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PoliGAF 2017 |OT5| The Man In the High Chair

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Obama misplayed Russia hard, as evidenced by their continued aggression towards their neighbors and their ridiculously successful interference campaign of our own presidential election. The problem going forward is that Trump is simply not fit to deal with Russia in a way that furthers the US' own interests. He is a simpering tool of Putin. Any policy towards Russia is going to be disjointed and messy. Sanctions on one hand from congress and what exactly from the executive branch? It's uncoordinated. Our policy towards Russia is likely to get worse and worse.

Pres. Obama played himself, but he signed off on a follow-up cyber operation involving digital implants. In my eyes, Pres. Obama on balance did a decent job handling the Russia situation. Trump doesn't have to do anything other than allow the operation to continue.
 
I don't trust Congress and I definitely don't trust our military.

You all accuse me of slinging Russian talking points, but the above are GOP talking points from the past 2 years. McCain was banging the drum of arming the Ukraine years ago.

because they knew russia was planing on becoming aggressive. IF Ukraine was armed slightly better it would deter russia from invading....


I mean, thats basic sense.

And not trusting our generals, our IC's? So, who then do you trust in the US? No one?
 

kirblar

Member
I don't trust Congress and I definitely don't trust our military.

You all accuse me of slinging Russian talking points, but the above are GOP talking points from the past 2 years. McCain was banging the drum of arming the Ukraine years ago.
And if this view is prior to the Crimean invasion, he's been vindicated! If not, it's still a completely reasonable response!

In unreleated news, there's a shocking amount of propaganda popping up for the google search of "McCain Ukraine Weapons" from such wonderful sources as Sputnik News and YourNewsWire.com.
 

PBY

Banned
And if this view is prior to the Crimean invasion, he's been vindicated! If not, it's still a completely reasonable response!

In unreleated news, there's a shocking amount of propaganda popping up for the google search of "McCain Ukraine Weapons" from such wonderful sources as Sputnik News and YourNewsWire.com.

Dude, I don't read Russian propaganda. Stop with this bullshit, its such a lowest-hanging fruit argument that doesn't address the issues. Its a stupid smear.

I could just call you a right wing hawk after every single one of your posts, but where would that get us?
 

Armaros

Member
And if this view is prior to the Crimean invasion, he's been vindicated! If not, it's still a completely reasonable response!

In unreleated news, there's a shocking amount of propaganda popping up for the google search of "McCain Ukraine Weapons" from such wonderful sources as Sputnik News and YourNewsWire.com.

It's almost like out stance with Russia has changed since the election interference, hacking, invasion and etc!

Shcoking
 

kirblar

Member
Dude, I don't read Russian propaganda. Stop with this bullshit, its such a lowest-hanging fruit argument that doesn't address the issues. Its a stupid smear.

I could just call you a right wing hawk after every single one of your posts, but where would that get us?
Then where are you getting the Nazis in Ukraine talking point from? https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/ukraines-phantom-neo-nazi-menace/359650/ edit: direct from the (google cached) propaganda source: https://webcache.googleusercontent....ts-kiev-neo-nazis/+&cd=17&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

This isn't a claim that you're going to accidentally run across in normal spheres of the internet.
 

barber

Member
Well yeah, they are sucking the teat of Russian Gas.
yeah sadly Europe doesn't have the natural resources for that, plus all the instability in the syrian region makes it so that it would be hard to create the infrastructure there to diversify more.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
yeah sadly Europe doesn't have the natural resources for that, plus all the instability in the syrian region makes it so that it would be hard to create the infrastructure there to diversify more.

They are in a tough situation.
They need to do more to remove that vulnerability.

But PBY using them as a litmus test for action on Russia is hilarious given the situation.
 

PBY

Banned
Then where are you getting the Nazis in Ukraine talking point from? https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/ukraines-phantom-neo-nazi-menace/359650/

This isn't a claim that you're going to accidentally run across in normal spheres of the internet.
ITS A FUCKING FACT.

I mean, our fucking congress adopted legislation based on it.

You're deflecting, without addressing that it is an ugly truth. Read about the Azov Batallion, here from a very balanced WP piece: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ernment-to-a-showdown/?utm_term=.cc3f72675b17
 

dramatis

Member
I thought Flynn's less-than-a-month employment was going to be the shortest length of employment in this White House. Is there going to be somebody that can top the Mooch's record?
 

PBY

Banned
Keep immolating yourself in an embarrassing meltdown, I live off cringe.

You're trying to discredit something as propaganda... which is a really weird way to address something instead of specifically calling out the untruths.

Its an ugly fact, but its a truth. Not sure what else there is to say.
 

kirblar

Member
ITS A FUCKING FACT.

I mean, our fucking congress adopted legislation based on it.

You're deflecting, without addressing that it is an ugly truth. Read about the Azov Batallion, here from a very balanced WP piece: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ernment-to-a-showdown/?utm_term=.cc3f72675b17
Learn where every story with the search "ukraine azov us congress" is coming from. https://www.google.com/search?biw=1...-ab..0.8.472...0j0i20k1j0i22i30k1.g6Yb8JIU_cM (Hint, they're propaganda outlets.)

The first non-Wiki, non-Propaganda site is about a 2016 internal debate between Congress and the Pentagon on this - https://www.thenation.com/article/c...ng-neo-nazis-from-its-year-end-spending-bill/

The second is a Congressional Black Caucus site (which...jesus really needs some work) about Conyers' amendment being passed in 2017 https://congressionalblackcaucus.co...s-wont-fund-ukraines-neo-nazi-azov-battalion/

No one else is talking about this because this is a small, tiny group that's a miniscule part of the bigger picture, but which Russia has made a point to talk about at every available opportunity because they're using every available pretext to present themselves (an invading country against a non-aggressive nation) as heroes.
 

AndyD

aka andydumi
Guys, don't let the discussion be sidelined by obvious trolling. It distracts from the actual point of the thread. One of the obvious tactics is to distract with inflammatory exaggerated statements that derails the conversation and buries the real thread discussion in pages and pages of junk.
 
Wow, I had no idea the term "carpetbagger" was a Reconstruction-era term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpetbagger

In the history of the United States, a carpetbagger was a Northerner who moved to the South after the American Civil War during the Reconstruction era (1863–1877). Many white Southerners denounced them, fearing they would loot and plunder the defeated South and be politically allied with the Radical Republicans.[1] Sixty men from the North, including educated free blacks and slaves who had escaped to the North and returned South after the war, were elected as Republicans to Congress. The majority of Republican governors in the South during Reconstruction were from the North. Historian Eric Foner argues:
... most carpetbaggers probably combine the desire for personal gain with a commitment to taking part in an effort "to substitute the civilization of freedom for that of slavery". ... Carpetbaggers generally supported measures aimed at democratizing and modernizing the South – civil rights legislation, aid to economic development, the establishment of public school systems.[2]
"Carpetbagger" was used by Southerners as a pejorative term, referring to the carpet bags (a form of cheap luggage made from carpet fabric) which many of these newcomers carried. The term came to be associated with opportunism and exploitation by outsiders. In the early 21st century in the U.S., the term is used to refer to a parachute candidate, that is, an outsider who runs for public office in an area where they do not have deep community ties, or have lived only for a short time.
 

PBY

Banned
Learn where every story with the search "ukraine azov us congress" is coming from. https://www.google.com/search?biw=1...-ab..0.8.472...0j0i20k1j0i22i30k1.g6Yb8JIU_cM (Hint, they're propaganda outlets.)

The first non-Wiki, non-Propaganda site is about a 2016 internal debate between Congress and the Pentagon on this - https://www.thenation.com/article/c...ng-neo-nazis-from-its-year-end-spending-bill/

The second is a Congressional Black Caucus site (which...jesus really needs some work) about Conyers' amendment being passed in 2017 https://congressionalblackcaucus.co...s-wont-fund-ukraines-neo-nazi-azov-battalion/

No one else is talking about this because this is a small, tiny group that's a miniscule part of the bigger picture, but which Russia has made a point to talk about at every available opportunity because they're using every available pretext to present themselves (an invading country against a non-aggressive nation) as heroes.

I don't disagree that the group has been the source of Russian propaganda. But we're having a discussion about sending weapons to the Ukraine military - I can also point out that I don't love that a Nazi faction will also be receiving these weapons. Its not the crux of my argument, its not the center of my position, but pointing it out doesn't make me a Russian stooge.

If our Congress found merit in addressing this issue, why can't I?


Just to close this discussion, calling something out as propaganda to demean the point is a weak rhetorical device. Address the issue (or otherwise provide evidence that the underlying claim is false). If you think that 3000 Nazis within the much bigger Ukrainian army don't matter on balance, given the net positives of defending the Ukraine, just say so. Demeaning the sources of information for things that are demonstrably true (NATO has written about this group, as noted above our Congress has addressed this issue, etc.) just spins our wheels in circles.
 
I recall learning about the origin of carpetbagger when studying history in school. I find it kind of odd looking back that we were taught a very Neo-Confederate view of Reconstruction given that I was in a Northern state.
 

Holmes

Member
OH-Gov is a tough nut to crack for Democrats, always has been. I think there's a chance though, and it should he contested.

That poll strikes me as one that leaked just to keep Cordray away though.
 

Slizeezyc

Member
Scott will probably have a solid shot. He's a 2 term governor, the FL economy is pretty strong from what I remember, and not enough people care about the environment/climate change. Or rampant corruption in healthcare.

He's still rather unpopular, and while not too many people know Nelson in relation to how long he's been in the Senate, still probably a tough battle for Scott.
 
Frank Luntz (lol) did a poll of Ohio and the results are......... odd.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BygPDvU_T-LiY3JTN1g1YlJVRGpYQjM2NHJ3V0NVTVFlaWtn/view

Dem Gov Primary:

Sutton: 21%
Cordray: 17%
Whaley: 10%
Pillich: 9%

Gov GE:

DeWine: 55%
Cordray: 31%

Husted: 47%
Cordray: 35%

Senate GE:

Brown: 53%
Mandel: 34%

I... do not believe many of these things.

brown and mandel I beleive.

Mandel is like 34, a tea partier/freedom caucus kid, many repubs dislike him because he has no spine. Portman will maybe do the right thing if people berate him enough, Mandel is just another, cheaper version, of paul ryan.

dems need someone better cordray, dewines been around for a bit in ohios politics, everyone knows his name.

husted is practically a no name, I dont see him beating anyone if they choose him.

betty sutton is known a little in north east ohio but has no presence in the rest of the state.

Dems need better candidates, Frank jackson, if he ran in in 2022 could be a presence if he started campaigning and getting more attention. but hes running for re election as Cleveland's mayor, I dont think he will win again.

I actually think he's doing a decent job as you dont really hear anything bad. but you also dont really hear anything, except recently when he came out and said cleveland would honor the paris agreement.
 

chadskin

Member
France and Germany are parties to the Minsk process. I think it'd be detrimental to that process if they were to openly support the US in sending defensive weapons to Ukraine.

The US isn't a party to Minsk, has been training Ukrainian soldiers for the past two years already and has also sent non-lethal aid like body armor and night-vision goggles to Ukraine.

Brookings, by no means a partisan, war-drumming think tank, has made the argument for defensive weapons in 2014: https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/time-to-give-ukraine-defensive-weapons/
The Ukrainian government has for some time sought lethal military assistance, such as anti-armor weapons, as well as secure communications equipment and reconnaissance drones. When he hosts Poroshenko in the Oval Office, Obama should agree to provide defensive arms on an expedited basis. Such assistance would enhance Kiev's ability to deter further Russian aggression, aggression that would threaten, perhaps fatally, the possibility of a negotiated settlement.

A better-armed Ukrainian military would give Putin pause, because it could impose greater costs on the Russian army if the Russians break the ceasefire and renew the fighting. Reports detail the extraordinary lengths, such as nighttime burials, to which the Kremlin has gone to hide from its public the fact that Russian soldiers have fought and died in Ukraine. The more costly the Ukrainians can make any fighting for the Russians, the less Moscow's interest in resuming the conflict.

Some may argue that providing lethal military assistance would provoke Putin to escalate. But he has already escalated the situation — from instigating separatist actions to providing heavy weapons to sending in the Russian army. This suggests the opposite may well prove true: Arming Ukraine will raise the costs of escalation to Russia and thus make it less likely.

That remains true to this day.
 

Oriel

Member
I'll refer you to my previous post above and leave it there. But this isn't fair.

If you're going to be pushing a pro-Moscow agenda expect to be called out on it. This whole "Nazi's in Kiev" bullshit was discredited years ago.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Wow, I had no idea the term "carpetbagger" was a Reconstruction-era term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpetbagger
Your history teachers failed you.

I recall learning about the origin of carpetbagger when studying history in school. I find it kind of odd looking back that we were taught a very Neo-Confederate view of Reconstruction given that I was in a Northern state.
That seems like it would depend on whether your teachers endorsed the idea that all of those people were truly cynical opportunists, or if it was just a matter of acknowledging the South's continued resistance to anything that even smelled of the North.
 

pigeon

Banned
I recall learning about the origin of carpetbagger when studying history in school. I find it kind of odd looking back that we were taught a very Neo-Confederate view of Reconstruction given that I was in a Northern state.

That's why we say the South won the peace. The Lost Cause is actually the dominant narrative of the Civil War as taught in American high schools. Most people are taught propaganda. It's a testament to their innate moral character that most of them still come out saying the war was obviously about slavery.
 

Barzul

Member
@mj_lee

MJ Lee Retweeted MJ Lee
And Thune: "Until someone shows us how to get that elusive 50th vote, I think it's over."


If Thune is saying this then Healthcare is done, no matter how much Trump tweets about it.
 

PBY

Banned
If you're going to be pushing a pro-Moscow agenda expect to be called out on it. This whole "Nazi's in Kiev" bullshit was discredited years ago.

See - this is where we diverge. Its not bullshit. There is a sect of the Ukraine army that are Nazis. Its a fact. You can disagree as to their significance or relative importance in this discussion - but its a reality.

Anyways - this is not going to go anywhere but in circles.
 
In other news, I forgot how lit the Rogan/Schiff House race was in 2000.

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/nov/08/news/mn-48886

State Sen. Adam Schiff claimed victory today in his bid to unseat Rep. James E. Rogan--a contest supercharged by a national audience and record spending.

After an early lead by the incumbent, Schiff (D-Burbank) surged ahead as midnight approached and declared the hotly contested seat his just before 1 a.m.


"We won a great victory tonight," Schiff told his cheering supporters at the Pasadena Hilton. "We won a great victory, not only for the district . . . but because the nation was watching, for the nation. We took on the best-funded campaign in the country and we beat it."

Rogan (R-Glendale) had left his campaign party earlier in the evening, after telling his supporters at the Glendale Hilton that "this is a tough race. . . . It's not only the most expensive House race, it is the toughest House race."

The two sides did not deny the absurdity of attracting so much money--particularly in a district where changing demographics had all but foreordained a shift to the Democratic camp after years as a Republican bastion. Both sides predicted that even if Schiff failed this year, redistricting would all but guarantee a Democratic victory in 2002.

The result: more than 140 ads a day on the air for the two candidates . . . on Armenian cable television alone. The California Republican Party broadcast television ads throughout most of Southern California, just to hit the small islands where Rogan and another incumbent were at war.

Mail carriers reported working as much as three hours overtime a day to tote the extra campaign mail. There were gems such as the pamphlet from the California Republican Party, saying Schiff had voted to make it easier for prison inmates to get "Satanic bibles."

"A new low," Schiff declared. By election day, the challenger was nearly apologetic about the volume of his own mail. "The last campaign brochure," his final mailer read. "I promise."

"It's just too much," said 80-year-old Elizabeth Grant of Pasadena. "It's just repetition, over and over and over again. They should just calm down a bit."

But though many residents of the district were heartily sick of it all, in living rooms around America, the Rogan-Schiff contest still grabbed attention.

Riveted to the Rogan results in faraway Little Rock was Asa Hutchison (R-Ark.), a Rogan friend and fellow House impeachment prosecutor.

Watching from a hotel in Toronto was actor and liberal activist Danny DeVito, searching for locations for a movie but also attuned to a race he deemed "really big stuff for all of us."
 

pigeon

Banned
See - this is where we diverge. Its not bullshit. There is a sect of the Ukraine army that are Nazis. Its a fact. You can disagree as to their significance or relative importance in this discussion - but its a reality.

They are irrelevant to the discussion.

Why do you keep talking about them?
 
Civil war mostly avoided Lost Cause garbage at my high school (US history teacher being a lesbian probably helped) but I remember being very surprised when my eighth grade teacher going neo confederate on us. My dad can be pretty racist and never said any of that shit!
 

PBY

Banned
They are irrelevant to the discussion.

Why do you keep talking about them?

I constantly said they are neither the focus nor the crux of my argument. People in this thread have pressed me to show evidence that it exists, and I have.

I've left it at that.
 
That's why we say the South won the peace. The Lost Cause is actually the dominant narrative of the Civil War as taught in American high schools. Most people are taught propaganda. It's a testament to their innate moral character that most of them still come out saying the war was obviously about slavery.

It's true that Reonstruction is often not taught correctly, but "The Lost Cause is actually the dominant narrative of the Civil War as taught in American high schools" seems like a claim that requires some citation. I lived in a very white, very conservative area in Illinois and definitely learned that the Civil War was about slavery.

I would actually say the opposite is true - while schools are not free of Confederate myths, their overall direction is correct, and it's a sign of Americans' moral degeneracy with respect to race that so many gravitate toward the "Lost Cause" narrative when their parents, or friends, or whoever exposes them to it and they choose to internalize it.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
France and Germany are parties to the Minsk process. I think it'd be detrimental to that process if they were to openly support the US in sending defensive weapons to Ukraine.

The US isn't a party to Minsk, has been training Ukrainian soldiers for the past two years already and has also sent non-lethal aid like body armor and night-vision goggles to Ukraine.

Hmm, that's another factor I did not consider.
That combined with reliance on Russian energy quite explains the situation.

Wiki Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_II
 
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