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PoliGAF 2014 |OT| Kay Hagan and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad News

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N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
BsJnYNHIAAAiAfk.png
 
K

kehs

Banned
"The only disagreement I had with Governor Perry," the president said, was that Perry requested Obama move forward with a plan to fix the immigration crisis without additional funds from Congress.
Click to expand...

Brilliant!
 
Metaphoreus

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
speculawyer said:
So basically he is a dumbshit and you are just being pedantic. Bully for you!
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I'm making no more pedantic a point than the one you made here. The difference is merely that nobody pushed back against your interpretation, so you had no reason to defend it.

AntoneM said:
ok, let's go down that hole. (thanks for ignoring everything else, btw).
Click to expand...

I do what I can.
I ignored nothing.

The problem with your pizza analogy is that the distinction between "as" and "what" with respect to temperature does not carry over to a discussion of pizza. I read,"The temperature on Mars is as it is on Earth" to use "as" as a preposition to mean "like" or "similar to": "The temperature on Mars is like it is on Earth." I read, "The temperature on Mars is what it is on Earth" to use "what" as a pronoun to mean "that which": "The temperature on Mars is that which it is on Earth." To me, "that which" specifies a particular temperature (e.g., 60 degrees Fahrenheit), whereas "like" merely expresses that there is a similarity between the temperature on Mars and the temperature on Earth.

But, when it comes to pizza, I read "as it is in New York" and "what it is in New York" as interchangeable. "Pizza" does not describe a system of measurement, so "that which" cannot specify a particular measure of pizza-ness within that system (such as a temperature that is "what" it is in New York would specify a particular measure of heat--say, 60 degrees Fahrenheit). If you say that a pizza in Shanghai is "that which it is in New York," you're really saying that it's like or similar to a pizza in New York, just as you would be if you said the Shanghai pizza is "as it is in New York."

(I'll also note that I'm still not sure what you mean when you say that a pizza in Shanghai is as it is in New York, since you seem to think such a thing is impossible. It's clearly possible, if "as" means "like," which is how I read it.)

All that said, I haven't claimed that my reading is "obvious." As I said initially, Smith could have been clearer. If my reading were obvious, then I wouldn't have said Smith should be given the benefit of the doubt, as I wouldn't believe there was any doubt as to which Smith could benefit. But once you add in the context of his comment--he was referring, despite his disclaimer, to climate change--the ambiguity begins to resolve itself. The statement, "The Earth and Mars have the same average temperature" says nothing about climate change. The statement, "The Earth and Mars have experienced similar changes in temperature" does say something about climate change--namely, it says what Gotchaye suggested Smith could not have thought in making his statement. Given that, and even if you don't buy my as-what distinction, my reading becomes more probably the correct one.

tl;dr This is the most absurd discussion I've had all week, and if APKmetsfan wants to joke about how ridiculous lawyers are, he'd be well within his rights to do so after reading this post.

Gotchaye said:
I feel like everyone has switched sides from when we were arguing about whether Congress really meant to write the health care law in such a way as to deny subsidies to people on the federal exchange.
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That makes sense, though. Interpreting a statute is a vastly different undertaking from interpreting an off-the-cuff oral statement.
 
A

Aaron

Member
Oblivion said:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/09/kansas-sam-brownback_n_5570793.html

"How do we get out of this hole?"

"We'll DIG our way out!"
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I really wish that for once when any politician, no matter his party, gives a response like that, the interviewer would follow up with, "Are you really that stupid?" Because that's such an obviously stupid thing to say that you would hope that from the mountain of evidence that he knows it's never going to work, and he's just a selfish asshole and not a complete moron.
 
R

reggieandTFE

Member
Metaphoreus said:
I'm making no more pedantic a point than the one you made here. The difference is merely that nobody pushed back against your interpretation, so you had no reason to defend it.



I do what I can.
I ignored nothing.

The problem with your pizza analogy is that the distinction between "as" and "what" with respect to temperature does not carry over to a discussion of pizza. I read,"The temperature on Mars is as it is on Earth" to use "as" as a preposition to mean "like" or "similar to": "The temperature on Mars is like it is on Earth." I read, "The temperature on Mars is what it is on Earth" to use "what" as a pronoun to mean "that which": "The temperature on Mars is that which it is on Earth." To me, "that which" specifies a particular temperature (e.g., 60 degrees Fahrenheit), whereas "like" merely expresses that there is a similarity between the temperature on Mars and the temperature on Earth.

But, when it comes to pizza, I read "as it is in New York" and "what it is in New York" as interchangeable. "Pizza" does not describe a system of measurement, so "that which" cannot specify a particular measure of pizza-ness within that system (such as a temperature that is "what" it is in New York would specify a particular measure of heat--say, 60 degrees Fahrenheit). If you say that a pizza in Shanghai is "that which it is in New York," you're really saying that it's like or similar to a pizza in New York, just as you would be if you said the Shanghai pizza is "as it is in New York."

(I'll also note that I'm still not sure what you mean when you say that a pizza in Shanghai is as it is in New York, since you seem to think such a thing is impossible. It's clearly possible, if "as" means "like," which is how I read it.)

All that said, I haven't claimed that my reading is "obvious." As I said initially, Smith could have been clearer. If my reading were obvious, then I wouldn't have said Smith should be given the benefit of the doubt, as I wouldn't believe there was any doubt as to which Smith could benefit. But once you add in the context of his comment--he was referring, despite his disclaimer, to climate change--the ambiguity begins to resolve itself. The statement, "The Earth and Mars have the same average temperature" says nothing about climate change. The statement, "The Earth and Mars have experienced similar changes in temperature" does say something about climate change--namely, it says what Gotchaye suggested Smith could not have thought in making his statement. Given that, and even if you don't buy my as-what distinction, my reading becomes more probably the correct one.

tl;dr This is the most absurd discussion I've had all week, and if APKmetsfan wants to joke about how ridiculous lawyers are, he'd be well within his rights to do so after reading this post.



That makes sense, though. Interpreting a statute is a vastly different undertaking from interpreting an off-the-cuff oral statement.
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Less is more.
 
H

HylianTom

Banned
Watching the President's conference yesterday afternoon, I had a little daydream fantasy about what it would look like if Obama were to change his tone towards Congress a bit. He gave his usual "I need Congress to help, to compromise, to work with me" speech, and on substance it was fine.. but it would be so damn sweet to once hear him say something forceful, something headline-grabbing, something like "Congress needs to get off of its lazy, do-nothing ass and actually address this country's problems instead of playing this non-stop political basketball game."

I imagine that if he were to go this route, that one line would likely be repeated every ten minutes on cable news, retweeted a gazillion times, placed on newspaper headlines across the country, made fun of on every comedic show.. and I'm trying to figure-out how the GOP would be able to come-up with any sort of effective counter. I'm guessing that they'd try to knock Obama for using naughty language, but really, his words would probably come-across as authentic to average Americans, he'd likely get credit for being engaged, and if folks were prompted by this to looked closer they'd see for themselves how Congressional opposition has behaved.

(Either that, or I love the idea of him "accidentally" being caught on a hot mic using salty language to describe the opposition in Congress. Playing nice has gotten him squat, so why not fire-up the base a bit while really grabbing the attention of folks who don't pay as much attention?)

Funny anecdote: I've used this "naughty language" political tactic on a very small scale at Louisiana Boys' State a few decades ago. I'm admittedly an incredibly weak/nervous public speaker, but my teacher insisted that I run for some office, any office. So when the time came to give my one campaign speech, I gave a really blah, boring talk.. but on a whim (sensing the roomful of voters' sleepiness towards all of the speeches) I decided to punctuate it at the end with the phrase, "..typical political bullshit." Immediately, that one moment caught everyone's attention (you could see the Boys' State faculty coordinators' jaws drop, their heads turning to look at each other in shock, etc), and I ended-up winning by a huge margin, going from an out-organized political nobody to "the anti-bullshit guy."

Anyway.. I'm done rambling for this morning. Back to work. Any thoughts on such a tactic? :p
 
J

joedan

Member
HylianTom said:
Watching the President's conference yesterday afternoon, I had a little daydream fantasy about what it would look like if Obama were to change his tone towards Congress a bit. He gave his usual "I need Congress to help, to compromise, to work with me" speech, and on substance it was fine.. but it would be so damn sweet to once hear him say something forceful, something headline-grabbing, something like "Congress needs to get off of its lazy, do-nothing ass and actually address this country's problems instead of playing this non-stop political basketball game."

I imagine that if he were to go this route, that one line would likely be repeated every ten minutes on cable news, retweeted a gazillion times, placed on newspaper headlines across the country, made fun of on every comedic show.. and I'm trying to figure-out how the GOP would be able to come-up with any sort of effective counter. I'm guessing that they'd try to knock Obama for using naughty language, but really, his words would probably come-across as authentic to average Americans, he'd likely get credit for being engaged, and if folks were prompted by this to looked closer they'd see for themselves how Congressional opposition has behaved.

(Either that, or I love the idea of him "accidentally" being caught on a hot mic using salty language to describe the opposition in Congress. Playing nice has gotten him squat, so why not fire-up the base a bit while really grabbing the attention of folks who don't pay as much attention?)

Funny anecdote: I've used this "naughty language" political tactic on a very small scale at Louisiana Boys' State a few decades ago. I'm admittedly an incredibly weak/nervous public speaker, but my teacher insisted that I run for some office, any office. So when the time came to give my one campaign speech, I gave a really blah, boring talk.. but on a whim (sensing the roomful of voters' sleepiness towards all of the speeches) I decided to punctuate it at the end with the phrase, "..typical political bullshit." Immediately, that one moment caught everyone's attention (you could see the Boys' State faculty coordinators' jaws drop, their heads turning to look at each other in shock, etc), and I ended-up winning by a huge margin, going from an out-organized political nobody to "the anti-bullshit guy."

Anyway.. I'm done rambling for this morning. Back to work. Any thoughts on such a tactic? :p
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image.php


Badly.
 
C

Coriolanus

Banned
Aaron said:
I really wish that for once when any politician, no matter his party, gives a response like that, the interviewer would follow up with, "Are you really that stupid?" Because that's such an obviously stupid thing to say that you would hope that from the mountain of evidence that he knows it's never going to work, and he's just a selfish asshole and not a complete moron.
Click to expand...

Daily Show's been doing that for years.
 
K

kehs

Banned
HylianTom said:
Watching the President's conference yesterday afternoon, I had a little daydream fantasy about what it would look like if Obama were to change his tone towards Congress a bit. He gave his usual "I need Congress to help, to compromise, to work with me" speech, and on substance it was fine.. but it would be so damn sweet to once hear him say something forceful, something headline-grabbing, something like "Congress needs to get off of its lazy, do-nothing ass and actually address this country's problems instead of playing this non-stop political basketball game."
Click to expand...

He's got the ball thing down.

https://www.nrcc.org/2014/06/09/top-11-times-obama-shifted-blame-away-white-house/
 
S

speculawyer

Member
Mourdock-board2.jpg


Todd Akin Takes Back Apology Over 'Legitimate Rape' Theory
.
Todd Akin and the rest of America agree on one thing: his odds of beating Sen. Claire McCaskill in his 2012 Missouri Senate race would have been better if not for the whole "legitimate rape" incident. In his new book Firing Back: Taking on the Party Bosses and Media Elite to Protect Our Faith and Freedom, Akin defends the "science" behind his comments and lists all the establishment Republicans who did him wrong.

In this new excerpt from Politico, Akin writes that wishes he'd done more to "end this evil (that) easily trumps slavery as the greatest moral evil in history." More importantly, he regrets apologizing. "By asking the public at large for forgiveness, I was validating the willful misinterpretation of what I had said," he wrote.

What he said in 2012 was that women rarely get pregnant from "legitimate rape" because "the female body has ways of shutting that whole thing down. His defense of "legitimate rape" comes down to this: if a woman isn't lying about being raped ...
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http://news.yahoo.com/todd-akin-takes-back-apology-over-legitimate-rape-135727731.html
 
L

Lucky Forward

Member
speculawyer said:
Todd Akin Takes Back Apology Over 'Legitimate Rape' Theory

http://news.yahoo.com/todd-akin-takes-back-apology-over-legitimate-rape-135727731.html
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And possible 2016 presidential candidate Mike Huckabee is squarely in his corner, he wrote the forward for Akin's book:

http://www.salon.com/2014/07/10/deranged_todd_akin_is_back_and_steps_in_it_again/

Now he’s championing Akin as a martyr to the cowardly GOP leadership that’s afraid of frank talk about slutty women who can’t control their libidos, and cry “rape” instead of taking the consequences of their sluttiness. “[W]e can sit on the bus (in the back!), but they don’t want us to drive the bus!,” Huckabee writes in the forward. The GOP establishment, he claims, was “still bruised that they didn’t beat Todd in the primary,” and used his comments “as their opportunity to take him out and select someone more palatable to their tastes.”
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N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
Lol at politicos cover today there are some gems
v1Godu4.jpg

He still thinks there are ways of 'shutting it down'. And attacks dems for having Clinton speak but attack him. Lol
 
H

HylianTom

Banned
joedan said:
image.php


Badly.
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Eh.. It was worth a shot. At the very least, it'd be entertaining as hell.
(seems like we get a fun "hot mic" moment every few years, so we're overdue for one from somebody, somewhere..)

Elsewhere.. I'd like to thank Mr Akin in advance for his valiant efforts to keep dat gender gap going. :)
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Oceanwind said:
Colorado's gay marriage ban has been ruled unconstitutional. The judge stayed his ruling though.
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It's pretty expected at this point for every case like this this to turn out that way at this point.

More interesting may be Suthers v Hall about that clerk who was issuing marriage licenses to same sex couples even with the ban. That may have potential of making it practically legal right away. The judge said yesterday the ruling was coming "soon".
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
HylianTom said:
Eh.. It was worth a shot. At the very least, it'd be entertaining as hell.
(seems like we get a fun "hot mic" moment every few years, so we're overdue for one from somebody, somewhere..)

Elsewhere.. I'd like to thank Mr Akin in advance for his valiant efforts to keep dat gender gap going. :)
Click to expand...

There are ways to slam republicans without going into vulgar or unprofessional territory. He rarely speaks forcefully about the situation imo. Yesterday he noted that if he declared apple pie "American" it might become a partisan issue in congress. He's noted before that some republicans privately tell him they'd like to work on a particular bill but can't due to their base. I'd just like to see it done in a way that sparks conversation outside of liberal blogs. Some way that forces a response from republicans and the media. Perhaps naming names would do the trick. Perhaps publicly playing divide and conquer between Boehner and his caucus would do it.
 
H

HylianTom

Banned
PhoenixDark said:
There are ways to slam republicans without going into vulgar or unprofessional territory. He rarely speaks forcefully about the situation imo. Yesterday he noted that if he declared apple pie "American" it might become a partisan issue in congress. He's noted before that some republicans privately tell him they'd like to work on a particular bill but can't due to their base. I'd just like to see it done in a way that sparks conversation outside of liberal blogs. Some way that forces a response from republicans and the media. Perhaps naming names would do the trick. Perhaps publicly playing divide and conquer between Boehner and his caucus would do it.
Click to expand...

I'd like to see where the naming-names approach gets him. My #1 frustration with him is probably that he is entirely too wimpy in calling-out the opposition. He has to find some sort of theatrics to bring attention to this, but so far it's mainly been the usual snoozefest that gets a fittingly bland brand of news coverage.

And maybe I'm way too permissive, but the whole "professionalism" angle seems way overrated. He's tried being "the adult in the room" for years now.
 
O

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
I hope someone's telling Todd Akin that a great way to prove the "establishment" wrong is to try and run again. Maybe for president, even!

speculawyer said:
Well . . . they didn't say they were going to cut taxes more.

But their blind-faith in cut taxes always = growth & revenue is amusing. It is like they have no common sense and just rigidly follow the dogmatic sacraments preached by Saint Reagan.
Click to expand...

Hmm? Yes he does!

The governor of the deep red state argued that low tax rates, which are scheduled to decrease further in 2018, would help attract new residents and businesses to the state and ultimately grow the tax base. He said that Kansans should vote for him come November because he'll double down on the tax plan -- a policy that analysts on the left and right consider the worst in the country.

"I want to continue to get that income tax down because that's the one that holds back so many states. We started out as a high-tax state. I want to get us down further as a low-tax state to create jobs and opportunities," he said.
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O

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Well, stick a fork in it, conservatives. It's over:

What was more surprising is that people who got the new coverage were generally happy with the product. Overall, 73 percent of people who bought health plans and 87 percent of those who signed up for Medicaid said they were somewhat or very satisfied with their new health insurance. Seventy-four percent of newly insured Republicans liked their plans. Even 77 percent of people who had insurance before—including members of the much-publicized group whose plans got canceled last year—were happy with their new coverage.
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Limbaugh on suicide watch.
 
C

Crisco

Banned
HylianTom said:
Anyway.. I'm done rambling for this morning. Back to work. Any thoughts on such a tactic? :p
Click to expand...

Nah, that wouldn't really accomplish anything long term. I wouldn't mind a poison laced tirade focused on a single issue, like immigration or climate change, but going after the GOP at large for basically doing what the yokles who elected them want them to do is just going to feed into their narrative. At this point, the GOP's worst enemy is itself, best to just let them self destruct.
 
H

HylianTom

Banned
Crisco said:
Nah, that wouldn't really accomplish anything long term. I wouldn't mind a poison laced tirade focused on a single issue, like immigration or climate change, but going after the GOP at large for basically doing what the yokles who elected them want them to do is just going to feed into their narrative. At this point, the GOP's worst enemy is itself, best to just let them self destruct.
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I guess I should be pleased that this is my main complaint. In light of larger issues (and in contrast with how frustrated/scared the GOP's base must be at this point), this seems like nit picking.
 
O

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Anyone else surprised the Republicans shut up completely on Obamacare for the past few months?
 
R

RustyNails

Member
So I have a theory. Obama's low approval polls of doom are not reflecting the national mood properly. I think he is closer to 50% favorable. I say this because just by my own anecdotal evidence on the internet, he enjoys tremendous support from the core demograph of young people and democrats in general. Then, from seeing all these reports from the media that hes the worst president evarr, and then seeing Obama engaging in Bear Is Loose campaign is very contradictory. You would think from all the reports that people are going to yell at him when Bear is loose. But...people want to run up to him shake his hand and are filled with glee. Then yesyerday in Colorado he was treated like a friggin rockstar in that bar. People were literally giddy. And now we just got a news report saying over a thousand people camped overnight outside Austin Paramount Theater to just see him (not even meet and greet). Can you imagine a thousand people camping overnight to see Bush after Katrina disaster. I think the pollsters are still using Party IDs from 2012 election. Or 2008. I dunno, but something is definitely not jiving.
 
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