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PoliGAF 2017 |OT3| 13 Treasons Why

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S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
shinra-bansho said:
I mean putting on my neoliberal shill drone strike hat for a moment, taxation in France as a % of GDP is almost 50% and that still doesn't manage to cover general government spending in France since that's almost 60% of GDP.

So setting aside Macron, swoon, is/was there really no need for public sector reform in France? Open question.
Click to expand...

Where are you getting 50%?

I'm getting 23.3% according to the World Bank in 2014. (Tax Revenue by % GDP) Ranked 16th. Looks like their debt/GDP is in the 80s which is not terrible either.

Meanwhile, the US is 11%, ranked 41st.
The US does not have a spending problem, we have a taxation problem. (our % GDP is getting a bit high).
 
S

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
whyamihere said:
cool, when did I say otherwise?
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You said we shouldn't "like" his policies because they arent left. But it's all relative when the alternative is diet nazi.

Edit: We can not like policies of a candidate and still prefer them as vastly superior. Without resorting to the cult of personality

Edit two: what the gregarious frog above said too 😄

Wasn't trying to put words in mouths. consider this a Canadian apology
 
B

BlastProcessing

Member
sc0la said:
You said we shouldn't "like" his policies because they arent left. But it's all relative when the alternative is diet nazi.

Edit: We can not like policies of a candidate and still prefer them as vastly superior. Without resorting to the cult of personality

Edit two: what the gregarious frog above said too 😄

Wasn't trying to put words in mouths. consider this a Canadian apology
Click to expand...

I assume a Canadian apology is smothered in gravy and cheese curds.
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
sc0la said:
You said we shouldn't "like" his policies because they arent left. But it's all relative when the alternative is diet nazi.

Edit: We can not like policies of a candidate and still prefer them as vastly superior. Without resorting to the cult of personality

Edit two: what the gregarious frog above said too 😄

Wasn't trying to put words in mouths. consider this a Canadian apology
Click to expand...

does the apology come in a bag of milk

sorry if that was too strong of a reply earlier.
 
B

BlastProcessing

Member
@jdawsey1
Spicer is returning to the podium tomorrow. First on-camera briefing in quite a while.

giphy.gif
 
B

Bonen no Max'd

Banned
I'd like to try milk in a bag some day.

Aaron Strife said:
Exercising your right to vote while protesting the candidates?

Like the "none of the above" option in Nevada.

edit: lol even if None Of These Candidates "wins" in Nevada it still goes to the candidate with the plurality.
Click to expand...

ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Didn't millions of people just do that in France.
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I mean sure but at least doing it in a high-profile election like the French presidential election gives some sort of signal. Who is going to care about "none of the above" in a special election? Just seems like a huge waste of time to me.

unless those are the ten people who don't like social democracy but also don't like body slamming reporters but it still seems like way too much effort to me.
 
S

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
A

Autodidact

Banned
BlastProcessing said:
@jdawsey1
Spicer is returning to the podium tomorrow. First on-camera briefing in quite a while.

giphy.gif
Click to expand...

You know what, I actually missed him in some twisted way. He may a fucking dumbass liar like the rest of them, but at least he inspires a bit of sympathy, probably because of that perpetually tortured expression he wears and the way his own boss continually undercuts him. (Plus, that whole business with the Pope was grimy.)

I might forgive him if he writes a tell-all book one day. He probably falls into the "stupid but not a traitor" camp with Carson.
 
M

Mgoblue201

Won't stop picking the right nation
Autodidact said:
I hate to sound snarky, but reading the OT sometimes reminds me how little people know about our government and international relations. Trump's every move (or Tweet) seems to elicit cries of existential despair. "He's destroying our country!" they wail... despite the fact that he and his Congress have passed no meaningful legislation and made no irreversible changes. If Ossoff wins next month, the Republicans will be too scared to try anything too extreme, effectively paralyzing legislation. Barring another justice's death, we have the same Supreme Court as before Scalia's death. And then we have the Russia investigation that looks set to generate at least one headline a day for the foreseeable future.

The Merkel thread has people predicting the EU will leave us and defect to China when we still have the largest economy and military in the world. The latter seems unlikely to change under any president, and the former won't change unless we have another crisis - in which case the rest of the world will suffer, too. Yes, the other countries perceive us as stupid, and rightfully so, but they won't abandon us en masse. Yes, Trump has certainly eroded our soft power and perhaps accelerated the loss of superpower status, but I think our hegemony will outlast his presidency.

I mean, I acknowledge the damage he's inflicted to our reputation, and I fear the damage he COULD wreak if he gets his budget or policies passed. But now, I just can't bring myself to wallow in angst about a dimestore Berlusconi (the most apt comparison, I think) with abysmal approval ratings and a penchant for creating his own problems. Some sane voice in OT mentioned, and I agree, that he WANTS us to see him as a powerful, unstoppable strongman. Let's not give him the satisfaction.

Tell me you have full confidence in me if you disagree.
Click to expand...
There is plenty of damage that Trump can do without Congress. Granted, much of Trump's agenda is circumscribed by the courts (the administration can't just decide it will stop regulating greenhouse gases, for instance). But the damage to the environment that Trump will inflict by deliberately curtailing Obama's clean energy policy will be irreversible, barring some future technological breakthrough in carbon capture. The misery that the Trump administration can inflict through ICE, the Justice Department, etc is also irreversible.

Furthermore, no one should underestimate Trump's pettiness. As his domestic agenda stalls, he will use his executive powers in an increasingly irresponsible manner. There is a very real danger that he will do something stupid just because he feels impotent.
whyamihere said:
You shouldn't like Macron's policy platform if you consider yourself left or left-of-center.

You can like him (I think he's a good person for the EU), but I do not like his policy platform. He's to the right of many Democrats in the US, if you were to put such a thing on a scale.
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Macron's proposals to change the French welfare state and labor laws are still far more generous than anything that could reasonably be enacted in the United States.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Its becoming clearer to me that a segment of the left sees what we consider ideals and institutions of the US as being such fundamental lies that any outrage at their "supposed" violation reveals the foolishness of the speaker for thinking there was something to be violated.

I'm...not sure how to react to that, or engage in that conversation? Don't get me wrong, tons of US ideals from fair rule of law to freedom from discrimination have been varying degrees of bullshit for decades and centuries, but this attitude just seems to...write off any and all accomplishment?
 
C

CrimzonSamurai

Member
The Technomancer said:
Its becoming clearer to me that a segment of the left sees what we consider ideals and institutions of the US as being such fundamental lies that any outrage at their "supposed" violation reveals the foolishness of the speaker for thinking there was something to be violated.

I'm...not sure how to react to that, or engage in that conversation? Don't get me wrong, tons of US ideals from fair rule of law to freedom from discrimination have been varying degrees of bullshit for decades and centuries, but this attitude just seems to...write off any and all accomplishment?
Click to expand...

I don't understand it either. I think acknowledging our shortcomings while striving to fulfill, for lack of a better phrase, "American Ideals" should be the goal of every right-thinking citizen and is also my personal definition of patriotism.

I mean if you just out and out hate everything about the mythology of the nation then why bother being politically involved....

Or living here.
 
A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
The Technomancer said:
Its becoming clearer to me that a segment of the left sees what we consider ideals and institutions of the US as being such fundamental lies that any outrage at their "supposed" violation reveals the foolishness of the speaker for thinking there was something to be violated.

I'm...not sure how to react to that, or engage in that conversation? Don't get me wrong, tons of US ideals from fair rule of law to freedom from discrimination have been varying degrees of bullshit for decades and centuries, but this attitude just seems to...write off any and all accomplishment?
Click to expand...

I've mostly only run into this from apathetic people who call themselves libertarians but really just use this argument to defend their apathy, but I have seen it from a few people who were legitimately putting forth the argument. Far left people who make it that I've seen just refer to bad actions in the past and basically say anyone upset now is a hypocrite (nevermind that many of these past actions are before any of us were born). Far right folks who have made this argument (and maybe this is only because I'm from the Bible Belt) tend to refer to religious issues with the country as a justification for the violation of institutions or processes. "The Republicans will lead according to God's will, which supersedes man's laws, so there's really no issue with Russian interference since it led to God's candidate taking charge."
 
K

kess

Member
CrimzonSamurai said:
I don't understand it either. I think acknowledging our shortcomings while striving to fulfill, for lack of a better phrase, "American Ideals" should be the goal of every right-thinking citizen and is also my personal definition of patriotism.

I mean if you just out and out hate everything about the mythology of the nation then why bother being politically involved....

Or living here.
Click to expand...

Bu...bubuhbut nations are based on arbitrary lines and why should anyone need fight for the ideals of any country? People are so dumb! When middle class technocratic liberalism meets nihilistic pseudo-socialism.
 
C

CrimzonSamurai

Member
kess said:
Bu...bubuhbut nations are based on arbitrary lines and why should anyone need fight for the ideals of any country? People are so dumb! When middle class technocratic liberalism meets nihilistic pseudo-socialism.
Click to expand...

These people just never gave a shit to actually pay attention in history class. Therefore they lack the understanding of how radical the American Experiment and our Constitution actually was for its time.

It's really something special and it needs to be defended at any and all costs.
 
M

Macho Madness

Member
I gather it's a sense that so much of the view of government and the way it operates was always a facade meant to uphold the elite order. That the norms that are breaking on a daily basis now are not bound by laws but were just the usual way of doing things until now. Some people were always keenly aware of this and can be snide when it appears people are now just finding this out.

I've also seen a lot more anger at the constitution itself. It's a frail document that protects the powerful all too often while lacking basic rights for all. Especially when what matters most is who's interpreting what people meant 250 years ago.
 
K

kess

Member
If there's one thing the right manages to do successfully, it's instilling a certain sense of moral purpose to America even though the ideals are horribly twisted and the motivations are crooked on both ends. There's a lot of people who have a lot to lose who are convinced they are doing the Right Thing.
 
N

neurosisxeno

Member
kess said:
If there's one thing the right manages to do successfully, it's instilling a certain sense of moral purpose to America even though the ideals are horribly twisted and the motivations are crooked on both ends. There's a lot of people who have a lot to lose who are convinced they are doing the Right Thing.
Click to expand...

It blows my mind that The Right can simultaneously champion how amazing America is but also describe it as some immoral shithole that only they can fix.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
neurosisxeno said:
It blows my mind that The Right can simultaneously champion how amazing America is but also describe it as some immoral shithole that only they can fix.
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Shit on big city liberals and then co-opt 9/11 as real America

Trump calling out Cruz on that is literally the only time I ever cheered for that man, even though I know he didn't give a shit about it ("Oh boy now Trump tower is the largest building in NYC")
 
K

kirblar

Member
whyamihere said:
You shouldn't like Macron's policy platform if you consider yourself left or left-of-center.

You can like him (I think he's a good person for the EU), but I do not like his policy platform. He's to the right of many Democrats in the US, if you were to put such a thing on a scale.
Click to expand...
If you think of an economy as a sliding scale where going too far to the left or right is a bad thing and there's a happy range of "pretty good" in the middle, I can understand where Macron's policy preferences are coming from, because France is not the United States and there are a lot of unintended downsides to going that far left on your economic policy. Been looking up articles on it and this is the best I've found so far: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/apr/30/emmanuel-macron-france-economic-riddle

France's economic performance in recent years has been underwhelming, especially when compared to that of Germany. Fifteen years ago, the eurozone's two biggest countries enjoyed comparable living standards. Today, Germany's are almost a fifth higher than those in France.
Click to expand...
From the mid-1990s to the start of the financial crisis in 2007, only Italy among the rich members of the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development has grown less quickly than France. Since the crash, France's recovery has lagged well behind the US, the UK and Germany.
Click to expand...

The back half of the article also implies that France has been hurt by the same eurozone monetary issues that have been doing damage to Greece and other struggling countries. The author actually seems to speed right by the cause when he says
The Keynesian take on France, by contrast, would be that adjustment to shocks tends not to be automatic but comes through the use of all the main economic levers: interest rates, the exchange rate and fiscal policy.
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- the Eurozone prevents Fiscal policy on a nation by nation basis! They voluntarily abandoned one of the important Keynesian levers when they created and joined the Euro, which is why this proposal-
Secondly, he wants to complete the monetary union project by having a eurozone budget managed by a eurozone parliament and a eurozone finance minister.
Click to expand...
is so important for them!

Looking through articles on Macron, I'm not seeing anything I outright object to. I'm very much left of center, but I'm (so far) not seeing any bright red lines that he's crossing. In the context of competing w/ other EU countries, the corporate tax cut makes sense and can be made up w/ increases elsewhere. (Offsetting corporate decreases w/ increases on high earners has been a policy proposal I've seen from libertarians quite often.)

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-macron-programme-fact-idUSKBN17G19H

Flagship proposals involve the politically sensitive merger of myriad public- and private-sector retirement pension systems as well as a merger of unemployment benefit systems, which currently differ for regular wage-earners and the self-employed.

Broad financial targets include keeping France's budget deficit below the EU-mandated 3 percent of GDP, lowering the jobless rate to 7 percent by the end of his potential five-year term from around 10 percent now, an investment plan of 50 billion euros and public spending savings seen reaching 60 billion annually by the end of the mandate.

Among other key ideas:

- Corporate tax would be cut from 33 to 25 percent.

- The CICE tax credit system for firms would be converted into permanent payroll tax breaks for low-wage workers.

- The 35-hour legal work week would remain but negotiation of real work hours would be left to company level.

- Low-wage earners would be exempted from certain social welfare levies, a measure that would put an extra month's wage per year in the employee's pocket.
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Like w/ this block, I'm seeing an increase in the social safety net for the non-working self-employed, an EITC (which is a great anti-poverty tool) and a tax break for the lower class. These are very good things aimed at genuinely making things better for people - they're just not using a left-wing toolbox to do it.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Macho Madness said:
I gather it's a sense that so much of the view of government and the way it operates was always a facade meant to uphold the elite order. That the norms that are breaking on a daily basis now are not bound by laws but were just the usual way of doing things until now. Some people were always keenly aware of this and can be snide when it appears people are now just finding this out.

I've also seen a lot more anger at the constitution itself. It's a frail document that protects the powerful all too often while lacking basic rights for all. Especially when what matters most is who's interpreting what people meant 250 years ago.
Click to expand...
The Founding Fathers trusted elites and didn't trust the population at large. This is pretty well known. I also think they've been vindicated in this distrust, but that many of their attempts to rein things in structurally have not held up and achieved the desired results. (see: Electoral College)
 
S

Snowman Prophet of Doom

Member
Am I right in thinking that McMastery, Mattis, Kelly, and others immolating themselves on the Trump pyre are likely doing so to try and save face for the US? It's hard for me to square the genuine decency and intelligence some in the administration have with the stupidity and evil they're letting themselves be party to, which makes me think there are layers at play beyond the obvious.

Edit: Also, how long did pigeon get banned for indirectly wishing some dude dead?
 
T

Teggy

Member
OMG these freaking dumbasses

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/27/trump-restaurant-calorie-posting-rule-238873

President Donald Trump’s push to reduce the government burden on business is instead causing chaos in the food industry after he suddenly yanked a rule requiring calories to be posted on menus nationwide.

Trump’s Food and Drug Administration delayed the rule just four days before it was supposed to go into effect this month, jolting food purveyors from steakhouses to convenience stores who’d already been trying to comply. And even though the FDA touted the delay as a way to reduce costs and increase flexibility for businesses, the change did not come early enough to save these companies any money. Many had already spent millions of dollars printing and shipping new menus to thousands of locations across the country so they would be ready for the original May 5 deadline.
Click to expand...
 
K

kirblar

Member
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
Am I right in thinking that McMastery, Mattis, Kelly, and others immolating themselves on the Trump pyre are likely doing so to try and save face for the US? It's hard for me to square the genuine decency and intelligence some in the administration have with the stupidity and evil they're letting themselves be party to, which makes me think there are layers at play beyond the obvious.

Edit: Also, how long did pigeon get banned for indirectly wishing some dude dead?
Click to expand...
McMaster and Mattis are both career military who weren't associated w/ the campaign. I don't think that's true for Kelly.
 
B

Bonen no Max'd

Banned
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
Am I right in thinking that McMastery, Mattis, Kelly, and others immolating themselves on the Trump pyre are likely doing so to try and save face for the US? It's hard for me to square the genuine decency and intelligence some in the administration have with the stupidity and evil they're letting themselves be party to, which makes me think there are layers at play beyond the obvious.

Edit: Also, how long did pigeon get banned for indirectly wishing some dude dead?
Click to expand...
I think his ban just ended tonight lol
 
O

Orbis Tabula

Member
Reliable sources say water will be wet tomorrow.

And by tomorrow, I obviously mean Wednesday, since it's Tuesday morning now. Just in case I need to by more time.
 
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