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PoliGAF 2014 |OT| Kay Hagan and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad News

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T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Also, I apologize for the long post. It's just that this topic fascinates me, so it is easy to write about when I should be doing something else.........
No, I like long posts about economics, especially those that agree with me.

This. I always have this feeling that our entire *system* is band-aided beyond belief and the whole thing comes crashing down, back to zero, in our lifetime. Only thing left standing will be the defense industry, perfectly and capably intact. Maybe we should not have bailed the banks and auto inudstry and let it burn to the ground. I dont know. But this prescription of band-aiding must stop.
I don't feel it's that bad. The underlining fundamentals of our economy is not that different from mid to late 20th century America. It may get some major flesh wounds that require doctoring to get through it, but it'll survive under our current economic consensus.

I just wish we could work harder on trying to get those wounds to just not happen in the first place.
 

Diablos

Member
Yeah?

The ACA is fucked long-term. The law is going to end up at the SCOTUS yet again and I don't think Roberts will be so forgiving this time. It's going to take at least a year for everything to settle before it gets there. Which means tons of people are going to lose their health insurance due to being unable to afford it right in the middle of the Presidential election really ramping up.

This is a horrible precedent for the law, Democrats, and most importantly people who cannot afford insurance without the subsidy. This is just awful.

Everything is going to plan -- Medicaid expansion was first disabled, soon the subsidy will be too. They can't repeal the ACA so they'll make it as ineffective as possible. It will be redefined as a law that will only work in blue states which is awful policy, and will hurt the health insurance market as well.

How is Hillary/Democrats going to be able to defend the ACA now? 2016 could very well be a close race as is. None of this press is good for the midterms which is already close enough as is. Democrats DO NOT need this right now.

The GOP is aiming to make it it harder and harder for people to get insurance, scaring the shit out of them in the process, attempting to give more legitimacy to the idea that a full repeal of the law ultimately is the end goal. It might just end up working someday. Some low info voter is going to see all this and just blame Obama, not vote or finally start to eat up the GOP's mindless rhetoric. No one is going to care about the nuanced details when they will have to go back to picking between a health insurance premium or having enough food on the table again.

Laugh at me or dismiss me if you want; pretty sure not many of you expected the subsidies to get trashed like this when it was first discussed. And yet here we are.
 
Diablos you realize nobody loses their subsidy due to yesterday's ruling right? They're still flowing, and th case migr not make it to the SC considering the full fed appeals court will rule in the law's favor.
 

Diablos

Member
Diablos you realize nobody loses their subsidy due to yesterday's ruling right? They're still flowing, and th case migr not make it to the SC considering the full fed appeals court will rule in the law's favor.
Should that actually happen feel free to remind me how wrong I was every time I post. Far less disturbing than the possibility of millions of people losing health insurance.
 

Wilsongt

Member
Yeah?

The ACA is fucked long-term. The law is going to end up at the SCOTUS yet again and I don't think Roberts will be so forgiving this time. It's going to take at least a year for everything to settle before it gets there. Which means tons of people are going to lose their health insurance due to being unable to afford it right in the middle of the Presidential election really ramping up.

This is a horrible precedent for the law, Democrats, and most importantly people who cannot afford insurance without the subsidy. This is just awful.

Everything is going to plan -- Medicaid expansion was first disabled, soon the subsidy will be too. They can't repeal the ACA so they'll make it as ineffective as possible. It will be redefined as a law that will only work in blue states which is awful policy, and will hurt the health insurance market as well.

How is Hillary/Democrats going to be able to defend the ACA now? 2016 could very well be a close race as is. None of this press is good for the midterms which is already close enough as is. Democrats DO NOT need this right now.

The GOP is aiming to make it it harder and harder for people to get insurance, scaring the shit out of them in the process, attempting to give more legitimacy to the idea that a full repeal of the law ultimately is the end goal. It might just end up working someday. Some low info voter is going to see all this and just blame Obama, not vote or finally start to eat up the GOP's mindless rhetoric. No one is going to care about the nuanced details when they will have to go back to picking between a health insurance premium or having enough food on the table again.

Laugh at me or dismiss me if you want; pretty sure not many of you expected the subsidies to get trashed like this when it was first discussed. And yet here we are.

Calm down, Chicken little.
 
Yeah?

The ACA is fucked long-term. The law is going to end up at the SCOTUS yet again and I don't think Roberts will be so forgiving this time. It's going to take at least a year for everything to settle before it gets there. Which means tons of people are going to lose their health insurance due to being unable to afford it right in the middle of the Presidential election really ramping up.

This is a horrible precedent for the law, Democrats, and most importantly people who cannot afford insurance without the subsidy. This is just awful.

Everything is going to plan -- Medicaid expansion was first disabled, soon the subsidy will be too. They can't repeal the ACA so they'll make it as ineffective as possible. It will be redefined as a law that will only work in blue states which is awful policy, and will hurt the health insurance market as well.

How is Hillary/Democrats going to be able to defend the ACA now? 2016 could very well be a close race as is. None of this press is good for the midterms which is already close enough as is. Democrats DO NOT need this right now.

The GOP is aiming to make it it harder and harder for people to get insurance, scaring the shit out of them in the process, attempting to give more legitimacy to the idea that a full repeal of the law ultimately is the end goal. It might just end up working someday. Some low info voter is going to see all this and just blame Obama, not vote or finally start to eat up the GOP's mindless rhetoric. No one is going to care about the nuanced details when they will have to go back to picking between a health insurance premium or having enough food on the table again.

Laugh at me or dismiss me if you want; pretty sure not many of you expected the subsidies to get trashed like this when it was first discussed. And yet here we are.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/07/22/why-obamacare-probably-isnt-doomed/
 

Crisco

Banned
Yeah, the subsidies aren't going anywhere. They fired their best shot two years ago when they went against the individual mandate. That died at the Supreme Court, and this one probably won't even make it there. People are understandably anxious after the Hobby Lobby decision, but that was an extremely narrow ruling based on precedent set by HHS (giving religious exemptions to the contraceptive mandate). There is no precedent here, except in favor of keeping the subsidies flowing.
 
I really want to push back against this notion that the "system" worked. If you define working as "not completely collapsing to the point where the very stability of our society is threatened like during the Great Depression", then yes, it "worked". That is an unacceptably low bar to clear, however. Prior to 2008-2008, at the very least the economic system (which I'd define as monetarism + military Kenysianism) was maintaining close to full employment (defined as 4-5% unemployment, which is assumed to be frictional) and providing people with basic necessities like housing and education.
As he pointed out, you need to look at other places in our position. Europe, Japan, South Korea . . . they are generally doing worse.

It is a tough time due to oil depletion, low-wage foreign competition, and an aging population. People can complain all they want but I don't see anyone with any magic solutions. The standard GOP line of 'cut taxes and then magic happens' just doesn't work. Ask Brownback about that.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Slate's Emily Bazelon: Obamacare Is Safe. Don’t worry, the ruling against heath care subsidies is going to be reversed.

Add that to PD's reasoning that this would be anti-corporate and the SC doesn't want to be anti-corporate, and I'm completely satisfied that this case isn't going anywhere.

I would, however, like to note that the DC circuit's 7-4 democrat appointee to republican appointee split is only possible because of last year's nuclear option on filibusters. Obama was able to appoint 4 judges thanks to that new rule (seniors are not a part of that split). Things could be very different if not for that.
 
PDs not rooting for dems to lose. He's just got a lot less illustion about politics and how the dems are always gonna win because demographics or the GOPs stupidity.
It goes farther than that, into its own insane other corner. No matter how many times he's wrong, he keeps peddling his own horrible predictions.

For example: Upshot now has the chances of Kay Hagan keeping her seat at 72%.
 

kehs

Banned
“For the second time in a month, the courts have ruled against the president’s unilateral actions regarding ObamaCare. The president has demonstrated he believes he has the power to make his own laws. That’s not the way our system of government was designed to work. That’s why the House will act next week to authorize a lawsuit to uphold the rule of law and protect our Constitution. This isn't about Republicans versus Democrats; it’s about the Constitution versus unconstitutional and unilateral actions by the Executive Branch, and protecting our democracy.

“Today’s ruling is also further proof that President Obama’s health care law is completely unworkable. It cannot be fixed. The American people recognize that ObamaCare is hurting our economy and making it harder for small businesses to hire, and that’s why Republicans remain committed to repealing the law and replacing it with solutions that will lower health care costs and protect American jobs.”

-Boehner
 
It goes farther than that, into its own insane other corner. No matter how many times he's wrong, he keeps peddling his own horrible predictions.

For example: Upshot now has the chances of Kay Hagan keeping her seat at 72%.

Damn why is Colorado and Iowa slipping away so suddenly?
 
PDs not rooting for dems to lose. He's just got a lot less illustion about politics and how the dems are always gonna win because demographics or the GOPs stupidity.
The thing with PD is he makes predictions that Republicans are going to win based on a hunch and then contrary to all available data. I understand his rooting for Romney was more trolling than anything, but even on election day he was predicting Todd Akin and Scott Brown would win their senate races even after poll after poll showed them losing big.

Also he voted for Rick Snyder.

WayneMorse said:
Damn why is Colorado and Iowa slipping away so suddenly?
Polling in Iowa has been pretty close. I think Braley will put distance between himself and Ernst as the campaign season goes on, especially as Iowa is a moderately Dem-leaning state.

Polling in Colorado has also been close but polling in Colorado is usually pretty terrible anyway. I'm pretty sure several reputable pollsters even had Romney winning right before the election in 2012, and it's just notoriously hard to get an accurate sample there. That being said Udall has had a small lead and he's a pretty great incumbent, this is just closer than it should be as Cory Gardner is a good get for the GOP.
 
It goes farther than that, into its own insane other corner. No matter how many times he's wrong, he keeps peddling his own horrible predictions.

For example: Upshot now has the chances of Kay Hagan keeping her seat at 72%.
On specifics, yeah. But I appreciate something besides cheerleading every once and awhile

I still think we get a 50-50 split or a 51-49 split with the GOP ahead.

I think Hagan's gonna win but I'm really worried about Bradley and LA is going to go to a runoff and will decide the senate. I don't think you can overcome the GOP knowing they win that they get the senate.
 

Crisco

Banned
I love how even the FAA recommending civilian aviation to halt flights to Israel, where rockets and military jets are clouding it's airspace, becomes politicized by the GOP. Cruz actually released a statement equating it to an economic boycott,

http://nation.foxnews.com/2014/07/23/release-did-president-obama-just-launch-economic-boycott-israel

“Until these serious questions are answered, the facts suggest that President Obama has just used a federal regulatory agency to launch an economic boycott on Israel, in order to try to force our ally to comply with his foreign-policy demands.
 
I think Hagan's gonna win but I'm really worried about Bradley and LA is going to go to a runoff and will decide the senate. I don't think you can overcome the GOP knowing they win that they get the senate.
I'm not too concerned (big surprise, right). The GOP nominees in Arkansas and North Carolina are terrible. Iowa and Colorado look closer than I feel they'll end up on election day. Begich will keep doing what he's doing, he's got a good brand in Alaska. Grimes looks very much like she can beat McConnell. And Louisiana and Georgia will probably go to run-offs anyway so no use worrying about them now. Even Montana which everyone wrote off as early as Jan 2013 has gotten considerably closer (though I don't think Democrats will win it in the end).

Any result north of 49 seats I'd be happy with, really. There seems to be a very slight preference for the Democrats among the electorate and I think that'll be enough to hold onto the Senate majority. Not that it really matters since nothing's going to get done for the next two years anyway and Democrats would probably just win the majority again in 2016, but man I really don't want to see Obama having to veto Obamacare defunds over and over.
 
I love how even the FAA recommending civilian aviation to halt flights to Israel, where rockets and military jets are clouding it's airspace, becomes politicized by the GOP. Cruz actually released a statement equating it to an economic boycott,

http://nation.foxnews.com/2014/07/23/release-did-president-obama-just-launch-economic-boycott-israel

And not to mention that this kind of view completely obliterates the view that the poor Israelis are under such a barrage of completely deadly missile attacks which thus forces them to shell the homes of Palestinians.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Damn. Retroactively fail him and take away his degree.

They probably can, I can't imagine they'll just let him off easy if possible. Doing nothing discredits their entire institution. Goddamn, like 90% of that was plagiarized.

EDIT: I am a dipshit
 

Cloudy

Banned
Damn, Bloomberg going IN on Wolf Blitzer just now. Even though Bloomberg disagrees with the FAA's decision to halt flights, he reacted strongly when asked if it was a "political" decision. Bloomberg said the question was an "outrage" and "insulting."
 
As he pointed out, you need to look at other places in our position. Europe, Japan, South Korea . . . they are generally doing worse.

It is a tough time due to oil depletion, low-wage foreign competition, and an aging population. People can complain all they want but I don't see anyone with any magic solutions. The standard GOP line of 'cut taxes and then magic happens' just doesn't work. Ask Brownback about that.

I don't think that's a fair comparison because the troika in EU put countries back into recession/depression with their proactive fiscal policies and South Korea rebounded quickly relative to the US.
 

AndyD

aka andydumi
Yea but I never plagiarized any of those papers. Writing a paper the night before it's due and copy and pasting a paper the night before it's due are two different things.

Yep. Maybe copy/pasting a sentence without paraphrase or credit by accident in a large paper, but his is wholesale copy/pasted.
 

Wall

Member
As he pointed out, you need to look at other places in our position. Europe, Japan, South Korea . . . they are generally doing worse.

Europe is performing worse because it is a currency block without a mechanism for coordinating fiscal policy. Worse, the fiscal policy that is being enacted in the Eurozone by individual countries is contractionary, when it should be expansionary. Also, the European central bank was not as aggressive as the Fed in trying to alleviate various debt burdens. What is happening in Europe is what would have happened in the U.S. had the Republicans controlled all three branches of government or Obama actually been serious about his "pivot" to deficit reduction in the short term.

I'm not sure how you can say Japan or South Korea are any better or worse off than we are. Japan actually presaged our economic experience by 20 years with their own real-estate bubble burst and lost decade or decades. Terms like "zombie banks" and "zombie corporations" actually were first used as criticisms of the Japanese response.

In any case, I'm not sure why any of that matters. There were certainly worse places to be on Earth than the U.S. in the 30's, 40's, and 50's. That fact had absolutely nothing to do with the merits of U.S. economic policy then and it does not now.

It is a tough time due to oil depletion, low-wage foreign competition, and an aging population. People can complain all they want but I don't see anyone with any magic solutions. The standard GOP line of 'cut taxes and then magic happens' just doesn't work. Ask Brownback about that
.

I hear these explanations all the time, but they simply don't stand up to scrutiny. If oil depletion were the cause of our economic difficulties, then economic growth would have an inverse relationship to oil prices. The opposite has been the case in the past decade and a half. In fact, the U.S. has never been more energy self-sufficient in recent memory than it is at the present because of new technologies, unpopular things like fracking, and more fuel efficient cars.

The aging population explanation is bogus for a similar reason: It relies on the assumption that the productive capacity of the U.S. economy is somehow less than it was in the past, and that a loss of productivity is what it causing the present slow economic growth. In fact, the opposite is the case. If productivity loss were the true cause of the recession, the utilization of American factories would not have gone down during the recession.

The "foreign competition" explanation is wrong for similar reasons, and it also ties into what I was saying about the system failing on its own terms. According to the economics of trade, free trade should should enhance the overall productivity of all countries involved, thereby leading to greater prosperity for all. The standard liberal response to an inequitable distribution of the benefits of trade is for a strong state to redistribute wealth in the form of public goods. Nothing like that is happening.

The theme running through the reasons why all of these explanations are wrong is that, contrary to the unstated assumption behind the explanations, the root cause of the current economic problems is a lack of demand, not of supply. Models positing a lack of supply as being at the root of our current economic problems simply don't match reality in the predictions they make and are, at best, intellectually incoherent.

All that being said, judging by your response, I think I might come off as right wing in my previous post, when that could not be further from the truth. I'm definitely in the "didn't go far enough" camp. Moreover, the way the Obama administration did not go far enough is particularly insidious, especially for young people.

By coordinating with the Fed to bail out banks and prop up asset prices (housing and stocks), the Obama administration did indeed rescue the economy from a complete collapse such as was experienced in the early 1930's. The alternative would have been worse.

However, those measures primarily benefited older homeowners. If you are a boomer with who owns their own home, has a job, and has a pension or a 401k, the actions taken by the Obama administration benefited you. If you are a young person, unless your parents are able to contribute financially to "starting you out" in a career through paying for a college education (assuming you "chose wisely), none of the economic policies (e. g. generously subsidized higher ed, unions, well funded public schools, economic policies intended to ensure full employment) that were available to your parents and grandparents (with a few notable and unfortunate exceptions) are there to ensure that you are able to share in the wealth generated by the economy. Nevertheless, housing and other assets are still priced as if such measures still existed in large amounts. Worse, the very financial institutions that were saved now lobby against measures to actually extend the "rescue" to those left out.

That is what I mean when I say that a zombified shell of the system was saved. Arguably, it is better to be a young person with no future prospects in a barely functioning society than it is to be a young person in a society where everyone is equally fucked. That is small comfort, however. I think the above bears repeating because the damage done to future generations by the collective policy failures basically from 1996 onward will haunt future Americans for a long time.
 

AntoneM

Member

Cloudy

Banned
Where is the outrage in the MSM at the GOP for trying to nix subsidies for millions of people? The simple act of people getting cancellation notices and being shifted into other plans was such a big deal just a few months ago...
 

Wilsongt

Member
Where is the outrage in the MSM at the GOP for trying to nix subsidies for millions of people? The simple act of people getting cancellation notices and being shifted into other plans was such a big deal just a few months ago...

The Right-Wing media machine is much stronger and more cohesive than the left-wing media machine.

Edit: Plus, Israel. The US' greatest most special, super awesome, jiggly ally ever.
 
Where is the outrage in the MSM at the GOP for trying to nix subsidies for millions of people? The simple act of people getting cancellation notices and being shifted into other plans was such a big deal just a few months ago...

Not only that, but think about the total outcome of this. By the time this goes through the SCOTUS (if it were to happen) and be decided, what would the result be?

The government demanding thousands of dollars from numerous low income people to recoup their subsidies for buying insurance they never would have bought without the subsidies.

Think about how evil that sounds.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Guys, bad news. Hillary will never be president now. :(

[Rep. Michele Bachmann] and 2012 Republican presidential candidate told RealClearPolitics on Tuesday that she is considering a second White House run.

Bachmann made the revelation during an interview, in which she was asked for her view on whether any Republican women might seek the Oval Office in 2016.

“The only thing that the media has speculated on is that it’s going to be various men that are running,” she replied. “They haven’t speculated, for instance, that I’m going to run. What if I decide to run? And there’s a chance I could run.”

“Like with anything else, practice makes perfect,” she said. “And I think if a person has gone through the process -- for instance, I had gone through 15 presidential debates -- it’s easy to see a person’s improvement going through that.”

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...n-announces-she-might-run-for-president-again
 
Guys, bad news. Hillary will never be president now. :(

[Rep. Michele Bachmann] and 2012 Republican presidential candidate told RealClearPolitics on Tuesday that she is considering a second White House run.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...n-announces-she-might-run-for-president-again

Please be true!

5.gif


C'mon Bachmann. Do it. You need to do it to join the right-wing con machine that funds people like Herman Cain, Santorum, Newt Gingrich, and Huckabee with Fox News contributor gigs, mailing-lists, books, speeches to far-right organizations, films, etc.
 
According to Ted Cruz it seems Obama's joined the BSD movement by banning flights to a War Zone. Its not like the FAA is erring on the side of caution due to something that may have happened last week...

Ironically I flew on a Ukrianian Airline and did a layover in Kiev when I visited Israel a few years ago, never doing that again.
 
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