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PoliGAF 2014 |OT| Kay Hagan and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad News

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The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Your liberties being violated does not stop them from existing. They are innate. That's why we can say they're being violated.


I didn't, I pointed out economic and technological advancement. (Geographical advancement goes in there as corporations have expanded their territories.) But the claim the state makes on your labor is the same claim that the Lord and the King made. Because you are laboring with their "blessing" you owe them a portion of your labor.

I imagine when police departments fully militarize and internal borders are setup, the parallels get more obvious.

And the problem is if I try to go into any nuance about how the two might be different in either philosophical or practical terms you'll just say
So the only thing protecting us from a small group of elites wielding power in evil ways is a small group of elites wielding power in evil ways?
or something equally reductionist. So honestly, I think I'm done bothering
 

benjipwns

Banned
And the problem is if I try to go into any nuance about how the two might be different in either philosophical or practical terms you'll just say
In practical terms they're somewhat different because technology and all, but not philosophically. The corporation represented either through an elected legislature or an elected King and his Lords are still making a claim on a portion of the labor of their "subjects" that is owed first to the state and not to be used as the laborer sees fit.

The feudal period had plenty of labor riots and even Kings/Lords were toppled in tax revolts just for moving things a percentage point or two. Often the state could have and did crush these revolts, but many times they actually changed Lords or changed taxes "peacefully" in what was in effectively an election by informal means.

We waste billions on a whole pageantry choosing our next leader that's mostly controlled by the elite just as they did.

Our capabilities have increased because capabilities always increase faster than power and are more exponential.

The idea that "all men are created equal" hasn't yet hit critical mass, but the notion of its pre-existence as a liberty has done a lot to stand athwart power saying "stop!" And it's when enough said "stop" to certain things that the state shifts how it deployed and distributed its power. Hopefully someday it will hit critical mass and allow for a path where not using violence for personal gain also does. I think it will help when we don't have to talk about Americans and Iranians as different in their natural liberties that Americans and Iranians won't have to come up with reasons to justify using coercive violence against the other.
 
What would be the benefit of this? How does it improve the effectiveness of welfare in protecting the poor?

As pigeon said, why? Who does that benefit?

All it is is a reflection of a widespread public opprobrium against welfare

It allows more money going to those that want to contribute but need money. But most of all it makes the system much more efficient. There would be a lot less need for a lot of the silly rules on welfare (such as the time limits in the thread me and APK were in).
 

pigeon

Banned
It allows more money going to those that want to contribute but need money. But most of all it makes the system much more efficient. There would be a lot less need for a lot of the silly rules on welfare (such as the time limits in the thread me and APK were in).

What makes you think the system is not efficient enough?

What makes you think any of those rules are actually needed? What do you think they're needed for?
 
It allows more money going to those that want to contribute but need money. But most of all it makes the system much more efficient. There would be a lot less need for a lot of the silly rules on welfare (such as the time limits in the thread me and APK were in).

What do you mean by efficient?

Let me just ask you what do you think welfare is for? (I'm asking you your personal belief in why you support welfare payments not its justification in politics)

Wow. I can buy liquor in the grocery store in California and it is fine.

But how did manage to take a reasonable proposal and sound like a complete creep endorsing it.

Get on LA's level. Liquor in convenient stores, Liquor at my late night Rite Aid runs.

This is why I love New Orleans
 

Tamanon

Banned
Wow. I can buy liquor in the grocery store in California and it is fine.

But how did manage to take a reasonable proposal and sound like a complete creep endorsing it.

NC is weird here. Only beer and wine in grocery stores. Anything harder and you can only buy it at ABC, which is a state-run liquor store.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Wow. I can buy liquor in the grocery store in California and it is fine.

But how did manage to take a reasonable proposal and sound like a complete creep endorsing it.
This is how the state liquor monopoly wanted people to get permission to purchase wine in grocery stores in PA:
m8Dzkcp.jpg


What makes you think the system is not efficient enough?

What makes you think any of those rules are actually needed? What do you think they're needed for?
The more relevant question is what makes him think the rules aren't already in place.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
I just got around to this and oh man it is great. I love when republicans start wondering about how to get outside of their old white man demographic. I'm sure the “deal honestly with any disagreement on abortion, then move to other issues” plan will work out great for them.

I wonder when the Democrats will get their version of this, looking for ways to appeal to old white men.
I love how its not embrace polices that benefit the middle class, its don't pick polices that can be "framed" correctly. Pretty much saying hide your real motives better.
Republicans have spent hundreds of billions of dollars on an industry of think tanks and PACs dedicated to framing issues the right way. If there was a better way of framing these things they would have found it by now.
 

Diablos

Member
Here in PA we actually have a lot of nice state stores that sell alcohol... and a lot of lackluster ones unfortunately. There are some new-ish locations here that are so good you won't mind making the extra trip.

Also, the latest Corbett commentary is just another look into the mind of our braindead Governor and how he tries to put together a coherent thought but never fails to fuck it up. Can't wait until he's gone. He's a national embarrassment.
 

kehs

Banned
I wasn't really sure if the ad was for terri lynn or not honestly.

It kept saying terry lynn knows about women.

That's like the oldest ad technique on the book.
 
Wow. I can buy liquor in the grocery store in California and it is fine.

But how did manage to take a reasonable proposal and sound like a complete creep endorsing it.

FWIW, this isn't a red state vs blue state thing. Massachusetts, the last time I visited, had a weird system, too. You couldn't buy hard alcohol or i think even beer at a grocery store. And you had to buy your alcohol before a certain time, like 10pm. After 10pm, the registers shut off and refuse to sell alcohol. It's bizarre. Of course you can buy at a bar into the late hours, but not for home consumption.

In California, every food market I've ever been to sells every kind of alcohol. In fact, I don't even know how a liquor store in California survives. The last time I was in one, the prices were obscene. If I want beer, I can usually get decent chain beer on sale (ala sierra Nevada or so) or I can stop into a Bevmo if I want more microbrew stuff for a reasonable price. Same with hard. Liquor stores are marked up high yet are still around...

Why states have these weird regulations is beyond me.
 

Karakand

Member
Get on LA's level. Liquor in convenient stores, Liquor at my late night Rite Aid runs.

This is why I love New Orleans

I can run down to CVS right now and buy hooch...

LA's only advan over CA is that you're prohibited from buying booze between 3 and 5 am instead of 2 and 6 am. (These are both "what's the fucking point?" limitations, BTW.)
 
I can run down to CVS right now and buy hooch...

LA's only advan over CA is that you're prohibited from buying booze between 3 and 5 am instead of 2 and 6 am. (These are both "what's the fucking point?" limitations, BTW.)

This might also be true for glue, btw. I can't recall.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Why states have these weird regulations is beyond me.
Prohibition. When it was repealed it was only Federally repealed leaving all the state laws enacted during it on the books. States then used their monopolies to setup a consistent revenue stream. That's one reason it's not set by any blue/red divide even back then. Some states didn't even repeal the Prohibition part where it's illegal to transport liquor until the 1960's and a couple states held out on serving liquor until the 1980's. (I believe Kansas is the state that's been the harshest on liquor in US history until the last couple decades.)

In a lot of states the liquor control board and its union are very powerful. And people are basically ignorant of the alternative that exists in Michigan or California to pick more open retail examples. (Michigan still has a distribution monopoly and sets all prices.)

0404liquorcontrolstatespng.png


When Washington recently got rid of theirs the side against that (the stores/union) were basically saying it'd be nothing but streets full of drunks crashing airplanes into bridges and setting the space needle ablaze, etc. You get the same thing in New Jersey and Oregon when you mention people pumping their own gas, in a lot of places in those states locals will absolutely lose their shit like you're about to set off a bomb if you try to pump your own gas.

Then there's dry/wet counties which is a whole nother story:
555px-Alcohol_control_in_the_United_States.svg.png
 

benjipwns

Banned
From that Braley poll posted earlier:
Thinking back to your first choice, if I added Mitt Romney to that list, would you still vote for ________, or
vote for Romney…… or someone else?
(N=170) n %
Mitt Romney ------------------------------------------------------- 35.29
Jeb Bush--------------------------------------------------------------4.71
Chris Christie ------------------------------------------------------ 6.47
Ted Cruz ------------------------------------------------------------ 5.29
Mike Huckabee---------------------------------------------------- 8.82
Jon Huntsman------------------------------------------------------- 1.18
Bobby Jindal --------------------------------------------------------- 1.76
John Kasich---------------------------------------------------------- 0.59
Rand Paul ------------------------------------------------------------ 5.29
Rick Perry ------------------------------------------------------------ 4.71
Marco Rubio --------------------------------------------------------- 2.35
Paul Ryan ------------------------------------------------------------ 4.12
Rick Santorum----------------------------------------------------- 5.88
Scott Walker --------------------------------------------------------- 3.53
Undecided---------------------------------------------------------- 10.00
Refused --------------------------------------------------------------- 0.00
Huckabee led with 13% without Romney.
 
Here in PA we actually have a lot of nice state stores that sell alcohol... and a lot of lackluster ones unfortunately. There are some new-ish locations here that are so good you won't mind making the extra trip.

Also, the latest Corbett commentary is just another look into the mind of our braindead Governor and how he tries to put together a coherent thought but never fails to fuck it up. Can't wait until he's gone. He's a national embarrassment.

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2014/08/28/poll-wolf-maintaining-wide-lead-over-corbett-in-pennsylvania-governor-race/

That 25 point gap! it's over. The only question is, who is that 24% that still approves?
 
What do you mean by efficient?

As I said it makes the requirements and rules of welfare simpler.

Let me just ask you what do you think welfare is for? (I'm asking you your personal belief in why you support welfare payments not its justification in politics)

It depends on the type of welfare. Obviously disability is going to have much different purpose than unemployment. But in terms of unemployment I would say anybody who is looking for work or actively trying to make their situation better (such as attending school or volunteering),

What makes you think the system is not efficient enough?

What makes you think any of those rules are actually needed? What do you think they're needed for?

It's as I said in the post. There are a fair share of people who receive the benefits for things such as unemployment who simply don't do enough (such as look for X amount of jobs or go to school). The response to "What are they needed for" is the response I gave APK.
 
NC is weird here. Only beer and wine in grocery stores. Anything harder and you can only buy it at ABC, which is a state-run liquor store.

Same deal in VA. I don't mind it, though. It's kind of fun going to the ABC store. If it's just novelty, it sure hasn't worn off yet.
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
Sam Wang: Democrats have a 70% chance of retaining the Senate

Remember his predictions were more accurate than Nate Silver's in 2012
I like those numbers, but honestly, I've stopped worrying about it. Even if the GOP gets a majority, they still won't be able to pass anything with the filibuster around. Plus the veto if it somehow comes to that. It's not like anything is getting done now anyway, so nothing is really going to change. Things are in cryosleep until 2016.
 

Crisco

Banned
Utah is the worst, as expected. They sell only beer in grocery stores, with 4% ABV limit. To get liquor, wine or beer that doesn't taste like water, you have to go to a state run liquor or beer store. Thankfully, the liquor stores themselves are quite well stocked and the local microbrews are some of the best I've ever had. If you're ever in Utah around fall season, try the Wasatch Pumpkin Ale, it tastes like an alcoholic pumpkin pie.
 

pigeon

Banned
It's as I said in the post. There are a fair share of people who receive the benefits for things such as unemployment who simply don't do enough (such as look for X amount of jobs or go to school). The response to "What are they needed for" is the response I gave APK.

Why should we expect them to do anything?

Your post contains the implicit assumption that we should expect people receiving welfare to be looking for work. I don't agree with that assumption, and I'm asking you to defend it.

Personally, I think we have a moral responsibility to make sure people are fed and housed, and we should use social programs to meet that responsibility. I'm not particularly concerned over people taking advantage of those social programs, partly because they historically don't, and partly because I'm responsible for my choices, not theirs. So far from improving our enforcement efforts (which will probably cost more than it saves, because again, most people don't try to cheat welfare), I'd like to dismantle it while increasing welfare eligibility.

I preferred Wang's analysis last time, but I'm afraid I'm only buying into it because he's saying what I want to hear.

I think the poll numbers we're seeing are pointing towards basically a 50 or 51-seat Senate. Very little of the huge GOP advantage from 2010 is showing up here. Remember, by this time in 2010, everybody except Aaron Strife knew we were screwed.
 
I think the poll numbers we're seeing are pointing towards basically a 50 or 51-seat Senate. Very little of the huge GOP advantage from 2010 is showing up here. Remember, by this time in 2010, everybody except Aaron Strife knew we were screwed.
Well. Deep down I think I knew. By Election Day I was just hoping for 51 senate seats. The Senate races in 2010 weren't too bad all things considered.
 
http://election.princeton.edu/2014/08/28/senate-democrats-are-outperforming-expectations/

It's basically polls vs polls + "fundamentals."

We'll see which one wins out this round.

Yeah, I like his methodology of only sticking with polls. It makes a lot of sense to me. But I still don't think I'll ever shake that feeling that I'm just listening to him because I like what he's saying, even if I find his methodology sound. I'm not too stressed out about it though. I don't anticipate a big difference between the future where Republicans win versus the future where Democrats win. And I'll still side with his analysis against any other, based on his track record.
 
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