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PoliGAF 2017 |OT3| 13 Treasons Why

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I mean it's nice to oppose Nazis but typically if someone has even center-left political goals they would appoint center-left politicians to enact them, not center-right ones.

Look, if the French republicans were exactly like OUR republicans I would agree. But they aren't. Fillion and his party stood firm in telling people to vote for Macron, and if Macron plays this right, Macron can more easily secure French republican votes on center-left legislation.
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Look, if the French republicans were exactly like OUR republicans I would agree. But they aren't. Fillion and his party stood firm in telling people to vote for Macron, and if Macron plays this right, Macron can more easily secure French republican votes on center-left legislation.

Have you actually looked at Macron's policy platform (to the extent it exists!)? It's not centre-left legislation! It's not even left legislation at all!
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Mélenchon was equally as bad a Le Pen

I mean, my first preference was Hamon, but either way this is some terrible whataboutism. We're not talking about Melenchon, we're talking about the elected President of France and his appointing a Prime Minister who comes from a party that has bought into FN narratives, persecuted minorities, consistently repressed the gay community, and savaged the welfare state. I didn't like Clinton much, but at least I had total confidence she wasn't going to ask the Democrats to nominate a Republican Senate leader if the Democrats had won the Senate.
 
Look, if the French republicans were exactly like OUR republicans I would agree. But they aren't. Fillion and his party stood firm in telling people to vote for Macron, and if Macron plays this right, Macron can more easily secure French republican votes on center-left legislation.
Macron's policy goals include lowering taxes, cutting public sector employment, weakening collective bargaining rights, and raising military spending. He's appointing a Republican because that's what they want to do too.
 
Look, if the French republicans were exactly like OUR republicans I would agree. But they aren't. Fillion and his party stood firm in telling people to vote for Macron, and if Macron plays this right, Macron can more easily secure French republican votes on center-left legislation.
It doesn't seem to me like he'll do that. My guess is he'll be union busting, trickledowner but likely won't make a big fuss outt of things like the black women festival controversy etc, or push new anti Muslim laws etc, or things someone more conservative would do

It would be nice to see him push for social justice policies and further protections of minority classes rather than just sidestepping and not attacking them but I'm not convinced
 
Macron's policy goals include lowering taxes, cutting public sector employment, weakening collective bargaining rights, and raising military spending. He's appointing a Republican because that's what they want to do too.

Nvm then. I mean I like increased military spending considering that Europe needs to build up its own defenses against Putin more, but the rest of that shit is pretty bad.
 
Aren't some of the GOP in Russia's pocket? I would guess that might be a mug reason why.

French conservatives could also just be decent people with different political ideologies to most of us. US conservatives last year gave up that moral argument when they mostly fell in line. The Democratic Party should do everything it can to get these people to just stay home from now on; that way we won't need their votes and I can sleep at night backing a party that doesn't flirt around with Nazis.

This past year has really got me jealous of France. I wish I could discuss politics! But in the US, that means either talking to people I agree with (mostly) or Nazis, which I won't do.
 

kirblar

Member
France is a socialist hell where labor laws have gone out of control, the public sector is too large, and taxes are enormous. There is a reason Hollande sacrificed his political career by ramming labor law reform through Parliament.
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or just framed so hyberbolically that it becomes impossible to take seriously.
 
French conservatives could also just be decent people with different political ideologies to most of us. US conservatives last year gave up that moral argument when they mostly fell in line. The Democratic Party should do everything it can to get these people to just stay home from now on; that way we won't need their votes and I can sleep at night backing a party that doesn't flirt around with Nazis.

This past year has really got me jealous of France. I wish I could discuss politics! But in the US, that means either talking to people I agree with (mostly) or Nazis, which I won't do.
It's pretty sad to see it in the shape it is. I highly doubt we will see any change at all in outcry lifetime.
 

KingK

Member
French conservatives could also just be decent people with different political ideologies to most of us. US conservatives last year gave up that moral argument when they mostly fell in line. The Democratic Party should do everything it can to get these people to just stay home from now on; that way we won't need their votes and I can sleep at night backing a party that doesn't flirt around with Nazis.

This past year has really got me jealous of France. I wish I could discuss politics! But in the US, that means either talking to people I agree with (mostly) or Nazis, which I won't do.
While they certainly had a better outcome than the US, I would not be particularly envious of this French election either. Macron is better than Le Pen but still pretty awful. None of the four major players were particularly appealing to me.

Germany is the one I'm really jealous of. Merkel is the only conservative politician that I deeply respect, even if I'd end up voting SPD.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Well, Chuck Woolery sure has gone totally white supremacist since his Love Connection days.

He's been white supremacist for a while now.

I eagerly await to see Pat Sajak come out as one too.

(no really, he's a hardcore Trump supporter as well)
 

royalan

Member
Canadian-Prime-Minister-Justin-Trudeau-and-French-President-Emman.jpg


Still shipping.

Now with starcrossed lovers twist.

You say, I only hear what I want to...
 
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or just framed so hyberbolically that it becomes impossible to take seriously.
I usually post sarcastically but this was serious. Explain to me why Hollande, a socialist, chose to cause riots with labor reform legislation. Is it not because 10% unemployment and a rigid, entrepreneurially dead economy required it?
 
I mean putting on my neoliberal shill drone strike hat for a moment, taxation in France as a % of GDP is almost 50% and that still doesn't manage to cover general government spending in France since that's almost 60% of GDP.

So setting aside Macron, swoon, is/was there really no need for public sector reform in France? Open question.
 

Kusagari

Member
French conservatives could also just be decent people with different political ideologies to most of us. US conservatives last year gave up that moral argument when they mostly fell in line. The Democratic Party should do everything it can to get these people to just stay home from now on; that way we won't need their votes and I can sleep at night backing a party that doesn't flirt around with Nazis.

This past year has really got me jealous of France. I wish I could discuss politics! But in the US, that means either talking to people I agree with (mostly) or Nazis, which I won't do.

US conservatives shouldn't be excused for their actions but we also need to admit that our political system is what led to many of them falling in line. If we had a multiparty system like France you would have seen much more opposition to Trump.
 
Final vote tally for Montana is in, Gianforte finished at 49.9%.

Damn you, third party voters! If you all (literally all) had gone for Quist this wouldn't have happened!
 
US conservatives shouldn't be excused for their actions but we also need to admit that our political system is what led to many of them falling in line. If we had a multiparty system like France you would have seen much more opposition to Trump.

We basically do though. France's first round was basically a primary where the two candidates that came out represented different factions. But the difference is that when faced with what came out of their side of the election, French conservatives either voted Macron or didn't vote instead of mostly voting Le Pen. People that voted during the primary for Jeb, Cruz, Kasich, etc... could have done that too, and I don't think anyone should ever forget that or let them move past it without comment.
 
You shouldn't like Macron's policy platform if you consider yourself left or left-of-center.

You can like him (I think he's a good person for the EU), but I do not like his policy platform. He's to the right of many Democrats in the US, if you were to put such a thing on a scale.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
WaPo: How President Trump consumes — or does not consume — top-secret intelligence

This article's funny. There's a lot of subtle shade thrown by the WaPo reporters, while folks like Coats and Pompeo try to portray Trump as a big boy regarding intelligence briefings.
“A president who I think came into the office thinking he would focus on domestic issues — ‘make America great again’ — has learned that you inherit the world and its problems when you’re president of the United States,” said Daniel Coats, director of national intelligence and a frequent participant in Trump’s briefings.

“One time he came in and said, ‘All right, what’s the bad news this morning?’ ” Coats added. “You can see the weight of the burden on the shoulders of the president.”
Trump learned that time is continuous and that the presidency is actually an important position. Look at that maturation!
Pompeo added: “He always asks hard questions, which I think is the sign of a good intelligence consumer. He’ll challenge analytic lines that we’ll present, which is again completely appropriate. . . . It is frequently the case that we’ll find that we need to go back and do more work to develop something, to round something out.”

Trump will task his briefers with returning the next day with more information about a particular subject, or will turn to McMaster and say, “General, give me more information,” according to Coats.
Trump occasionally asks follow-up questions or for more information. Clearly a smart dude!
Trump also has encouraged his briefers to include as many visual elements as possible. This is a reflection, aides said, of Trump’s career as a real estate developer who evaluated blueprints and renderings to visualize what a property eventually would look like.

“Sometimes,” Coats said, “pictures do say a thousand words.”
But you know, often times they do not.
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
You shouldn't like Macron's policy platform if you consider yourself left or left-of-center.

You can like him (I think he's a good person for the EU), but I do not like his policy platform. He's to the right of many Democrats in the US, if you were to put such a thing on a scale.
cool, but it's a compromise some would gladly take over the alternative. If you told people they could replace Trump with Jeb tomorrow a lot of people on "the left" would take that (even while disliking his policies)

does this mean you don't want my autograph
I'd love it! 😍
if it comes with Marks too.
 

Kusagari

Member
We basically do though. France's first round was basically a primary where the two candidates that came out represented different factions. But the difference is that when faced with what came out of their side of the election, French conservatives either voted Macron or didn't vote instead of mostly voting Le Pen. People that voted during the primary for Jeb, Cruz, Kasich, etc... could have done that too, and I don't think anyone should ever forget that or let them move past it without comment.

I'm speaking of the politicians themselves. The fact that being a Democrat or Republican is the only way to achieve power does a lot to stymie real opposition to Trump from the GOP in the house or senate. It would be different if their was a viable third or fourth party.
 
cool, but it's a compromise some would gladly take over the alternative. If you told people they could replace Trump with Jeb tomorrow a lot of people on "the left" would take that (even while disliking his policies)

I'd love it! 😍
if it comes with Marks too.
I don't think anyone said that they prefer Trump to Macron, only that he is not a friend of the left.
 

Ogodei

Member
Macron's policy goals include lowering taxes, cutting public sector employment, weakening collective bargaining rights, and raising military spending. He's appointing a Republican because that's what they want to do too.

So he's basically a Republican who's willing to admit De Gaulle was wrong about Algeria?
 
Wait wat? Really? what was the final win by? When I last checked it was only 6%. Did it get even narrower?

Edit: NYT here says it was 50.2% to 44.1%.
https://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/montana-house-special-election

The Montana Secretary of State's website.

http://mtelectionresults.gov/resultsSW.aspx?type=FED&map=CTY

It rounds up but Gianforte's vote total as reported there comes out to 49.89%.

I see the discrepancy - the 49.9% counts undervotes. Guessing just people who turned out for local initiatives or wrote in or something
 
NYT not taking the holiday off

Investigation Turns to Kushner's Motives in Meeting With a Putin Ally

NYT said:
WASHINGTON — Jared Kushner, the president's son-in-law and senior adviser, was looking for a direct line to President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia — a search that in mid-December found him in a room with a Russian banker whose financial institution was deeply intertwined with Russian intelligence, and remains under sanction by the United States.

Federal and congressional investigators are now examining what exactly Mr. Kushner and the Russian banker, Sergey N. Gorkov, wanted from each other. The banker is a close associate of Mr. Putin, but he has not been known to play a diplomatic role for the Russian leader. That has raised questions about why he was meeting with Mr. Kushner at a crucial moment in the presidential transition, according to current and former officials familiar with the investigations.

The New York Times first reported the meeting between Mr. Kushner and Mr. Gorkov in March, but the White House at the time did not explain its aim. That article quoted a White House spokeswoman, Hope Hicks, who said that the meeting came at the request of the Russian ambassador to the United States, Sergey I. Kislyak, with whom Mr. Kushner had met earlier in December at Trump Tower to discuss opening a communications channel with Russian officials during the presidential transition.

But the half-hour meeting with Mr. Gorkov since has come under increasing scrutiny. The current and former American officials now say it may have been part of an effort by Mr. Kushner to establish a direct line to Mr. Putin outside of established diplomatic channels.

Some dot connecting and an implication that Kush ball's quest for a back channel didn't stop with his meeting with Kislyak.
 
I'm speaking of the politicians themselves. The fact that being a Democrat or Republican is the only way to achieve power does a lot to stymie real opposition to Trump from the GOP in the house or senate. It would be different if their was a viable third or fourth party.

I can see this at the Presidential level (where you more or less need to mold yourself to one of two national ideologies as broadly as you can), but in the House or Senate you just have to win your state. If your brand of politics is actually more popular then you can just climb the ranks that way through a primary challenge.

The one real advantage I see in systems that look like France's is that while it ultimately still ends up with 2 choices (which is just math), those 2 choices are easier to loudly replace, so to speak. Like, if the GOP got so bad that they starting going the way of the Whigs or something, then they'd get replaced by the Libertarians most likely. But that takes much more extreme conditions; you need a complete collapse of the party.
 
Adding up the vote totals has Quist a couple thousand short even with every single third-party vote.
Yeah that statistic included people who didn't vote in MT-AL but turned in a ballot anyway.

On the subject, still impressive that Quist nearly matched Clinton's vote total compared to Gianforte who only got a little over two-thirds of Trump's vote. If that happens everywhere next November Republicans are in deep dogshit.
 
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