Support NeoGAF

[Stumpokapow]

Fuck Chelsea Manning. She didn't deserve the brutal treatment she received, but she also caused a fuck ton of damage working with Wikileaks

Efforts to quantify this damage have ended up somewhere around 0, but I'm sure if we just had the right evidence there'd be a trail of thousands of dead servicemembers somewhere.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Efforts to quantify this damage have ended up somewhere around 0, but I'm sure if we just had the right evidence there'd be a trail of thousands of dead servicemembers somewhere.

Yeah.

In Benghazi.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

Many of those leaks were significant and noteworthy.

 

[Plinko]

That's not how it works. There's no guarantee that the candidate the internal Democratic selectorate prefers is the same as the candidate the wider electorate would prefer.

Actually, it IS how it works unless you rig the primaries, which would be beyond stupid.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

Let Booker, Harris, Gillibrand, Fraken, etc. all run and the cream rise to the top.

I wouldnt mind this at all if they agreed not to attack each other, i dont want repeat of the last primary.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

Actually, it IS how it works unless you rig the primaries, which would be beyond stupid.

Not in a closed primary system. Also, normal people don't vote in primaries.

 

[B-Dubs]

I wouldnt mind this at all if they agreed not to attack each other, i dont want repeat of the last primary.

Everyone attacking each other is fine, just cut it out once it's clear they're going to win and you can't.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Actually, it IS how it works unless you rig the primaries, which would be beyond stupid.

...what? Are you actually arguing that the Democratic primaries select the candidate with the best possible chance of winning the presidential election every single time?

I mean, I want my primaries as open as possible. But that's because I like internal party democracy, not because I think it wins you elections later on.

 

[Aaron Strife]

Not that I think this will become national headline news, but you realize Cohn is "the media"

The media at large I should say.

Democrats fail to win the House with a 10-point margin

"Clearly Democrats just failed to appeal to the middle of the road swing voters who support Trump with his 30% approval rating"

 

[AndyD]

What do you guys think are killing his numbers? My best theory is it's the healthcare debacle and he's getting reamed by supporters pissed it failed and supporters pissed it almost passed.

Honestly, I don't think it's the outcome of the healthcare vote but the process. Many who were on his side expected and hoped he would straighten up by now, appoint solid people, take their advice and in short "become presidential". Instead everything is a trainwreck, he golfs weekly and brags about escapades to kids and is clearly largely illiterate and losing his metal faculties.

I think that hope has backfired on many who hoped he was just a locker room braggart, the 80s wall street Michael Douglas type, who was secretly smart and a had serious business acumen but partied like crazy. It's becoming clear he was just a rich white bully all along with no real intellect.

 

[whyamihere]

Yeah.

In Benghazi.

 

[Randolph Freelander]

The R approval of 76 in the Q poll is my takeaway. In the June 29 poll, it was 84. That's the number to keep watching, because it's the number that will determine whether Congressional Republicans ever give a damn about what Mueller finds.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

That's not how it works. There's no guarantee that the candidate the internal Democratic selectorate prefers is the same as the candidate the wider electorate would prefer.

This is a pointless statement. Yes, primaries (while being the most democratic way of selecting a candidate) can lead to losing elections if the primary voters don't match the wider voters. News at 11.

It's still better to field several candidates I think.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

The recent Harris stuff seems like right-wing media's attempt to start discrediting her now because they're scared of her the most.

I still don't think democrats should unite behind anyone at this point. Encourage as many as possible to run, let the primary run its course, and then go from there. Let the best candidate emerge, regardless of age, gender, race, etc.

It's silly and boring beyond idle speculation at this point. We can't even confidently say who the Republican candidate will be.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

The R approval of 76 in the Q poll is my takeaway. In the June 29 poll, it was 84. That's the number to keep watching, because it's the number that will determine whether Congressional Republicans ever give a damn about what Mueller finds.

Yeah, I've seen articles that pointed to sub-80 in your own party is a precursor to rats fleeing a sinking ship. Keep tanking that number.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

This is a pointless statement. Yes, primaries (while being the most democratic way of selecting a candidate) can lead to losing elections if the primary voters don't match the wider voters. News at 11.

It's still better to field several candidates I think.

It's not a pointless statement. If the primary automatically selected the best candidate, then we could just sit around and do nothing. If the primary doesn't necessarily select the best candidate, then we have to work very hard to make sure that it does, by persuading people of the virtues of that candidate (or the failings of the others). "Let the cream rise to the top" is fundamentally too passive. You want the cream, you got to make it!

I'm all for fielding tonnes of candidates. I'm also for criticizing the shit ones and pointing that out!

 

[ivajz]

Stephen Miller is at the podium.

 

[Holmes]

Breaking on CNN: residents of a county in Nebraska that went >80% for Trump sticking with him.

 

[tedrotheredro]

Stephen Miller is at the podium.

I don't think anyone creeps me out in this administration as much as this guy. Even though he's jewish, he still looks and sounds like he would have fit right in with the SS.

 

[Abinash117]

Since the briefing is talking about immigration.

http://thehill.com/latino/344980-graham-opposes-measure-to-cut-legal-immigration

Reducing the number of low-skilled immigrants allowed in the country would diminish the workforce available for industries that depend on those immigrants, Graham warned.

 

[whyamihere]

It's not a pointless statement. If the primary automatically selected the best candidate, then we could just sit around and do nothing. If the primary doesn't necessarily select the best candidate, then we have to work very hard to make sure that it does, by persuading people of the virtues of that candidate (or the failings of the others). "Let the cream rise to the top" is fundamentally too passive. You want the cream, you got to make it!

I'm all for fielding tonnes of candidates. I'm also for criticizing the shit ones and pointing that out!

This is correct.

 

[Officerrob]

No use even discussing this immigration plan, it's DOA

 

[AntraxSuicide]

It's not a pointless statement. If the primary automatically selected the best candidate, then we could just sit around and do nothing. If the primary doesn't necessarily select the best candidate, then we have to work very hard to make sure that it does, by persuading people of the virtues of that candidate (or the failings of the others). "Let the cream rise to the top" is fundamentally too passive. You want the cream, you got to make it!

I'm all for fielding tonnes of candidates. I'm also for criticizing the shit ones and pointing that out!

Do you really believe that poster meant that no campaigning would occur?

 

[kirblar]

Everyone attacking each other is fine, just cut it out once it's clear they're going to win and you can't.

This. Clinton/Obama was a bloody bareknuckle fight but once she was defeated she accepted it.

If someone faces a candidate like Sanders again (this seems unlikely), there are a lot of lessons in what not to do from 2016. Keeping the kids gloves on and assuming norms will be maintained will bite you in the ass.

No use even discussing this immigration plan, it's DOA

Hasn't like, every R-proposed immigration plan just died for a long time because of their base's demands and donor demands being so far apart?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

This is correct.

Don't be stupid! Can't you see that-- wait? ...oh.

Thanks!

 

[Blader]

It's not a pointless statement. If the primary automatically selected the best candidate, then we could just sit around and do nothing. If the primary doesn't necessarily select the best candidate, then we have to work very hard to make sure that it does, by persuading people of the virtues of that candidate (or the failings of the others). "Let the cream rise to the top" is fundamentally too passive. You want the cream, you got to make it!

I'm all for fielding tonnes of candidates. I'm also for criticizing the shit ones and pointing that out!

But this is all part of the primary process already! It's not as if the people who support, campaign, or vote for candidates in the primary do so while thinking that their candidate isn't one who can reach the wider electorate in the GE. That's why campaigns and supporters exist in the first place: to make that cream rise to the top.

I'd also like to motion eliminating the word cream from this conversation any further

 

[Officerrob]

Wow, this is a real bad look from Miller

 

[sangreal]

Can they shuffle around the white house jobs and get a new AG without senate approval?

No, when Obama did it with Panetta they had a new confirmation

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Do you really believe that poster meant that no campaigning would occur?

No, of course not. I do think that it might mean people don't subject candidates to proper scrutiny until too late in the primary process, and consequently allow terrible candidates to make it too far for too long.

 

[johnsmith]

Wow, this is a real bad look from Miller

Miller's never had any other kind of look

 

[Deleted member 231381]

This. Clinton/Obama was a bloody bareknuckle fight but once she was defeated she accepted it.

lolwut

She stayed in the race for 11 days after it became mathematically impossible to win, and when asked about it by a newspaper...

Hillary Clinton cited the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy during the 1968 presidential campaign to explain why she was remaining in the race despite long odds.

”We all remember Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in June in California," Clinton told the editorial board of a South Dakota newspaper. " I don't understand it," Clinton added, alluding to the calls for her to quit.

Thing is kirblar, I know you know this because it's been discussed in this thread before. Not a good look.

 

[kirblar]

Kerry winning the primaries in '04 was confusing/surprising for me because at the time he was the candidate I most liked personally, but also the candidate I thought had the worst chance of actually winning.

lolwut

She stayed in the race for 11 days after it became mathematically impossible to win, and when asked about it by a newspaper...

Bernie stayed in far longer.

As I said, that was a bloody fistfight of a race.

 

[VendettaRed07]

It's not a pointless statement. If the primary automatically selected the best candidate, then we could just sit around and do nothing. If the primary doesn't necessarily select the best candidate, then we have to work very hard to make sure that it does, by persuading people of the virtues of that candidate (or the failings of the others). "Let the cream rise to the top" is fundamentally too passive. You want the cream, you got to make it!

I'm all for fielding tonnes of candidates. I'm also for criticizing the shit ones and pointing that out!

Sure but at the same time most candidates haven't said anything and don't have a platform so it's hard to praise and/or criticize much of anyone for anything at this point I suppose.

 

[RumbleHumble]

Stephen Miller is at the podium.

They picked wisely from their Charisma pool it seems!

 

[Ernest]

So much WINNING!

President Donald Trump plunges to a new low as American voters disapprove 61 - 33 percent of the job he is doing, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today. White men are divided 47 - 48 percent and Republicans approve 76 - 17 percent. White voters with no college degree, a key part of the president's base, disapprove 50 - 43 percent.

Today's approval rating is down from a 55 - 40 percent disapproval in a June 29 survey by the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University. This is President Trump's lowest approval and highest disapproval number since he was inaugurated.

American voters say 54 - 26 percent that they are embarrassed rather than proud to have Trump as president. Voters say 57 - 40 percent he is abusing the powers of his office and say 60 - 36 percent that he believes he is above the law.

President Trump is not levelheaded, say 71 - 26 percent of voters, his worst score on that character trait. Voter opinions of most other Trump qualities drop to new lows:

62 - 34 percent that he is not honest;
63 - 34 percent that he does not have good leadership skills;
59 - 39 percent that he does not care about average Americans;
58 - 39 percent that he is a strong person;
55 - 42 percent that he is intelligent;
63 - 34 percent that he does not share their values.

"It's hard to pick what is the most alarming number in the troubling trail of new lows for President Donald Trump," said Tim Malloy, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Poll.

"Profound embarrassment over his performance in office and deepening concern over his level-headedness have to raise the biggest red flags.

"The daily drip drip of missteps and firings and discord are generating a tidal wave of bad polling numbers.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Bernie stayed in far longer.

As I said, that was a bloody fistfight of a race.

Don't shift the goalposts. You said, and this is a direct quote, "once she was defeated she accepted it". This is factually not true. Just admit that you were wrong.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Really I think it was Kerry's inability to fit a baseball cap ontop of his hairmet and saying his favorite player was "manny Ortiz" that did him in more than anything else

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Sure but at the same time most candidates haven't said anything and don't have a platform so it's hard to praise and/or criticize much of anyone for anything at this point I suppose.

Oh, for sure. I think it's just important to bear in mind in 2019, bearing in mind the lessons of 2015.

 

[Plinko]

...what? Are you actually arguing that the Democratic primaries select the candidate with the best possible chance of winning the presidential election every single time?

I mean, I want my primaries as open as possible. But that's because I like internal party democracy, not because I think it wins you elections later on.

No, I'm actually arguing that they won't always do that but there really isn't a better way to pick the candidate.

My worry this time around is that the Bernie wing will screw it up for everyone.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

No, I'm actually arguing that they won't always do that but there really isn't a better way to pick the candidate.

I mean, there are a lot of better ways - the primaries are run pretty badly - but assuming you mean there's no better way that isn't some form of internal party election, then sure.

 

[jtb]

I mean, there are a lot of better ways - the primaries are run pretty badly - but assuming you mean there's no better way that isn't some form of internal party election, then sure.

What are the better ways?

 

[VendettaRed07]

Bernie stayed in far longer

As I said, that was a bloody fistfight of a race.

He stayed in longer because Hillary wasn't budging on some platform ideas that he felt she needed to adopt if she was going to get his fans to support her. She picked a VP none of his base was interested in and needed to come away with something so he could get his voters to flip for her

Also I can't even imagine how people would have reacted had Bernie said "she may be killed so I have to be the back up QB for now".

 

[Plinko]

Nate Silver‏Verified account @NateSilver538 11m11 minutes ago

Trump approval by month (per 538 average):
January—44.8
February—44.0
March—43.1
April—41.3
May—40.4
June—38.8
July—38.9
August—37.4

Impressive 7-point drop in 8 months.

I mean, there are a lot of better ways - the primaries are run pretty badly - but assuming you mean there's no better way that isn't some form of internal party election, then sure.

Yes, that's what I mean.

 

[Officerrob]

So Miller is citing polls that do not exist after the White House was choosing to ignore actual polling of GOP health plans that had favorability in the teens...

 

[Plinko]

Joy Reid‏Verified account @JoyAnnReid

Stephen Miller cited the Center for Immigration Studies. Know who and what they are:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Center_for_Immigration_Studies

Wow.

 

[tedrotheredro]

Lotta wishful thinking by Miller. Good luck with your final solution, bruh.

I wish the reporters would just treat it like the joke it is and ask if this is Trump's distraction from his terrible approval ratings.

Edit: OMG, he's bashing the Statue of Liberty now

 

[Deleted member 231381]

What are the better ways?

Direct vote, not voting for delegates. Use ranked-choice voting. Dramatically telescope the voting process to reduce the costs and therefore the importance of the invisible primary. Abolish superdelegates. Frontload the states that were most marginal in the previous presidential election. Allow people to change party registration on the door, or if not held on the same day as the Repulican primaries, at least until the day before the Republican primaries are held.

 

[kirblar]

Don't shift the goalposts. You said, and this is a direct quote, "once she was defeated, she accepted it". This is factually not true. Just admit that you were wrong.

I don't have an issue with giving campaigns 1-2 weeks to get out after a long heads up race. It's obviously not going to happen immediately (politicians have egos too!) and it's about in line with what you'd expect.

Clinton took 11 days to suspend her active campaign after she was math came in. She endorsed him after 18.

Sanders took 43 days to suspend his campaign after he got math'd out. He endorsed her after 69.

 

[jtb]

Direct vote, not voting for delegates. Use ranked-choice voting. Dramatically telescope the voting process to reduce the costs and therefore the importance of the invisible primary. Abolish superdelegates. Frontload the states that were most marginal in the previous presidential election.

Ranked voting is a really good idea for the primary process.

 

[Abinash117]

One thing I like to know with this immigration discussion that the Trump administration seems to want to have is how will it effect the Hispanic and Asian Republican voter population. Trump specifically targeted illegal immigration and tried to make a distinction between the good and bad ones. There was a fine line that Hispanic Republican voters have. Some of them don't like illegal immigration believing that those that tried to "cheat" shouldn't be allowed in and were applauding Trump's hard-line rhetoric against illegal immigration. However, I think many do not think Republicans should go after legal immigrants .

Now he wants to go after legal immigration how would these groups react ?