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PoliGAF 2014 |OT| Kay Hagan and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad News

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Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
Perhaps I should have made clearer that my disdain was directed at HuffPo, not the poster. I thought it was clear that I was referring to the HuffPo article, though, since he didn't actually make an argument in his comment.

The HuffPo article argued that there was some inconsistency in Hobby Lobby refusing to cover the challenged contraceptives while continuing to cover Viagra and vasectomies. But Hobby Lobby's complaint with the challenged contraceptives is that they can terminate a pregnancy. While there is some dispute over whether the challenged drugs do or may operate in the way Hobby Lobby feared (though the government did not dispute it), there is absolutely no dispute that Viagra and vasectomies do not. So there's no inconsistency in refusing to cover the former while still covering the latter, and this should be clear to anyone (even the Huffington Post) with a modicum of accurate information about Hobby Lobby's challenge. The HuffPo piece also strongly implied that Hobby Lobby was being sexist by refusing to cover the challenged contraceptives while permitting coverage of Viagra and vasectomies. I responded to that charge, as well.

Now, there appears to be some additional confusion here. The second sentence of your last post doesn't follow from your first. Why would the scope of the Supreme Court's opinion affect anyone's religious beliefs regarding vasectomies? Even ignoring that non sequitur, I never criticized the idea that some people would object to covering other forms of contraception, including vasectomies. My understanding is that Catholics have a very stringent view on the morality of any form of contraception, so it would make sense for them (among others, I'm sure) to challenge a legal requirement to cover any form. I was simply correcting the mistaken view of HuffPo that there was some inconsistency in Hobby Lobby's position.

In your reply to that poster it was not clear that you were referencing the article and not the poster, at all.

And there is no confusion on my part. I am obviously combining the Hobby Lobby case and the recent events surrounding the non-profit because they all basically fall into the same topic. It is my understanding that the Catholic objection to contraception is that they feel it promotes promiscuity and sex outside of wedlock. Yet, 99% of the time whenever any organization or company seems to have these objections due to 'religion' they are at some point found to still provide coverage for vasectomies and never seem to have any qualms about it. Funnily enough, there is only one purpose for vasectomies, yet oral contraceptives actually have roles other than just to prevent pregnancies. To me it seems clear that women are being targeted by the very male oriented religious right.
 
So in some insane hypothetical for shits and giggles, say Dems do extremely well this fall and somehow take back the House.

Do you think they could pass enough legislation, reasonably, to make up for Obama's middle years as President? Or at least change the perception of those middle years?
 

kingkitty

Member
So in some insane hypothetical for shits and giggles, say Dems do extremely well this fall and somehow take back the House.

Do you think they could pass enough legislation, reasonably, to make up for Obama's middle years as President? Or at least change the perception of those middle years?

Idk, unless Dems get 60 seat majority in the Senate, I don't see any cool stuff being passed.
 

alstein

Member
Idk, unless Dems get 60 seat majority in the Senate, I don't see any cool stuff being passed.

If Dems get the house back in the future, I'd expect to see a full nuclear option if the Republicans filibuster again.

Dems getting the House again is when things will change- I think they learned their lesson from 2008.
 
Idk, unless Dems get 60 seat majority in the Senate, I don't see any cool stuff being passed.
Well they could probably pass immigration reform again. Though i could easily see a scenario where the senators who supported it the first time around (when it was assumed the House would neuter it if not kill it outright) would oppose it once it looked like it would actually become law.

I don't think Democrats will kill the filibuster. Actually i think that won't happen until Republicans gain a trifecta.
 

alstein

Member
Well they could probably pass immigration reform again. Though i could easily see a scenario where the senators who supported it the first time around (when it was assumed the House would neuter it if not kill it outright) would oppose it once it looked like it would actually become law.

I don't think Democrats will kill the filibuster. Actually i think that won't happen until Republicans gain a trifecta.

I don't see how Republicans will get all 3 branches without a really terrible Dem candidate (worse than even HIllary), or mass shenanigans (which will in long-run radicalize things more against Republicans)

The Republicans know this as well, they won't want to kill the filibuster. The Dems are currently the group that could do it- as that could really force the Republicans to move to the left to get anything done.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
So in some insane hypothetical for shits and giggles, say Dems do extremely well this fall and somehow take back the House.

Do you think they could pass enough legislation, reasonably, to make up for Obama's middle years as President? Or at least change the perception of those middle years?

I would say if that happened, it'd be taken as a sign that people really hate government obstruction, and a lot of the democrat's work would be to make sure that obstruction never happens again. I still expect all the front runners in the 2016 primaries to promise that as it is anyway, so not a ton of change there, but it would at least speed it up.

As for what obama and the democrats would do with that new power outside of the obvious immigration reform, I would guess it'd go into climate change. A 25 dollar fee per MTCO2E would create 100 billion in per year revenue according to the CBO, and would actually be a real move towards actually fixing climate change. There's also the 30% minimum tax on adjusted gross income over 1 million dollars, also known as the Buffett rule, which the CBO says would bring about 7 billion a year and would make taxes feel at least a little bit more fair. I would say both are pretty high on the democrat wish list outside of the already stated immigration reform.

I would imagine some of that would go to the student loan problem, but most of it would honestly go toward reducing the deficit. I would imagine there's a bit of anxiety about debt lingering around 80%-100% of GDP over a long period of time if only because of how unprecedented that is, and if the economy is better then even Keynes would advocate saving up money.
 

Diablos

Member
I don't think they'd ever have the guts to actually proceed with getting rid of the filibuster if they had the opportunity.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/04/u...-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

When the three busloads of immigrant mothers and children rolled into town for processing at a Border Patrol station this week, they were met by protesters carrying American flags and signs proclaiming “return to sender” as they screamed “go home” and chanted “U.S.A.” Fearing for the safety of the migrants and federal officers, immigration officials decided to reroute the buses to San Diego, an hour south.

And a day after many here celebrated what they saw as a temporary victory, more than a thousand residents packed a high school auditorium on Wednesday night for a town-hall-style meeting that lasted more than four hours, voicing fears about an influx of migrants.

“What happens when they come here with diseases and can overrun our schools? How much is this costing us?” one resident, Jodie Howard, asked the mayor.

“How do you know they are really families and aren’t some kind of gang or drug cartel?” another person asked federal officials.

The reactions have been mixed: Officials in Dallas have said they will welcome thousands of migrant children and have helped to coordinate donations from local residents, but residents of Artesia, N.M., expressed frustration at a meeting this week that immigrants were being placed at a temporary detention center there. They stopped short, however, of blocking the buses.

The city’s motto calls Murrieta “the future of Southern California.” Its official song, which was created for the city’s 21st anniversary, is called “Gem of the Valley” and boasts that “she’s a safe place, where we can live, laugh, learn and play.” Many residents say they came here to escape the kind of crime and urban problems they now fear the immigrants could bring.

Dozens of pro-immigrant residents wearing Mexican soccer jerseys also showed up at the meeting on Wednesday, but mostly sat in silence. Many more waited outside, having arrived too late to be let into the auditorium, which quickly filled to capacity. They held up signs proclaiming, “We are not illegal, we are humans,” as they faced opposing signs that read, “Bus them to the White House.”

“We came here because they are attacking our people, people just like us,” said Ana Larios, 42, a Mexican immigrant who moved to Murrieta with her children from Los Angeles nearly a decade ago. “I never knew people felt this way until now. It’s shocking and embarrassing.”

Mayor Long said he resented accusations of racism, telling the crowd that both his mother and wife are Hispanic. Mr. Long asked his 86-year-old father-in-law to stand, then praised him for immigrating legally.

The mayor promised to notify people when he knew another bus would arrive, perhaps on the Fourth of July. Some residents seemed certain that their Independence Day plans would include a protest at the Border Patrol station.

Bunch of racist
 
The Koch brother of the 90's has died . . .

Billionaire Richard Mellon Scaife dies at 82
Associated Press By JOE MANDAK

PITTSBURGH (AP) — Richard Mellon Scaife, the billionaire heir to the Mellon banking and oil fortune and a newspaper publisher who funded libertarian and conservative causes and various projects to discredit President Bill Clinton, has died. He was 82.
...
The intensely private Scaife became widely known in the 1990s when first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton said her husband was being attacked by a "vast right-wing conspiracy." White House staffers and other supporters suggested Scaife was playing a central role in the attack.

Several foundations controlled by Scaife gave millions of dollars to organizations run by critics of Clinton, including $1.7 million for a project at the conservative American Spectator magazine to dig up information about his role in the Whitewater real estate scandal.

He really was a bad nutcase with too much money to blow.

In the interview, Scaife denied that his money helped support an effort to hurt the president, but he suggested Clinton might be linked to the deaths of dozens of administration officials and associates, including White House Deputy Counsel Vince Foster and onetime Commerce Secretary Ron Brown. Foster's death was determined to be a suicide; Brown died in a plane crash.

Scaife also accused Kenneth Starr, the independent counsel whose investigation led to Clinton's impeachment in the Monica Lewinsky sex scandal, to be a "mole working for the Democrats."

But I didn't know about this .. . apparently he changed a bit in his later years.

Scaife's stance toward the Clintons softened years later. In an interview published in early 2008, he told Vanity Fair magazine he and the former president had a "very pleasant" lunch the previous summer, and "I never met such a charismatic man in my whole life."

Clinton gave Scaife an autographed copy of his book, and Scaife said he later sent $100,000 to the Clinton Global Initiative. (Scaife also said philandering "is something that Bill Clinton and I have in common.")

Scaife's newspaper also endorsed Hillary Rodham Clinton's bid for president in 2008.

Despite funding many causes dear to conservatives, Scaife was libertarian on many social issues. He supported Planned Parenthood and abortion rights, supported legalizing same-sex marriage and marijuana, and opposed the invasion of Iraq in 2003.

Scaife bought the Tribune-Review in suburban Pittsburgh in 1969, using its editorial pages to trumpet his views.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/billionaire-richard-mellon-scaife-dies-82-114544541--finance.html

Maybe the Koch brothers . . .who are Libertarians and fans of science . . . will eventually see the error in their ways and start funding social and science issues they have instead of just the bare-knuckles capitalism stuff.
 

Oh look . . . he was saying the opposite.

And it was here in Europe, through centuries of struggle, through war and enlightenment, repression and revolution, that a particular set of ideals began to emerge, the belief that through conscience and free will, each of us has the right to live as we choose, the belief that power is derived from the consent of the governed and that laws and institutions should be established to protect that understanding.

And those ideas eventually inspired a band of colonialists across an ocean, and they wrote them into the founding documents that still guide America today, including the simple truth that all men, and women, are created equal.

But those ideals have also been tested, here in Europe and around the world. Those ideals have often been threatened by an older, more traditional view of power. This alternative vision argues that ordinary men and women are too small-minded to govern their own affairs, that order and progress can only come when individuals surrender their rights to an all-powerful sovereign. Often this alternative vision roots itself in the notion that by virtue of race or faith or ethnicity, some are inherently superior to others and that individual identity must be defined by us versus them, or that national greatness must flow not by what people stand for, but what they are against.
The stuff from that video is what he is using as a BAD scenario that we want to avoid.

Do the dumbfucks that propagate that shit EVER get mad at the people that are lying to do them?
 
Oh look . . . he was saying the opposite.


The stuff from that video is what he is using as a BAD scenario that we want to avoid.

Do the dumbfucks that propagate that shit EVER get mad at the people that are lying to do them?

Absolutely not. I have a coworker who showed me this because he knows I'm liberal, I spent 10 seconds looking online for the original transcript and showed it to him. He was more upset with me for making him look dumb than he was at the creator of the video for lying to everyone.

I have a "bad" reputation for fact-checking people's statements at the office, like I'm the loony one for wanting to learn more instead of just making outrageous claims.
 
It is weird that people tend to be disappointed/angry when you tell them that the horrible thing they were afraid of isn't actually true.
 
It is weird that people tend to be disappointed/angry when you tell them that the horrible thing they were afraid of isn't actually true.
I think this happened at a town hall when healthcare reform was a thing and someone told their congressman that PPACA would give healthcare to illegal immigrants. The congressman responded by pointing out the section that explicitly bars illegal immigrants from receiving subsidies under PPACA and read the section aloud, and he was booed for it.

Of course, this also happened to Obama and the heckler was a fucking congressman, so there's little standard for decorum there.

People don't care about facts once they've picked a side - unfortunately for conservatives the facts tend to be in favor of liberal ideology.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
The problem I have with Common Core is they have stopped teaching mathematics. Word problems and answers have replaced actual calculations. When I help my daughter with her homework, I first have to solve the problem mathematically, then figure out how to make a word answer out of it. It would be one thing if it easily conveyed the correct answer, but it seems to make it harder. I've thought it could be an attempt to make the curriculum so that any teacher, not just someone trained in math, could teach it.
As a student of physics, this discussion is bizarre because the transition between worded scenario to physical principles to mathematical concepts to raw calculation back to physical principles to a worded answer is pretty much the nature of the game. After all, models are great but sometimes you'd hope to actually apply them to something.

On the other hand, developing mathematical abstraction is fundamentally important too, but that's algebra and wouldn't be covered in grade school anyway as I understand it.
 

Vlad

Member
Absolutely not. I have a coworker who showed me this because he knows I'm liberal, I spent 10 seconds looking online for the original transcript and showed it to him. He was more upset with me for making him look dumb than he was at the creator of the video for lying to everyone.

I have a "bad" reputation for fact-checking people's statements at the office, like I'm the loony one for wanting to learn more instead of just making outrageous claims.

Did the Republicans ever get called out for their constant out-of-context quoting of Obama's "you didn't build that" line during the last election?
 

Gotchaye

Member
Did the Republicans ever get called out for their constant out-of-context quoting of Obama's "you didn't build that" line during the last election?

People kept telling them that they were quoting Obama out of context and should be ashamed, but all they heard was "Obama... should be ashamed".
 
Did the Republicans ever get called out for their constant out-of-context quoting of Obama's "you didn't build that" line during the last election?

What, are you stupid? Of course not. The only reason they stopped running with that is something else came along.

Republicans really want to believe Obama is as nasty as they imagine him to believe, and will cling to any image that reflects that.
 
Did the Republicans ever get called out for their constant out-of-context quoting of Obama's "you didn't build that" line during the last election?
nASzXGz.gif
 

pigeon

Banned
If the economy keeps improving at this (still relatively anemic, but sufficient) pace, and PhoenixDark keeps expressing confidence in GOP candidates (which, based on Walker and Christie, seems to cause them to get threatened with indictments), Hillary 440+ EV is looking more and more like an actual possibility.

I think Paul Ryan is going to end up as the nominee, via process of elimination.
 
I will absolutely lose my shit if the Democratic candidate in 2016 wins that many EVs

(I will lose twice as much shit if it's accompanied by a House wave the size of 2006)
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
If the economy keeps improving at this (still relatively anemic, but sufficient) pace, and PhoenixDark keeps expressing confidence in GOP candidates (which, based on Walker and Christie, seems to cause them to get threatened with indictments), Hillary 440+ EV is looking more and more like an actual possibility.

I think Paul Ryan is going to end up as the nominee, via process of elimination.

Paul Ryan got schooled by Diamond Joe Biden, Hilary would have him in tears by the end of the first question.
 

Vlad

Member
People kept telling them that they were quoting Obama out of context and should be ashamed, but all they heard was "Obama... should be ashamed".

What, are you stupid? Of course not. The only reason they stopped running with that is something else came along.

Republicans really want to believe Obama is as nasty as they imagine him to believe, and will cling to any image that reflects that.


Yeah, I didn't expect as much, but I was kind of hoping that it was something I just missed in the news.
 

Aylinato

Member
If the economy keeps improving at this (still relatively anemic, but sufficient) pace, and PhoenixDark keeps expressing confidence in GOP candidates (which, based on Walker and Christie, seems to cause them to get threatened with indictments), Hillary 440+ EV is looking more and more like an actual possibility.

I think Paul Ryan is going to end up as the nominee, via process of elimination.


Instead of racists we will have sexists come out of the woodwork.
 
Instead of racists we will have sexists come out of the woodwork.

expect plenty of:

1. GOP operative or congressman says something blatantly sexist/ugly about Clinton
2. Traditional and social media reacts with outrage, operative/congressman is forced to apologize
3. Fox News host or another congressman points out how no one said anything about Hillary's "sexist" defense of a rapist in 1975.
 

benjipwns

Banned
expect plenty of:

1. GOP operative or congressman says something blatantly sexist/ugly about Clinton
2. Traditional and social media reacts with outrage, operative/congressman is forced to apologize
3. Fox News host or another congressman points out how no one said anything about Hillary's "sexist" defense of a rapist in 1975.
More like Hillary's defense of a serial rapist in the 1990's.

Maybe the Koch Brothers can drag a few hundred dollar bills through some trailer parks and see what they pick up.
 

Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
expect plenty of:

1. GOP operative or congressman says something blatantly sexist/ugly about Clinton
2. Traditional and social media reacts with outrage, operative/congressman is forced to apologize
3. Fox News host or another congressman points out how no one said anything about Hillary's "sexist" defense of a rapist in 1975.

4. Reverse sexism charges against Hillary
 
I will absolutely lose my shit if the Democratic candidate in 2016 wins that many EVs

(I will lose twice as much shit if it's accompanied by a House wave the size of 2006)
As much as I wouldn't want this to happen I'd laugh my ass off if Hillary won 440+ EVs while the GOP retained their House majority. Especially since Democrats will probably have 56-57 Senate seats after the 2016 election.

I can't wait to start making 270towin maps on a regular basis again. I'll probably do a crayon map again for Senate races this year as we get closer to Election Day.

FWIW right now I'd go with something like this:

Senate2014MapJuly42014_zpsa8fb148f.png


Though Landrieu could win in the run-off. We'll see.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
I don't think this works. Clearly people are terrible at figuring out what actually represents a substantial burden to their religious liberty.

I'm not talking about whether something is a substantial burden on the exercise of religion (and the test involves a burden on the "exercise of religion," not "religious liberty"). The line I'm referring to is the one which defines, to quote Alito, "the circumstances under which it is wrong for a person to perform an act that is innocent in itself but that has the effect of enabling or facilitating the commission of an immoral act by another." The Court doesn't have to accept at face value a claimed burden on religious exercise, and has refused to do so in the past. But the courts will not take upon themselves the task of determining, for instance, at what point the Bible really makes one complicit in sin for an otherwise innocent act.

I don't think it would take long for the courts to dismiss any lawsuit seeking to use the RFRA (or a state-law variant, such as several states have) to prevent a state from recognizing same-sex marriage. The mere fact of state recognition is not a substantial burden on anyone's exercise of religion.

I'd been assuming that general taxes of which some small/indeterminate amount goes to things people object to can clearly not be a substantial burden, or at least must always be something like the least restrictive option (by which we just mean the least burdensome).

The Court has addressed this question in United States v. Lee. Alito discusses that case in some detail in Hobby Lobby:

Alito in Hobby Lobby said:
Our holding in Lee turned primarily on the special problems associated with a national system of taxation. We noted that “[t]he obligation to pay the social security tax initially is not fundamentally different from the obligation to pay income taxes.” 455 U. S., at 260. Based on that premise,we explained that it was untenable to allow individuals to seek exemptions from taxes based on religious objections to particular Government expenditures: “If, for example, a religious adherent believes war is a sin, and if a certain percentage of the federal budget can be identified as devoted to war-related activities, such individuals would have a similarly valid claim to be exempt from paying that percentage of the income tax.” Ibid. We observed that “[t]he tax system could not function if denominations were allowed to challenge the tax system because tax payments were spent in a manner that violates their religious belief.” Ibid.; see O Centro, 546 U. S., at 435.

Lee was a free-exercise, not a RFRA, case, but if the issue in Lee were analyzed under the RFRA framework, the fundamental point would be that there simply is no less restrictive alternative to the categorical requirement to pay taxes. Because of the enormous variety of government expenditures funded by tax dollars, allowing tax- payers to withhold a portion of their tax obligations on religious grounds would lead to chaos.

Yet, 99% of the time whenever any organization or company seems to have these objections due to 'religion' they are at some point found to still provide coverage for vasectomies and never seem to have any qualms about it.

I doubt this figure would stand up to scrutiny, but I'm writing this part of my post after what comes before and what follows, and feel it's long enough. I may revisit this later.

(posted in the "Based Ginsburg.." thread. This is going to get interesting.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/04/u...aception-rule-for-christian-college.html?_r=1

I'm having a hard time not viewing that dissent as blatant demagoguery.

Here's the order in Little Sisters of the Poor from January, from which no justice dissented:

If the employer applicants inform the Secretary of Health and Human Services in writing that they are non-profit organizations that hold themselves out as religious and have religious objections to providing coverage for contraceptive services, the respondents are enjoined from enforcing against the applicants the challenged provisions of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act and related regulations pending final disposition of the appeal by the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit. To meet the condition for injunction pending appeal, applicants need not use the form prescribed by the Government and need not send copies to third-party administrators. The Court issues this order based on all of the circumstances of the case, and this order should not be construed as an expression of the Court’s views on the merits.

Here's the order in Wheaton College, just issued:

If the applicant informs the Secretary of Health and Human Services in writing that it is a nonprofit organization that holds itself out as religious and has religious objections to providing coverage for contraceptive services, the respondents are enjoined from enforcing against the applicant the challenged provisions of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act and related regulations pending final disposition of appellate review. To meet the condition for injunction pending appeal, the applicant need not use the form prescribed by the Government, EBSA Form 700, and need not send copies to health insurance issuers or third-party administrators. . . . In light of the foregoing, this order should not be construed as an expression of the Court's views on the merits.

These orders are substantively identical.

Note also Sotomayor's disingenuous characterization of what Hobby Lobby had to say about the non-profit accommodation. Here's what the Court in Hobby Lobby had to say on that point:

Alito in Hobby Lobby said:
We do not decide today whether an approach of this type complies with RFRA for purposes of all religious claims.

Here's Ginsburg in dissent in Hobby Lobby, joined by Sotomayor, Kagan, and Breyer, recognizing that the Court doesn't say whether the accommodation would suffice under the RFRA:

Ginsburg Dissent in Hobby Lobby said:
In stark contrast to the Court’s initial emphasis on this accommodation, it ultimately declines to decide whether the highlighted accommodation is even lawful.

Yet, in her dissent from the Wheaton College order, Sotomayor writes:

Sotomayor Dissent in Wheaton College Order said:
Those who are bound by our decisions usually believe they can take us at our word. Not so today. After expressly relying on the availability of the religious-nonprofit accommodation to hold that the contraceptive coverage requirement violates RFRA as applied to closely held for-profit corporations, the Court now, as the dissent in Hobby Lobby feared it might, see ante, at 29–30 (GINSBURG, J., dissenting), retreats from that position.

Ask yourself: from what "position" is the Court now "retreating"? Is it retreating from the position that it isn't deciding "whether an approach of this type complies with RFRA for purposes of all religious claims"? Of course not. Because its order "should not be construed as an expression of the Court's views on the merits," this leaves the question of whether the accommodation can survive an RFRA challenge undecided, just as it was before this order. Sotomayor is relying on the ignorance of her readers (and the complicity of partisan media in maintaining that ignorance) to stoke the election-year flames of the "war on women."

But, ignoring Sotomayor's dissent, is this order an extension of Hobby Lobby? Does it show that the holding in Hobby Lobby is broader than it was claimed to be? No. It's an injunctive order designed to preserve the status quo ante until the claims can be fully adjudicated. Nor is it an order pitting "religious freedoms" against "women's rights," as the NYT so ignorantly claimed. The order says this: Wheaton College doesn't have to use EBSA Form 700, but can notify HHS that it qualifies for the accommodation in any form of written notice. That's it.
 
expect plenty of:

1. GOP operative or congressman says something blatantly sexist/ugly about Clinton
2. Traditional and social media reacts with outrage, operative/congressman is forced to apologize
3. Fox News host or another congressman points out how no one said anything about Hillary's "sexist" defense of a rapist in 1975.

I'm willing to bet someone's going to say some stupid shit about menopause.
 
I'm not talking about whether something is a substantial burden on the exercise of religion (and the test involves a burden on the "exercise of religion," not "religious liberty"). The line I'm referring to is the one which defines, to quote Alito, "the circumstances under which it is wrong for a person to perform an act that is innocent in itself but that has the effect of enabling or facilitating the commission of an immoral act by another." The Court doesn't have to accept at face value a claimed burden on religious exercise, and has refused to do so in the past. But the courts will not take upon themselves the task of determining, for instance, at what point the Bible really makes one complicit in sin for an otherwise innocent act.

I don't think it would take long for the courts to dismiss any lawsuit seeking to use the RFRA (or a state-law variant, such as several states have) to prevent a state from recognizing same-sex marriage. The mere fact of state recognition is not a substantial burden on anyone's exercise of religion.



The Court has addressed this question in United States v. Lee. Alito discusses that case in some detail in Hobby Lobby:





I doubt this figure would stand up to scrutiny, but I'm writing this part of my post after what comes before and what follows, and feel it's long enough. I may revisit this later.



I'm having a hard time not viewing that dissent as blatant demagoguery.

Here's the order in Little Sisters of the Poor from January, from which no justice dissented:



Here's the order in Wheaton College, just issued:



These orders are substantively identical.

Note also Sotomayor's disingenuous characterization of what Hobby Lobby had to say about the non-profit accommodation. Here's what the Court in Hobby Lobby had to say on that point:



Here's Ginsburg in dissent in Hobby Lobby, joined by Sotomayor, Kagan, and Breyer, recognizing that the Court doesn't say whether the accommodation would suffice under the RFRA:



Yet, in her dissent from the Wheaton College order, Sotomayor writes:



Ask yourself: from what "position" is the Court now "retreating"? Is it retreating from the position that it isn't deciding "whether an approach of this type complies with RFRA for purposes of all religious claims"? Of course not. Because its order "should not be construed as an expression of the Court's views on the merits," this leaves the question of whether the accommodation can survive an RFRA challenge undecided, just as it was before this order. Sotomayor is relying on the ignorance of her readers (and the complicity of partisan media in maintaining that ignorance) to stoke the election-year flames of the "war on women."

But, ignoring Sotomayor's dissent, is this order an extension of Hobby Lobby? Does it show that the holding in Hobby Lobby is broader than it was claimed to be? No. It's an injunctive order designed to preserve the status quo ante until the claims can be fully adjudicated. Nor is it an order pitting "religious freedoms" against "women's rights," as the NYT so ignorantly claimed. The order says this: Wheaton College doesn't have to use EBSA Form 700, but can notify HHS that it qualifies for the accommodation in any form of written notice. That's it.
This is why lawyering is a horrible profession.

You can talk your way out of anything with enough bs.
 

SmokeMaxX

Member
If the economy keeps improving at this (still relatively anemic, but sufficient) pace, and PhoenixDark keeps expressing confidence in GOP candidates (which, based on Walker and Christie, seems to cause them to get threatened with indictments), Hillary 440+ EV is looking more and more like an actual possibility.

I think Paul Ryan is going to end up as the nominee, via process of elimination.

Bah why did Intrade have to stop serving US customers :(
I only got one Presidential Election out of it!
 

Tamanon

Banned
Around me in this park are Sikhs, Muslims, Dominicans, Mexicans, and Southerners. Kids playing with each other waiting for fireworks. America can be a great place to be sometimes.
 
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