• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

PoliGAF 2014 |OT| Kay Hagan and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad News

Status
Not open for further replies.

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
I guess now is as good a time as any to re-post my summary of the Halbig argument (from way, way back in October 2013):

The argument being made by those challenging the IRS rule extending tax credits to federal exchanges is that the statute limits the availability of tax credits to state exchanges, and the IRS doesn't have the authority to contradict a statute by regulation.

The argument goes something like this (I'm summarizing this article):

1.) Section 1311 of the PPACA provides rules for states setting up an American Health Benefit Exchange. While the section provides that states "shall" set up those exchanges, the federal government can't command states to participate in federal programs.

2.) Recognizing that it couldn't actually command states to establish exchanges, Congress, in section 1321, requires the federal Dept. of Health and Human Services to establish exchanges in states that fail (or refuse) to do so in compliance with 1311.

3.) Section 1401 amends the Internal Revenue Code to provide a tax credit for certain taxpayers. The credit is equal to "the sum of the premium assistance amounts . . . with respect to all coverage months of the taxpayer" during the year. A "coverage month," in turn, is defined as any month if, "as of the first day of such month the taxpayer . . . is covered by a qualified health plan . . . that was enrolled in through an Exchange established by the State under section 1311" (and if the taxpayer pays the premium for coverage for such month). If an exchange wasn't established by the state under section 1311, then there can be no "coverage month," and if there is no "coverage month," then there can be no credit.

4.) Section 1513 amends the Internal Revenue Code to provide penalties to "applicable large employers" who fail to provide health insurance--this is the "employer mandate." However, the penalty is only triggered if "at least one full-time employee of the applicable large employer has . . . enrolled . . . in a qualified health plan with respect to which an applicable premium tax credit or cost-sharing reduction is allowed or paid with respect to the employee." "Applicable premium tax credit" refers to the credit created under section 1401; "cost-sharing reduction" refers to a cost-sharing reduction under section 1402. 1402 specifically states that "no cost-sharing reduction shall be allowed with respect to coverage for any month unless the month is a coverage month[.]" Hence, if an exchange wasn't established by the state under section 1311, then there can be no "coverage month," and if there is no "coverage month," then (a) there can be no credit (as mentioned above); (b) there can be no cost-sharing reduction; and (c) there is no employer mandate for employers in that state.

5.) Section 1501 imposes the "individual mandate," but exempts certain taxpayers who can't afford insurance. In determining whether a person can afford insurance, the law takes into account any credit allowed under section 1401. For at least some taxpayers--the article I'm summarizing estimates about 12 million--the availability of the credit would push them out of this exemption, and so impose a penalty. But, if there is no credit available, then those 12 million would not be subject to the penalty.

6.) Despite the plain language of the law, the IRS rule purports to extend the tax credits to individuals in states where the federal government has established an exchange. In effect, the IRS has (a) granted tax credits that Congress has not authorized and (b) raised taxes that Congress has not imposed. Regardless of whether you think credits should be available on federal exchanges, who can argue with the proposition that the IRS should not craft regulations that contradict acts of Congress?

This argument, when properly understood, is pretty persuasive. That's not to say that it will win, but it's well worth your time considering the actual argument being made rather than just a newspaper report summarizing it.

FAKE EDIT: benjipwns, that is the worst poem ever.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Their argument is that it's not a typo, it was intentional and then ignored when reality happened.

And it's absolutely crazy to say that anyone involved in creating that bill intended for people on the federal exchange to not get subsidies. There is absolutely zero indication that would lead anyone to even consider that possibility, outside of the convoluted technicalities of the bill's text.

Not that the supreme court is above absolutely crazy decisions, but that logic really is quite crazy.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
And it's absolutely crazy to say that anyone involved in creating that bill intended for people on the federal exchange to not get subsidies. There is absolutely zero indication that would lead anyone to even consider that possibility, outside of the convoluted technicalities of the bill's text.

Not that the supreme court is above absolutely crazy decisions, but that logic really is quite crazy.

Actually, the logic here is very simple: Congress created certain incentives for states to establish their own exchanges. One of those incentives was the availability of subsidies on the state-run exchanges, which residents in non-compliant states would not be entitled to. As a result of these incentives, Congress expected every state to establish an exchange.

Fin.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Actually, the logic here is very simple: Congress created certain incentives for states to establish their own exchanges. One of those incentives was the availability of subsidies on the state-run exchanges, which residents in non-compliant states would not be entitled to. As a result of these incentives, Congress expected every state to establish an exchange.

Fin.

The evidence of that intent being...
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
The evidence of that intent being...

The best evidence of Congressional intent is always the statutory text. I've re-posted a summary of the statutory argument a couple of posts up.

The Halbig challengers point to some legislative history that they claim supports them, but I don't find the legislative history evidence particularly compelling. Still, if you're interested, here's their appellate brief.

EDIT: I may summarize some of the legislative history they point to later, but for now, I'm off to bed.
 
Courts are supposed to strain to read statutory provisions to be consistent, so that laws make sense. The obvious solution here is that in providing the federal government the ability to establish an exchange for States that refuse to do so, Congress intended for the federal exchanges to be equivalent to the State exchanges. Therefore, even though the subsidy provision only refers to State exchanges, the federal exchanges incorporate that provision by implied reference.

That would be the sane and logical way to read the PPACA. Courts are really not supposed to blow up statutory schemes based on technical interpretations. Moreover, the an agency's interpretation of statutes gets deference if the statutory language is at all ambiguous under the Chevron case, which is clearly the case here. So the IRS's interpretation of this aspect of PPACA should be left alone.

This lawsuit seems ridiculous.
 

Diablos

Member
You won't have to worry about the ACA anymore for much longer considering the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals will gut it in a week or two.

Only Hillary can save us.
What? Everything I read says the other court in DC is going to reverse the three judge panel and their likely decision to rule in favor of cutting IRS subsidies. The question is if it'll go back to the SCOTUS. I think that's the real concern here.

Given that's true, the question still remains of why did Roberts change his mind? I would say it wasn't that he all of a sudden saw the light to the other side of the argument that the mandate was actually a tax, but instead saw how bad it would look for the court to basically overturn something so big and political on such shaky grounds. And that reasoning applies even more here, because we're talking about something that millions of people are hugely benefiting from, and an argument that could only be described as a technicality or a loophole, which isn't exactly the public's favorite legal concept.
Like I said, he changed his mind because maybe he figured it would be more effective to chip away at it from the outside. By disabling Medicaid for a great deal of people he set up the groundwork. Subsidies will follow suit if this lawsuit succeeds; blue states will want it and red states won't. Think of it as a precedent of sorts.

Hell, I would even bet the establishment republicans would be asking Roberts to not put the responsibility on the state republicans to keep or take away subsidies which are already going out.
Why? If this succeeds before Obama leaves office it'll look like it is his fault (to the average American).
 
Diablos did you forget to take your pills or is that time of the month where we are all supposed to do that ritual dance around the fire singing the sky is falling
 

Diablos

Member
Diablos did you forget to take your pills or is that time of the month where we are all supposed to do that ritual dance around the fire singing the sky is falling
The article speaks for itself. Seems to be another tough slog for the Affordable Care Act. Everyone should be Diablosing.
 

Wilsongt

Member
Diablos did you forget to take your pills or is that time of the month where we are all supposed to do that ritual dance around the fire singing the sky is falling

Q7OGkBq.gif
 

Diablos

Member
smh you guys, I'm more upset about figuring out a way to get my GPU to stop overheating. About to shut down again and reapply thermal paste for the third time.
 

AntoneM

Member
It seems here that to establish an exchange means "payed to be built" more or less, right?

Could a state not simply pass legislation saying that the federal exchanges were built with federal dollars and the citizens of this state are citizens of the federal government; we therefore establish the federal exchange as the official state exchange?

Or, does establish mean "operating" as in the state must operate the exchange? Would that not get into the issue of who is actually operating it if it is not being run by state employees?


I'm probably thinking about this wrong.
 
Saw the lolgop twitter make a good point. With hobby lobby case and a soon to be renewed push for contraception coverage does the GOP really want to stand for that with hillary and 2016? They have the religious vote. They need the women and they're going to give that up and actively antagonize them because their base wants their religious sex views written in the law.

And about this stupid ACA case. The rest of the bill points to the administrations interpretation and even if its ambiguous there is the fact that house dems WHO WROTE AND PASSED THE BILL have clearly stated the intent. Its like overturning a law because a misplaced comma except you have the person who wrote it saying they made a mistake.
 

benjipwns

Banned
even if its ambiguous there is the fact that house dems WHO WROTE AND PASSED THE BILL have clearly stated the intent. Its like overturning a law because a misplaced comma except you have the person who wrote it saying they made a mistake.
It sure is a good thing we passed it, because it seems like we are going to keep finding out what's in it forever.
 

Diablos

Member
And about this stupid ACA case. The rest of the bill points to the administrations interpretation and even if its ambiguous there is the fact that house dems WHO WROTE AND PASSED THE BILL have clearly stated the intent. Its like overturning a law because a misplaced comma except you have the person who wrote it saying they made a mistake.
It just might happen. Lol. AMERICA
 
It sure is a good thing we passed it, because it seems like we are going to keep finding out what's in it forever.

You sound like one of those "one page bill" people. Laws are complicated. I've seen people write them. Mistakes are made its not an indictment of lawmaking, their are typos in the constitution.

And people know whats in it. Where are or have there been there 'surprises'?

It just might happen. Lol. AMERICA
it won't
 
Saw the lolgop twitter make a good point. With hobby lobby case and a soon to be renewed push for contraception coverage does the GOP really want to stand for that with hillary and 2016? They have the religious vote. They need the women and they're going to give that up and actively antagonize them because their base wants their religious sex views written in the law.

This. It could really backfire if a whole bunch of cases flood the court as people look more exemptions. I think they should adopt my framing and point out that conservatives are helping the top 1% enforce their religious views on other people that may not share those views.


Between Citizens United, Hobby Lobby, and McCutchen; the conservative wing of the court is sure spending a lot of time granting decisions that only affect (and help) the top 1% . . . that poor oppressed minority.
 

benjipwns

Banned
One question is why did Congress not just allow states to maintain their own exchanges and regulations but intentionally provided billions in grants and subsidies to encourage and help get them off the ground if they were going to setup an identical parallel system and then why were people upset when states chose not to create their own exchanges that they'd have to fully fund themselves starting in 2015? And why would Congress create the "threat" of withholding tax credits and subsidies if they didn't think it would spur the states to setup exchanges? Why would the CBO work off the assumption that every state was going to setup an exchange and thus receive the credits and subsidies?

(Last one's a joke, we all know why the CBO publishes those funny reports. They're for time travelers from the future.)

You sound like one of those "one page bill" people. Laws are complicated. I've seen people write them. Mistakes are made its not an indictment of lawmaking, their are typos in the constitution.
Yeah, they're complicated (and delegated) on purpose so that nobody can know what the law is beforehand. Gives the state a free hand to pick and choose.

But in any case. This specific case isn't really a typo, it's in multiple sections of the bill because they assumed states would create the exchanges rather than give it up to the feds because the states normally let the feds pull that bullshit on them. This instance had too many state officials who wanted to/needed to "fight ObamaCare" so could not just bend over like normal.

This is more like the Bush EPA's "correcting" the Clean Air Act with its regulations rather than having the actual legal authority fixed.

I still stand by what I said above about this getting killed when the court goes en banc. And if the Supreme's even touch it (since you only need four), it'll get knocked down because there is no way they want to mess with one of their wild cards outside of Thomas.

Yeah, we never should have passed that constitution, we're STILL trying to figure that one out. lol
They rushed it through in secret, imposing it on parties that did not consent and never had addressed the big hole in the setup they were warned about.
 

pigeon

Banned
I appreciate the reminder from benji and Metaphoreus as to why this is (ostensibly) a real legal issue.

One question is why did Congress not just allow states to maintain their own exchanges and regulations but intentionally provided billions in grants and subsidies to encourage and help get them off the ground if they were going to setup an identical parallel system and then why were people upset when states chose not to create their own exchanges that they'd have to fully fund themselves starting in 2015? And why would Congress create the "threat" of withholding tax credits and subsidies if they didn't think it would spur the states to setup exchanges? Why would the CBO work off the assumption that every state was going to setup an exchange and thus receive the credits and subsidies?

Well, you and I know the answer to this one -- Congress did indeed assume that states would set up their own exchanges, and the federal exchange was meant to be a stopgap for states that were running late. It was never really intended to become the primary source of coverage for most states.

But it doesn't necessarily follow that Congress intended for that stopgap exchange to not have the power to grant subsidies. Indeed, if the federal exchange were intended to cover a year or two while states were getting off the ground, that makes it even more clear that it was intended to be able to do the full job of a state exchange, including provide subsidies.

They rushed it through in secret, imposing it on parties that did not consent and never had addressed the big hole in the setup they were warned about.

We're still talking about the constitution, right?
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Remember that the states setting up their own exchanges came from the right, who was afraid that a federal exchange would be a trojan horse into a single payer. The left wanted the exchange to be on the federal level from the start. What was surprising was that after giving the right that concession, republican states ended up forcing the federal exchange to take over for them anyway.

So the idea that this was written in a way to twist the arm of the states that wanted to own the exchange themselves is weird.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
Courts are supposed to strain to read statutory provisions to be consistent, so that laws make sense. The obvious solution here is that in providing the federal government the ability to establish an exchange for States that refuse to do so, Congress intended for the federal exchanges to be equivalent to the State exchanges. Therefore, even though the subsidy provision only refers to State exchanges, the federal exchanges incorporate that provision by implied reference.

That would be the sane and logical way to read the PPACA. Courts are really not supposed to blow up statutory schemes based on technical interpretations. Moreover, the an agency's interpretation of statutes gets deference if the statutory language is at all ambiguous under the Chevron case, which is clearly the case here. So the IRS's interpretation of this aspect of PPACA should be left alone.

This lawsuit seems ridiculous.

Courts are bound to give the text of a statute its ordinary meaning. Where the text of a statute is clear, that's the end of a court's analysis--the statute should be applied as written. Your "obvious solution" ignores the text in favor of speculating at what Congress would have done, given some information about what it has done. That's not statutory interpretation; it's legislation.

The interpretation offered by the Halbig challengers is not a "technical interpretation" merely because the challengers must follow the text through its complicated structure. That's just in the nature of interpreting a complicated statute.

As for Chevron deference, the challengers offer the following four arguments:
  1. ACA is not ambiguous on this point. The phrase "Exchange established by the State under section 1311" can't be interpreted as including an Exchange established by the HHS under section 1321. An agency interpretation of a statute that is contrary to the unambiguous meaning of the statute is entitled to no deference.
  2. While the IRS has authority to administer and interpret the subsidy provision of the IRC (Title 26 of the U.S. Code), it has no authority to interpret the meaning of the "Exchange established by the State under section 1311" provision, codified in Title 42 of the U.S. Code. Only the HHS has authority to interpret that language. As such, the IRS rule is not entitled to Chevron deference.
  3. Chevron deference does not apply where a canon of statutory construction would foreclose the interpretation adopted by an agency. Here, tax credits "must be unambiguously proved." Because this rule would work to resolve any ambiguity against the availability of a tax credit, there would remain no ambiguity for the IRS to resolve, and to which Chevron requires deference.
  4. Finally, even if the statute is ambiguous, the IRS rule is not a reasonable construction of the ACA's text. Therefore, it would still not be owed Chevron deference.
But it doesn't necessarily follow that Congress intended for that stopgap exchange to not have the power to grant subsidies. Indeed, if the federal exchange were intended to cover a year or two while states were getting off the ground, that makes it even more clear that it was intended to be able to do the full job of a state exchange, including provide subsidies.

Of course it doesn't necessarily follow. But the argument explaining why Congress would enact a statute restricting credits to states is secondary. It's to rebut the argument that it would be absurd to read the statute in that way. The primary argument is based on the text of the statute. That is, the question is not really, "Why would they do this or that?" but, "Have they done this or that?" And that question is answered by reading the statute, not attempting to divine the subjective intentions of the individual members of Congress who voted for the ACA.
 
I wonder if Roberts' goal all along was to knock down the state exchanges, thus resulting in multiple states relying on the federal exchanges. And then once that happened and this case wound up back in front of the SC...he'd join the conservatives and strike down the law. That way it doesn't look like the court is meddling in an election (2012), but ultimately the conservatives get to kill the biggest liberal legislation in a generation due to a technical typo.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
I wonder if Roberts' goal all along was to knock down the state exchanges, thus resulting in multiple states relying on the federal exchanges. And then once that happened and this case wound up back in front of the SC...he'd join the conservatives and strike down the law. That way it doesn't look like the court is meddling in an election (2012), but ultimately the conservatives get to kill the biggest liberal legislation in a generation due to a technical typo.

As a legal matter, Halbig doesn't challenge the ACA. There's no risk of it being struck down as a result of this lawsuit.
 

Gotchaye

Member
I wonder if Roberts' goal all along was to knock down the state exchanges, thus resulting in multiple states relying on the federal exchanges. And then once that happened and this case wound up back in front of the SC...he'd join the conservatives and strike down the law. That way it doesn't look like the court is meddling in an election (2012), but ultimately the conservatives get to kill the biggest liberal legislation in a generation due to a technical typo.

Politically, I don't really see how this works to conservatives' advantage. Suppose the federal exchange subsidies get struck down. Now you've effectively raised taxes significantly on a bunch of people in various red states. Conservatives can go two ways with this.

They can blame this particular situation on Obamacare, but this is really easy to respond to - the Obama administration was fighting against the removal of these subsidies, and anyway Congress could pass a bill that undoes the Court's decision in a heartbeat, if only Republicans actually cared about lowering taxes on the middle class. This plays right into "Republicans only care about rich people" and "Congress refuses to take obvious action to address what even Republicans agree are problems" frames that Democrats were already going to be running on. This would be an amazingly good example of "conservatives are sabotaging government to make it look like government can't work". Again, this would be a tax increase for a bunch of people; this is changing policy which is already in place.

They can mostly ignore the effects of this, and refer to it in passing as part of an overall "Obamacare is a disaster" narrative. The marginal political value of this is limited, used this way. But if Democrats are insufficiently aggressive about pointing out that Obamacare is only hurting people in red states because red states won't let it help people, maybe they can get somewhere with it, nationally. However, they're going to have problems in elections in these red states if they lack a strong, coordinated response to Democrats arguing that Republican state politicians are costing lots of people in these states a bunch of money. "Elect me and I'll establish a state health care exchange which is just like the federal one you're using now except you'll be paying hundreds of dollars less per month for health insurance, just like you were in 2014 before Republicans made you pay more" is going to be a tempting offer.

I just don't see the endgame here. What's the step between "screw over a bunch of people in a really obvious way" and "win elections"? Is the hope that without federal subsidies a state can win an exemption from Obamacare as a whole because it's too coercive?
 

789shadow

Banned
I just don't see the endgame here. What's the step between "screw over a bunch of people in a really obvious way" and "win elections"? Is the hope that without federal subsidies a state can win an exemption from Obamacare as a whole because it's too coercive?
So basically Republicans just have to do the same thing they always do.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
You are that confident, eh?

Don't misunderstand me. The government may lose the case, but the statute isn't at risk of being struck down. Halbig challenges a rule adopted by the IRS, not the statute itself.

Does this man have no self-awareness at all?

What do you mean? Did I bump you on the way in? (Or was "this man" a reference to Diablos?)

EDIT: My mistake.
 
I wonder if Roberts' goal all along was to knock down the state exchanges, thus resulting in multiple states relying on the federal exchanges. And then once that happened and this case wound up back in front of the SC...he'd join the conservatives and strike down the law. That way it doesn't look like the court is meddling in an election (2012), but ultimately the conservatives get to kill the biggest liberal legislation in a generation due to a technical typo.
Is this a serious post or troll PD?
 
Politically, I don't really see how this works to conservatives' advantage. Suppose the federal exchange subsidies get struck down. Now you've effectively raised taxes significantly on a bunch of people in various red states. Conservatives can go two ways with this.

They can blame this particular situation on Obamacare, but this is really easy to respond to - the Obama administration was fighting against the removal of these subsidies, and anyway Congress could pass a bill that undoes the Court's decision in a heartbeat, if only Republicans actually cared about lowering taxes on the middle class. This plays right into "Republicans only care about rich people" and "Congress refuses to take obvious action to address what even Republicans agree are problems" frames that Democrats were already going to be running on. This would be an amazingly good example of "conservatives are sabotaging government to make it look like government can't work". Again, this would be a tax increase for a bunch of people; this is changing policy which is already in place.

They can mostly ignore the effects of this, and refer to it in passing as part of an overall "Obamacare is a disaster" narrative. The marginal political value of this is limited, used this way. But if Democrats are insufficiently aggressive about pointing out that Obamacare is only hurting people in red states because red states won't let it help people, maybe they can get somewhere with it, nationally. However, they're going to have problems in elections in these red states if they lack a strong, coordinated response to Democrats arguing that Republican state politicians are costing lots of people in these states a bunch of money. "Elect me and I'll establish a state health care exchange which is just like the federal one you're using now except you'll be paying hundreds of dollars less per month for health insurance, just like you were in 2014 before Republicans made you pay more" is going to be a tempting offer.

I just don't see the endgame here. What's the step between "screw over a bunch of people in a really obvious way" and "win elections"? Is the hope that without federal subsidies a state can win an exemption from Obamacare as a whole because it's too coercive?
If this eliminates subsidies Republicans win the politics. The public is primed to blamed to hate obamacare. Dems own healthcare even if its unrelated to the health care bill they passed. Everything that goes wrong with health care is Obamacares fault.
I'm just theorycrafting, I don't expect any of this to happen.
Its like your mocking dailykos posters or something where everything republicans do is some nefarious conspiracy
 

benjipwns

Banned
Trying to suss out some elaborate electoral stratagem by the conservatives and Republicans is a bit odd in this case when Cato's Michael Cannon and Volokh's Jonathan Adler are behind the argument of the case. Despite the Koch Secret NetworkTM this wasn't exactly crafted deep in the bowels of Springfield Republican Party headquarters.

I'd imagine most of the GOP support stems more from "it might kill Obamacare? I'm in!" than a deal the shadowy king makers of the Republican Party brokered with Chief Justice Roberts to first uphold the mandate to raise left-wing hopes while secretly digging up a 2009 Cato report as the real trump card to pull the bait and switch later right when utopia was about to happen.
 

jWILL253

Banned
It's funny... Republicans in Congress keep obstructing, to which Obama sidesteps using executive orders, to which the Republicans respond to by calling Obama a tyrant and suing him. But it seems like they intend on forwarding their own agendas and undoing all the progress made using litigation via the Supreme Court. And nothing can undo a Supreme Court decision except a new law from Congress, but the Republicans are obstructing, so nothing will get accomplished on that end.

I think the Republicans & the Supreme Court are the real tyrants...
 

Diablos

Member
It's funny... Republicans in Congress keep obstructing, to which Obama sidesteps using executive orders, to which the Republicans respond to by calling Obama a tyrant and suing him. But it seems like they intend on forwarding their own agendas and undoing all the progress made using litigation via the Supreme Court. And nothing can undo a Supreme Court decision except a new law from Congress, but the Republicans are obstructing, so nothing will get accomplished on that end.

I think the Republicans & the Supreme Court are the real tyrants...
No kidding, it's blatantly obvious.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Nixon called, he wants his complaints about the Warren Court back.

Andrew Jackson would have called but he doesn't know what the fuck a phone is and probably was out roughing up some natives.
 
It's funny... Republicans in Congress keep obstructing, to which Obama sidesteps using executive orders, to which the Republicans respond to by calling Obama a tyrant and suing him. But it seems like they intend on forwarding their own agendas and undoing all the progress made using litigation via the Supreme Court. And nothing can undo a Supreme Court decision except a new law from Congress, but the Republicans are obstructing, so nothing will get accomplished on that end.

I think the Republicans & the Supreme Court are the real tyrants...

Yea but really they don't have a legal case on just about anything except maybe Obama's immigration decision.

Honestly I think the general goal over the last 5-6 years has been to cause a recession by any means necessary. Hasn't worked, didn't work last election, probably won't work for 2016 either.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom