persons to profit from. It is basically an end run around democratic governance by devolving power to smaller groups. A corporation cannot exist in the absence of the state's creation of it.

Nobody comments on how remarkable it is that corporations can be sued, because nobody views a corporation as a form or subdivision of government entitled to sovereign immunity.

That's because people no longer understand what corporations are, not because they are not government entities.

What is remarkable about corporations are the advantages of a corporation compared with an unincorporated association--i.e., a private association of individuals. The government provides neither the capital nor the labor employed by a corporation; it does not instigate the formation of the corporation; does not involve itself (outside of providing generally applicable procedural rules) in the organization of the corporation. Usually (and of course there are exceptional cases), nobody thinks to sue a government for the wrongdoing of a corporation, and nobody thinks to assert Constitutional claims against corporations when those claims are only valid against government actors. All of this is true because what you say (here and repeatedly in the past) is false.

No, it's because, like you, people do not understand that a corporation is part of the government. But it clearly is. The state births it and bestows it power. Indeed, state governments were corporations. Municipalities are corporations created by charter. Any time the state brings something to existence, the thing that it brings into existence is also the state.
 
While a state 'creates' a corporation in the sense it bestows legal rights and obligations.
But it doesn't birth the association. They're not "Confused" they just differ on where the 'point of conception' is. If as EV points out its the bestowing of legal rights then the government has a lot more powers. If its as the conception of the association the government would tend to infringe on fundamental rights with certain actions. I think as a corporation gets bigger it tends to rely more on the government and isn't so much a association entitled to the same protections.

People join together to do business. Governments recognize that and have created legalized forms of association which can be regulated. But those associations have certain rights, though not others. I think its fair to say the equal protection clause should well be applied. But not free speech. Its a balancing test. I'd much rather corporate person hood jurisprudence be based in freedom of association arguments rather than equal protection (I think the doctrine of equal protection is kind of implied through other portions of the constitution).
 
While a state 'creates' a corporation in the sense it bestows legal rights and obligations.
But it doesn't birth the association. They're not "Confused" they just differ on where the 'point of conception' is. If as EV points out its the bestowing of legal rights then the government has a lot more powers. If its as the conception of the association the government would tend to infringe on fundamental rights with certain actions. I think as a corporation gets bigger it tends to rely more on the government and isn't so much a association entitled to the same protections.

People join together to do business. Governments recognize that and have created legalized forms of association which can be regulated. But those associations have certain rights, though not others. I think its fair to say the equal protection clause should well be applied. But not free speech. Its a balancing test. I'd much rather corporate person hood jurisprudence be based in freedom of association arguments rather than equal protection (I think the doctrine of equal protection is kind of implied through other portions of the constitution).

A corporation is distinct from just a random association or gathering of people though. The government has created the concept of "corporation" and bestowed specific rights (and withheld others) on it.

These rules determine who is responsible when something goes wrong, and how individual members of that association will be shielded from liability. This is explicitly a power granted to corporations by the federal government. Without that power being granted, an informal association lacks these protections.

a corporation is entirely a legal concept created by the US government, and what it actually is, it's benefits, and limitations are subject to the whims of the government at any given time. The government can order corporations null and void or split into multiple entities, if it determines that this is in it's best interest.
 
Privileged white dude now writing in Time. LOL

The phrase, handed down by my moral superiors, descends recklessly, like an Obama-sanctioned drone, and aims laser-like at my pinkish-peach complexion, my maleness, and the nerve I displayed in offering an opinion rooted in a personal Weltanschauung

Lulz

What the fuck? The guy should apologize for that painful writing . . . a 5-comma run-on sentence with stupid metaphors.
 
While a state 'creates' a corporation in the sense it bestows legal rights and obligations.

It bestows power, it does not grant rights and obligations. It creates a 'thing' that acts on the public. Just like the creation of an agency or a municipal government.

People join together to do business.

And they can do so without incorporation. A corporation is a specific entity that the state creates by issuing a charter (just like how municipal governments are created). Individuals run those corporations, but they are not private individuals in that capacity. For example, I am the director of an incorporated entity. In that capacity, I am not a private individual but an agent of the state. I also am the sole member of the entity, but in that capacity I am a private person. I direct it as an official and profit from it as an individual. But the entity itself is not me nor is it "mine." It was created by the state and remains part of the state. Viewed this way, corporate executives and board members are basically state agents. Shareholders are the private individuals who are allowed to profit from the entity. Looked at this way, one can see how really perverse outsized executive compensation is, as the corporate executive class begins to resemble quite closely a politburo that makes policy for the country while lavishly rewarding itself.
 
So you're okay with the police searching a corporate office whenever they want?

The can't just search a corporate office any time because there are people there and they get protection under the 4th amendment.

But a corporation is a legal fiction created by the state and regulated by the state. A corporation does not have personal relationships, private health matters, sexual preferences, etc. I do think the trade secrets of a corporation should be protected and they do get protective orders to keep such matters private. But other than that, what is it that a corporation should be able keep secret from the state? Tax evasion? Crimes?


And there are areas where it just doesn't make sense at all . . . for example, self-incrimination. The point of not being forced to testify against yourself is that torture is often used to extract false confessions. But you can't torture a corporation.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
No, it isn't. It is a government enterprise (a collective) that states permit private persons to profit from. It is basically an end run around democratic governance by devolving power to smaller groups. A corporation cannot exist in the absence of the state's creation of it.

As I already stated, the government does not decide whether or when to create a private, for-profit corporation. Private individuals, acting without government involvement, do that. If anyone believed that a corporation was a government enterprise, subject to the full control of the government, nobody would form one. "Give up the rights to control your business and property in exchange for limited liability" is another bargain never made by the law. Given that corporations are private enterprises, your notion that they represent an "end run around democratic governance" is likewise wrong. The power over the assets owned by a corporation and the conduct of the corporation's business were already in private hands. Any limits on government power over that property and that business were already entrenched prior to incorporation.

That's because people no longer understand what corporations are, not because they are not government entities.

This requires a bit of unpacking. When empty vessel says "people" here, he means "all judges, lawyers, legislators, and others knowledgeable about the law." His idea--that corporations are a form or subdivision of government--exists only in empty vessel's dreamland, not in the real world. And note how deceptive his framing has been to this point. He didn't say corporations should be treated as a form of government; he said they are a form of government, knowing full well that such is not the law.

No, it's because, like you, people do not understand that a corporation is part of the government. But it clearly is. The state births it and bestows it power. Indeed, state governments were corporations. Municipalities are corporations created by charter. Any time the state brings something to existence, the thing that it brings into existence is also the state.

Notice again his use of "people" and "is" in the first sentence.

The state does not create a corporation in any sense but one: the secretary of state accepts a single document for filing, whereby the corporation's existence as a corporation begins. But it was the private association of individuals (which is itself considered as existing separately from the individuals comprising it) that decided to form the corporation, decided which state to incorporate in, decided what to name the corporation, what its purpose would be, the duration of its existence, where it would establish its business, how it would conduct its business, how it would fund its business, who would be admitted to the association, and so forth. Then, once the formality of sending the Articles of Incorporation (or similar document) to the secretary of state had been satisfied, it was the private individuals who held an organizational meeting; who contributed money or other property to the corporation; who entered into leases or other contracts; who sought and obtained loans or other forms of financing; who sought, interviewed, hired, and managed employees of the business; who sought suppliers or buyers and entered into agreements with them; who incurred every expense of the corporation; who, in short, did everything involved in creating and operating the corporation except for accepting and filing that one document.

EDIT:

This is explicitly a power granted to corporations by the federal government. Without that power being granted, an informal association lacks these protections.

a corporation is entirely a legal concept created by the US government,

Virtually all corporations are formed under state laws, not federal law.
 

Manarola

Banned
The branch manager would and does have legal responsibility for the vehicles in their fleet, since the cars are assigned to and "owned" on a branch by branch basis and the manager has final authority over all branch operations. If one goes missing or is damaged in violation of company policy, they actually end up having to pay the parent office for that vehicle out of what would have been their bonus money. Used to work there, they were not pleased when something like that happened.



The key phrase there is "give permission." If I'm operating that vehicle, I'm responsible for it as well as everything in it, good and bad. They have handed over custody of that vehicle and its contents to me. If the corporation has incriminating documents in the trunk that they happened to leave there before handing over the keys to me then that's their problem. They're in the same position here as they would be if they had left incriminating documents around in plain sight for the authorities to find.

Now, if I have not checked the trunk but think there may be material in there that might incriminate or inconvenience me personally, then I have the right to refuse a search.

i do drive company cars quite frequently in my current job as well as others- when I get pulled over, do you think the police ask ME if I consent to a vehicle search? or do you think they ask me to phone my office?

Edit: here's another example. I currently work for the state in a high security facility. we do random vehicle searches on employees as well as visitors to spot check for contraband. If an employee is pulled over and their vehicle is searched and drugs or weaponry is found, who do you think is responsible? does it matter if this car is rented or borrowed?

You're conflating two different things here. An individual always has a certain right to privacy. My point is that the corporation, as an entity, should be able to refuse consent if the police wants to search its property, in addition to whatever rights the individual has. I'm specifically talking about whether they have rights under the 4th - not whether they are going to be liable for something, because this discussion is about whether we should extend constitutional rights to corporations as a single entity. You are contending that there is no right to refuse consent on their behalf, that only employees or managers have that right. Under this theory, anything in your possession as an employee doesn't really belong to the corporation, whether its in your office or in your car, its in your "custody", and the corporation has no rights to it against police searches. That makes absolutely no sense, and isn't consistent with anything in the law.
 
The first rule in discussing corporations is this: corporations do not exist. There is no creature out there in the real world called a corporation. Fundamentally, a for-profit corporation is an association of individuals to carry on a private business. When you talk about a "corporation," you're talking about them--those individuals who form the association. So the question becomes, "Do individuals give up their Constitutional rights when acting in association with other individuals?" I think the answer to that is obvious.

This is one of the most inane things I've read today. I couldn't read any further.

Corporations exist. Duh. They are legal constructs created by state sanction. They provide a HUGE benefit in the form of limited liability to those shareholders of the corporation. If corporations did not exist, claimants against a corporation would get to take the assets of the shareholders.

Individuals do not lose their constitutional rights . . . but the corporation is not an individual who gets constitutional rights.

Edit: So tell me . . . if the corporation is a person, does it get a right against self-incrimination?
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
This is one of the most inane things I've read today. I couldn't read any further.

Corporations exist. Duh. They are legal constructs created by state sanction. They provide a HUGE benefit in the form of limited liability to those shareholders of the corporation. If corporations did not exist, claimants against a corporation would get to take the assets of the shareholders.

Individuals do not lose their constitutional rights . . . but the corporation is not an individual who gets constitutional rights.

Edit: So tell me . . . if the corporation is a person, does it get a right against self-incrimination?

Corporations don't exist. This is why they're called fictions. Fictions are not real. This isn't to deny that shareholders in a corporation are generally not liable for the liabilities of the corporation. It is to deny that corporations exist in the same way that shareholders, or you and I, exist.

Corporations can't assert a privilege against self-incrimination. I don't have a problem with that, because corporations don't exist, and denying one individual the privilege of not testifying against another individual doesn't affect a privilege against self-incrimination.
 
Corporations don't exist. This is why they're called fictions. Fictions are not real. This isn't to deny that shareholders in a corporation are generally not liable for the liabilities of the corporation. It is to deny that corporations exist in the same way that shareholders, or you and I, exist.

Corporations can't assert a privilege against self-incrimination. I don't have a problem with that, because corporations don't exist, and denying one individual the privilege of not testifying against another individual doesn't affect a privilege against self-incrimination.
Well that is is great . . . then you won't mind when those things that "don't exist" also don't have free speech rights either.

You painted yourself into the corner there.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
Well that is is great . . . then you won't mind when those things that "don't exist" also don't have free speech rights either.

You painted yourself into the corner there.

Not at all. My theory that corporations don't exist--which is correct, incidentally--requires that the rights of the real, flesh-and-blood people involved be considered. If you and I can join together to speak, then it should make no difference that we form a corporation (or other type of entity) to do so. A restriction on the corporate right to free speech is a restriction on the speech of the owners or operators of the corporation. But saying that I'm not privileged against testifying against you simply because we're both members of a single unincorporated association or corporation has no effect on my privilege against testifying against myself.
 
You're conflating two different things here. An individual always has a certain right to privacy. My point is that the corporation, as an entity, should be able to refuse consent if the police wants to search its property, in addition to whatever rights the individual has.

Which is lunacy. Individual rights should supersede "corporate rights" full stop, because a corporation is not a living person. a casual search turned this up:

An interesting case in this area was K-Mart Corp. v. Trotti, 677 S.W.2d 632 (Tex. App. - Houston [1st Dist.] 1984, writ refused n.r.e.). The employer was sued after searching a locker used by an employee. The employee used her own lock on the locker, and the employer did not require her to give it the combination. The court ruled that the worker had a reasonable expectation of privacy which the employer had violated and that $100,000 in exemplary (punitive) damages was not excessive under the circumstances. Most observers believe the employer would not have lost the case had it had a clear policy informing its workers that the lockers were subject to search at any time and that if private locks were used, a key or the combination must be given to the supervisor.

Kmart Corp vs. Trotti seems to agree with me that the employee's personal right to a "reasonable expectation of privacy" completely trumps the corporation's interests. Even though the employee was using a company locker on company property, Kmart did not have the ability to order a search because the employee's right to privacy and against unreasonable search and seizure takes precedence.

Likewise if I'm driving a company vehicle I have a reasonable expectation of privacy and against search and seizure, and the company can't simply override that and order a search if I've declined one.

The corporation may indeed have limited rights of some kinds, but citizens enjoy full, unrestricted rights that corporations do not, and those win out.

I'm specifically talking about whether they have rights under the 4th - not whether they are going to be liable for something, because this discussion is about whether we should extend constitutional rights to corporations as a single entity. You are contending that there is no right to refuse consent on their behalf, that only employees or managers have that right. Under this theory, anything in your possession as an employee doesn't really belong to the corporation, whether its in your office or in your car, its in your "custody", and the corporation has no rights to it against police searches. That makes absolutely no sense, and isn't consistent with anything in the law.

Yep. My rights as a citizen > the corporation. Now there are some obvious caveats here- if I take the company car and run off to miami with it instead of going to a seminar like I'm supposed to, then obviously I lose any rights here to operate that vehicle and the corporations interests take precedence. likewise if I'm engaged in illegal activity or there is reasonable cause to think I am on company property, or there's reason to think I should NOT enjoy a reasonable expectation of privacy, then I lose out.
 

Piecake

Member
Corporations don't exist. This is why they're called fictions. Fictions are not real. This isn't to deny that shareholders in a corporation are generally not liable for the liabilities of the corporation. It is to deny that corporations exist in the same way that shareholders, or you and I, exist.

Corporations can't assert a privilege against self-incrimination. I don't have a problem with that, because corporations don't exist, and denying one individual the privilege of not testifying against another individual doesn't affect a privilege against self-incrimination.

Are you talking about legal fiction? Someone can correct me if I am wrong because I am no lawyer, but In the case of corporations the fact created (the legal fiction) was that corporations are persons so that the shareholders could be sued for breach of contract. The fiction that was created was that corporations are persons, not that corporations exist. I mean, its pretty damn obvious that they do exist.
 
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