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PoliGAF 2017 |OT5| The Man In the High Chair

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Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
It's politics. the guy is a scam artist and this op ed is a pile of shit too.

Well yeah, but that's a ton of ammunition for a primary opponent under current GOP Orthodoxy.

I still don't think his voting pattern will change though.
 
DW-Nominate ranks Jeff Flake, based off his voting record, as more conservative than every Republican in the Senate not named Ted Cruz, Mike Lee and Rand Paul.

democratic-congresswoman-kyrsten-sinema-touts-republican-andy-biggs-in-cd5_1.jpg
 

sphagnum

Banned
Why on earth would you feel that?

There are plenty of good history teachers around the country- the issues w/ neoconfederate stuff are systemic.

You're taking what I said too seriously, I'm just musing on the fact that I see people complain about history teachers online a lot.
 
Yeah... I don't trust this "everyone reports to Kelly" thing. That's just Trump wanting to be even lazier and trying to come up with a good excuse for it. The policy will last as long as his vacation.
 
My breaks a little bit when I realize that, in a different life, we'd be talking about Gabby Giffords challenging Flake.

And we never would've had to deal with that vile witch McSally.
 

Blader

Member
Third, Republicans need to stand up for institutions and prerogatives, like the Senate filibuster, that have served us well for more than two centuries.

And when it came time to preserve or eliminate the SCOTUS filibuster, how exactly did Flake vote?

I want more moderate Republicans who aren't afraid to stand up to Trump and his administration in government. But Collins, Murkowski, and a handful of House Republicans are the only members of that party who have ever actually backed up these sentiments with real votes. Fuck this guy and all the other pretend-outraged Republicans who still work in lockstep with a president they know is hollowing out their country.

Trump tweets are gonna be good later today.

Has Trump ever read an op-ed in his life?
 
And when it came time to preserve or eliminate the SCOTUS filibuster, how exactly did Flake vote?



Has Trump ever read an op-ed in his life?

Someone will give him the cliff notes, and he'll probably threaten to defund Arizona, a state owned largely by the federal government.
 

Ogodei

Member
Another bit about civil war revisionism, it is definitely true that the war was brought on by economic and cultural differences between the North and the South, but those differences were themselves brought on by slavery (or at the very least, the plantation economy, but slavery was foundational to that).

Slavery breeds what are called "extractive" institutions, whereby the government starts to get in its head that its job is to accumulate wealth rather than to improve the state or the people's condition. Extractive institutions warp both culture and economics.

Although some of the South's cultural differences are because different groups of Englishmen settled there predominantly. South was mostly Borderers (folks from around Hadrian's Wall) and Restoration-era Cavaliers. North had more Quakers and Puritans, though both groups settled in both places. But slavery cemented those differences and is why Dixie only slowly recovered (and places right in the heart of Dixie, like Mississippi, Alabama, and Arkansas, never recovered their former economic clout). Only places northerners migrated to like Florida, Texas, North Carolina, Virginia, and Georgia became economic powerhouses anew.
 
I learned that the civil war was fought over er state's rights... to continue slavery.

That was the 70s and 80s in the North where a great number of Republicans still believed in civil rights* and hadn't gone full Southern Strategy.

*on paper
 

watershed

Banned
Another bit about civil war revisionism, it is definitely true that the war was brought on by economic and cultural differences between the North and the South, but those differences were themselves brought on by slavery (or at the very least, the plantation economy, but slavery was foundational to that).

Slavery breeds what are called "extractive" institutions, whereby the government starts to get in its head that its job is to accumulate wealth rather than to improve the state or the people's condition. Extractive institutions warp both culture and economics.

Although some of the South's cultural differences are because different groups of Englishmen settled there predominantly. South was mostly Borderers (folks from around Hadrian's Wall) and Restoration-era Cavaliers. North had more Quakers and Puritans, though both groups settled in both places. But slavery cemented those differences and is why Dixie only slowly recovered (and places right in the heart of Dixie, like Mississippi, Alabama, and Arkansas, never recovered their former economic clout). Only places northerners migrated to like Florida, Texas, North Carolina, Virginia, and Georgia became economic powerhouses anew.
The institution of slavery itself was the primary cause of the civil war. The southern states violated the Missouri Compromise when they tried to expand slavery to new territories in the west and every major presidential candidate dedicated a significant amount of their campaign laying out their plans for slavery/secession. The "slave question" dominated all of national politics before states actually started seceding.
 
It's politics. the guy is a scam artist and this op ed is a pile of shit too.

---
I had decent US History teachers but they all ultimately sucked for not delving into how the country really treated and continues to treat black people and all minority groups. You basically have to go read some external sources to get some knowledge on race in this country in 95% of US Histoy classes.


I think it is more complicated than that. Politics is a team sport, but the Republican Party makes it more like a tribe were you have to conform. You NEED to be seen as a conservative other wise you will be labeled a RINO by some of the core constituents and powerful interest groups will no longer support you. You need that support to win and those credentials of being a conservative to rise your stakes.

Some of this is lined up in an article I read:

http://mattgrossmann.tumblr.com/asymmetric
The Republican Party is the vehicle of an ideological movement while the Democratic Party is a coalition of social groups. Republican leaders prize conservatism and attract support by pledging loyalty to broad values. Democratic leaders instead seek concrete government action, appealing to voters' group identities and interests by endorsing specific policies.

http://www.matthewg.org/ideologicalrepublicans.pdf
The Democratic Party, she observed, was structured as an alliance of component constituencies, with official caucuses representing sub-groups that served as ”primary reference groups" for their membership and that often defined the fault lines of intra-party debate. The Republican Party, in contrast, was bound together by a common conservative identity, with internal conflicts representing disagreement over whether or not particular party members were ”real" Republicans.

That is why in primaries everyone tries to out conservative everyone else, but some go crazy about it others try to tone it down. They try to appear conservative with their voting record to remain loyalty to the ideology , even if they know the bills that they are voting for won't get anywhere or it is a disastrous bill. You see this with ACA. Promising to repeal ACA is the most right-wing position because it is the only right-wing position they can take; they know it wouldn't ever happen or it'll be a disaster, but they have to support it because it makes them a conservative.

I'm not resolving of Flake, but I like to point out the context of it. I largely blame the entirety of the Republican Party including the voters. You can see that what much of the Republicans want is someone like Trump. He is almost the personification of nationalistic conservative. I personally think the direction of the party is going to get far worse and the voters along with it.
 
Why on earth would you feel that?

There are plenty of good history teachers around the country- the issues w/ neoconfederate stuff are systemic.

I agree with this. The quality of my history instruction varied quite a bit, but certainly the textbooks were influenced by Neo-Confederate ideas. The better teachers I had pretty much ignored the textbooks.
 
My breaks a little bit when I realize that, in a different life, we'd be talking about Gabby Giffords challenging Flake.

And we never would've had to deal with that vile witch McSally.
Man, I think we'd be talking about Senator Giffords' reelection next year.

Jared Loughner can burn in Hell for eternity.

I hope one day that Giffords will be able to return to public life in some way.
 

Ryuuroden

Member
It's politics. the guy is a scam artist and this op ed is a pile of shit too.

---
I had decent US History teachers but they all ultimately sucked for not delving into how the country really treated and continues to treat black people and all minority groups. You basically have to go read some external sources to get some knowledge on race in this country in 95% of US Histoy classes.

I don't think flake is trying to portray himself as a moderate here. I think he's just aknowledging the win at any cost may have been a mistake. A person can be an extreme conservative while at the same time not be a fan of what the republican party has become or realize trump is undermining their entire agenda.
 

watershed

Banned
I don't think flake is trying to portray himself as a moderate here. I think he's just aknowledging the win at any cost may have been a mistake. A person can be an extreme conservative while at the same time not be a fan of what the republican party has become or realize trump is undermining their entire agenda.
Yea this is much more his point. He is a hardcore conservative and will always be. He is not pretending to be a moderate. He's just decrying the nature of Republican politics today. No one should expect him to become a moderate if re-elected and hopefully he won't be re-elected at all.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Jeff Flake can fuck off. Too little, way too fucking late.

The bottom line for me: I'm not giving him any benefit of the doubt until he starts actually voting against Trump on the issues he is complaining about.
 

jtb

Banned
The column would be more compelling (still shameless pandering) if he replaced 'Trump' with 'McConnell.'

The only 'principle' Jeff Flake cares about is getting re-elected in 2018, and he's worried about losing his job thanks to Trump. Well, in that respect, and that respect only, he's right.

The bottom line for me: I'm not giving him any benefit of the doubt until he starts actually voting against Trump on the issues he is complaining about.

Yup. all this nonsense about 'conservative principles' is disingenuous garbage because Trump is passing the ultraconservative agenda - he's already cowing to them, now the other way around (largely because he's an idiot with no ideological leanings other than fascistic violence against minorities)
 

ivajz

Member
Trump dictated son's misleading statement on meeting with Russian lawyer

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...4_story.html?utm_term=.503ea3a3cd70&tid=sm_tw


On the sidelines of the Group of 20 summit in Germany last month, President Trump's advisers discussed how to respond to a new revelation that Trump's oldest son had met with a Russian lawyer during the 2016 campaign — a disclosure the advisers knew carried political and potentially legal peril.

The strategy, the advisers agreed, should be for Donald Trump Jr. to release a statement to get ahead of the story. They wanted to be truthful, so their account couldn't be repudiated later if the full details emerged.

But within hours, at the president's direction, the plan changed.

Flying home from Germany on July 8 aboard Air Force One, Trump personally dictated a statement in which Trump Jr. said he and the Russian lawyer had ”primarily discussed a program about the adoption of Russian children" when they met in June 2016, according to multiple people with knowledge of the deliberations. The statement, issued to the New York Times as it prepared a story, emphasized that the subject of the meeting was ”not a campaign issue at the time."

The claims were later shown to be misleading.
 

Kusagari

Member
Yea this is much more his point. He is a hardcore conservative and will always be. He is not pretending to be a moderate. He's just decrying the nature of Republican politics today. No one should expect him to become a moderate if re-elected and hopefully he won't be re-elected at all.

Even then, he's decrying the loss of Senate norms like the filibuster when he's gleefully gone along with every fucked up thing McConnell has done.

Did we ever hear him make a single peep about how health care has been handled?

Nope. Fuck him.
 

Hopfrog

Member
Another bit about civil war revisionism, it is definitely true that the war was brought on by economic and cultural differences between the North and the South, but those differences were themselves brought on by slavery (or at the very least, the plantation economy, but slavery was foundational to that).

Slavery breeds what are called "extractive" institutions, whereby the government starts to get in its head that its job is to accumulate wealth rather than to improve the state or the people's condition. Extractive institutions warp both culture and economics.

Although some of the South's cultural differences are because different groups of Englishmen settled there predominantly. South was mostly Borderers (folks from around Hadrian's Wall) and Restoration-era Cavaliers. North had more Quakers and Puritans, though both groups settled in both places. But slavery cemented those differences and is why Dixie only slowly recovered (and places right in the heart of Dixie, like Mississippi, Alabama, and Arkansas, never recovered their former economic clout). Only places northerners migrated to like Florida, Texas, North Carolina, Virginia, and Georgia became economic powerhouses anew.

Have you been reading Albion's Seed?
 

broz0rs

Member
lol that Wapo bomb. This seems like a two person convo (instruction) between son and father, so interesting how this could have leaked
 

pigeon

Banned
lol that Wapo bomb. This seems like a two person convo (instruction) between son and father, so interesting how this could have leaked

We know there was at least one other person in the conversation because I very much doubt Donald Trump Jr. takes dictation.







OH MY GOD IT'S HOPE HICKS
 

Ecotic

Member
Looking at the coverage, it's obvious why Scaramucci was fired. He upstaged Trump and hogged the spotlight ever since his press conference. He was acting like the master of someone else's house.
 

Hopfrog

Member
Looking at the coverage, it's obvious why Scaramucci was fired. He upstaged Trump and hogged the spotlight ever since his press conference. He was acting like the master of someone else's house.

Yep. It's the Trump Show 24/7. Easiest way to get on his shit list is to get more attention than the boss.
 

jtb

Banned
Also I agree 100% with whoever said AM Joy sucked on PSA.

No ideas, no critique of 2016, no new messaging - the way for Dems to win in 2018 and 2020 is just to run it back one more time, sans baggage. Okay.
 
So something I've been looking at in swing states is which states did Trump actually do better than Romney's %. And with Romney states Hillary almost won, which states did Hillary actually do better than Obama in?

For Trump:

Iowa - 4.97% swing from Romney to Trump
Ohio - 4.0% swing from Romney to Trump
Michigan - 2.79% swing from Romney to Trump
Pennsylvania - 1.59% swing from Romney to Trump
Wisconsin - 1.33% swing from Romney to Trump
New Hampshire: .10% swing from Romney to Trump
Florida - 0.11% swing AWAY from Romney

North Carolina - 0.55% swing AWAY from Romney
Minnesota - 0.08% swing AWAY from Romney

For Hillary:

North Carolina - 2.18% swing AWAY from Obama

Georgia - 0.42% swing from Obama to Hillary
Arizona - 1.01% swing from Obama to Hillary
Texas - 1.86% swing from Obama to Hillary

Few things stand out:

1) Hillary made real gains in Arizona and Texas. Not enough to cary either state, but it also wasn't just Romney -> Johnson voters who made the election closer than it should've been.

2) Hillary could've won North Carolina if she had kept all of Obama's voters from 2008. Her loss in 16 was greater than Trump's loss from Romney and Trump still did better than Obama did in 12.

3) A lot of Trump's gains in the Midwest were marginal, save for Iowa and Ohio were they were legitimate swings. If you were to compare Obama's % with Trump's %, Obama wins Iowa but loses Ohio, and then wins the rest of the Midwest and Florida but loses North Carolina. So yes, there were swapped voters, but it's not like Trump's gains were gigantic. Something to remember for 2012.

4) Trump did worse than Romney did in Minnesota. Maybe its red eventuality isn't as set in stone as we thought.

5) It's shocking how poorly Hillary did % wise compared to Obama in most swing states:

Iowa: 51.99% to 41.74% (-10.25%)
Ohio: 50.67% to 43.56% (-7.11%)
Michigan: 54.21% to 47.27% (-6.94%)
Wisconsin: 52.83% to 46.45% (-6.38%)
Minnesota: 52.7% to 46.44% (-6.26%)
New Hampshire: 52.0% to 46.80% (-5.20%)
Pennsylvania: 51.97% to 47.46% (-4.51%)
Florida: 50.01% to 47.82% (-2.19%)
North Carolina: 48.35% to 46.17% (-2.18%)

Even though she won Minnesota and New Hampshire, the drop offs from 2012 are stunning.
 

pigeon

Banned
Also I agree 100% with whoever said AM Joy sucked on PSA.

No ideas, no critique of 2016, no new messaging - the way for Dems to win in 2018 and 2020 is just to run it back one more time, sans baggage. Okay.

Hot take, this would have at least a 70% chance of working.
 

Chumley

Banned
Man why do I keep listening to Chapo. On the latest one they all make fun of Joy Reid and insult her like a bunch of middle schoolers, god this podcast is absolute trash.
 

jtb

Banned
Hot take, this would have at least a 70% chance of working.

I don't buy it. In a non-gerrymandered house and a Senate map that was maxed out, Dems could do it by muscle memory.

But in these times and this map, I don't think we can afford to sleepwalk through this. Certainly not when the stakes are this high. There's no margin for error for [serious pundit voice]the survival of The Republic[/serious pundit voice]
 
Man why do I keep listening to Chapo. On the latest one they all make fun of Joy Reid and insult her like a bunch of middle schoolers, god this podcast is absolute trash.

The only thing they've ever done that I've enjoyed was their partial dramatic reading of Ben Shapiro's shit-tier novel.
 
Also I agree 100% with whoever said AM Joy sucked on PSA.

No ideas, no critique of 2016, no new messaging - the way for Dems to win in 2018 and 2020 is just to run it back one more time, sans baggage. Okay.

Hot take, this would have at least a 70% chance of working.

In 2018, yeah. Probably 2020 too. Trump is just that wildly unpopular. Hell, it would've worked in 2016. Those fuckin' margins...

After that, we're gonna need to get our house in order.
 
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