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[Thunder Monkey]

I think it should be illegal to construct new housing or commercial development without solar roofing.

I agree.

But what will the Electric Company do without those profits?!

 

[Jak140]

:lol I actually was thinking of that episode when I was writing that post.

 

[SouthernDragon]

I'm interested to know what everyone, from all circles thought of the O'Reilly circle. To me, it demonstrates that Obama is willing to think before answering rather than jump into superfluous "America! Fuck yeah!" rhetoric. But the important people are the super conservatives and what they think of the interview.

Anyone have any info? I'm an independent, so I can't speak for conservatives.

I thought they were excellent on the whole. Exposed me to the other way of thinking, gave Obama a chance to show good, concise answers, gave him a completely new audience, and O'Reilly controlled himself really, really well.

 

[Huzah]

A properly designed health system could save 4-6% in GDP. We're not talking about peanuts.

Properly price coal externalities and that could change though. Of course same problem with Nuclear exists, I don't even know how you could price the externalities there since so clearly nobody is willing to live with them

The biggest question is probably time horizon. But honestly the best short term solutions are probably just better grid + nanny state conservation bs. I also feel like I've read a ton of articles lately about how close solar-thermal is for prime time.

I agree a properly designed health system would be better than what we have now and will safe money in the long run (maybe not better care though), but it's not like Obama's healthcare plan is a properly designed health system.

We can choose to isolate radioactive waste to places where it doesn't affect everyone else, we can't choose to not live on this planet due to the effects of global warming (which is what would happen if we decide to burn coal to replace oil).

Solar thermal is close to prime time and California is taking the lead in that. But again, solar thermal does not provide base load power, nuclear is the only way in the post fossil fuel world.

 

[Crayon Shinchan]

if 527s do do anything for Obama, it needs to be drilling home about monetary relief that Obama will provide.

Drill the point home; Obama plans to cut taxes for 95% of Americans. He plans to provide further monetary relief through subsidised government competing in healthcare (not universal healthcare!), and that he plans on paying for this by closing the loopholes that the rich and corporations use to avoid paying their fair share of taxes.

Then follow up and repeatedly emphasize that he plans on providing incentives for new industry, and penalizing corporations that outsource.

Vote for the American Economy. Vote for Obama.

A good strong narrative educating americans in basic economics would work well...
A strong middle is a strong economy; tax cuts to the rich doesn't trickle down! They don't need to spend as much of their income! There's less of them to spend it, and when they do spend it, they tend to spend it with people that are already rich (i.e. luxury goods and services)... where's the trickle down?

Assault basic republican economic precepts.

There are many things to attack McCains and republicans on... and there's no doubt that it can be done without resorting to baseless accusations or even cheap shots. And it can be done in bite sized messages, repeated ad nauseum. Drill it into them. That's the kind of drilling I can support.

 

[Huzah]

I agree.

But what will the Electric Company do without those profits?!

They'll actually probably like it because they don't have to build more infrastructure to support our growing energy demands. Also, most electric companies are regulated by their state so they don't have much choice anyways.

 

[Byakuya769]

I agree a properly designed health system would be better than what we have now and will safe money in the long run (maybe not better care though), but it's not like Obama's healthcare plan is a properly designed health system.

We can choose to isolate radioactive waste to places where it doesn't affect everyone else, we can't choose to not live on this planet due to the effects of global warming (which is what would happen if we decide to burn coal to replace oil).

Solar thermal is close to prime time and California is taking the lead in that. But again, solar thermal does not provide base load power, nuclear is the only way in the post fossil fuel world.

Anyone who likes clean coal as a better alternative to nuclear energy, I would encourage that you read into mountain top removal. Also find out about some of the locally catastrophic mud slides/floods rural areas have been subjected to because of coal excavation. Nuclear is where it's at!

 

[Jack Scofield]

Just in case some people aren't aware, Obama is on Letterman right now.

 

[Mandark]

Dude I guess our solution is more coal and natural gas? How much would a solar project in Britain for the same magawatts cost? How much does that offshore wind project cost in Britain?

There's IS NO OTHER FEASEABLE AND VIABLE SOURCE OF BASELOAD POWER BESIDES NUCLEAR.

Despite the double barrels of capslock and poor spelling I'm not quite convinced.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

if 527s do do anything for Obama, it needs to be drilling home about monetary relief that Obama will provide.

Drill the point home; Obama plans to cut taxes for 95% of Americans. He plans to provide further monetary relief through subsidised government competing in healthcare (not universal healthcare!), and that he plans on paying for this by closing the loopholes that the rich and corporations use to avoid paying their fair share of taxes.

Then follow up and repeatedly emphasize that he plans on providing incentives for new industry, and penalizing corporations that outsource.

Vote for the American Economy. Vote for Obama.

That's all these guys did for Bush:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_Boat_Veterans_for_Truth

Or these for HRC:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MoveOn.org

 

[Huzah]

Which is a big reason why I'm not crazy about directly subsidizing nuclear. Once you've raised the costs of carbon-based energy you've already given nukes a subsidy; if they still can't compete in that environment why favor it over safer, cleaner, more flexible options?

You can't get baseload power with pure renewables. That's just a fact. Solar only works when there's sun, wind only works when there's wind.

Once America switches to plug in hybrids, we going to need a high amount of baseload power at night to satisfy them, and unless you favor building more coal/ng plants, nuclear is the best way to go to do this.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

They'll actually probably like it because they don't have to build more infrastructure to support our growing energy demands. Also, most electric companies are regulated by their state so they don't have much choice anyways.

One Two Three Four Five Six Seven Eight Nine Ten Eleven Twelve.

12!

 

[Hitokage]

We can choose to isolate radioactive waste to places where it doesn't affect everyone else, we can't choose to not live on this planet due to the effects of global warming (which is what would happen if we decide to burn coal to replace oil).

Mind you, this is a Really Hard Problem(tm). The only place where it'll be absolutely safe for millions of years is off the planet going into deep space, but even then there are huge transportation risks just getting it there.

...unless we had a space elevator.

 

[Huzah]

Mind you, this is a Really Hard Problem(tm). The only place where it'll be absolutely safe for millions of years is off the planet going into deep space, but even then there are huge transportation risks just getting it there.

Going from a fossil fuel economy to a non fossil fuel economy is not gona be cheap or easy.

I guess we can all pray that nuclear fusion works somehow in the next 50 years .

 

[Hitokage]

I guess we can all pray that nuclear fusion works somehow in the next 50 years .

Fusion already works, just not well enough yet to produce power for anything. Surplus production is perpetually forty years away.

 

[SouthernDragon]

i dont understand this push to reduce our carbon emissions to become a leader when China has already taken our place as the biggest polluter, and other countries like India are filling any gap where we make any gains.

The only way to combat climate change is by a global initiative with everyone on board, otherwise, any gains made are lost somewhere else.

The problem with your assumption here is that the entire world is developing at the same rate, or is at the same level.

If we lead the world in terms of alternative energy solutions, we could sell those technologies to developing nations, making a shit load of cash, keeping us perpetually ahead as well sell proven tech while developing/funding cutting edge versions, and helping the environment all at once.

 

[slidewinder]

Fusion already works, just not well enough yet to produce power for anything. Surplus production is perpetually forty years away.

Surplus production is the PROBLEM with fusion

Edit: hopefully clarified my apparently lame joke.

 

[Hitokage]

Surplus production is the problem with fusion

That's what I'm saying.

 

[Mandark]

You can't get baseload power with pure renewables. That's just a fact. Solar only works when there's sun, wind only works when there's wind.

Once America switches to plug in hybrids, we going to need a high amount of baseload power at night to satisfy them, and unless you favor building more coal/ng plants, nuclear is the best way to go to do this.

Great. If that's true then a well-designed carbon auction system (which is what really needs political capital) would force private investment towards nuclear power, since there aren't any other viable options.

Which means we wouldn't have to subsidize them directly. See what I'm getting at?

 

[Crayon Shinchan]

That's all these guys did for Bush:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_Boat_Veterans_for_Truth

Or these for HRC:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MoveOn.org

What do you mean? Swift Boaters disseminated the most lying bullshit campaign of recent political history.

I certainly don't think they went out of their way to tell people about Bush's economic plans or focus on positives of Bush's campaign.

My point is, 527s should be used... but they don't have to be attack dogs. They can refocus on policy and still be maximally effective.

 

[Huzah]

If anyone wants to learn more about nuclear power here's a discussion about it with links to other resources inside the discussion:

http://i-r-squared.blogspot.com/2007/07/whats-wrong-with-nuclear-power.html

 

[SouthernDragon]

Dude you're never going to catch up. :lol

He's on page 85.

He'll see your reponse in a week.

You know, I read faster than you think. Juggling PoliGAF with life is a bit consuming.

I wouldn't have to troll every page if there was some kind of widget that'd compile every link posted in the thread or something. I'm no programmer, though, so I don't know how feasible that is.

 

[laserbeam]

Mind you, this is a Really Hard Problem(tm). The only place where it'll be absolutely safe for millions of years is off the planet going into deep space, but even then there are huge transportation risks just getting it there.

...unless we had a space elevator.

Reprocessing is really the only logical answer. Current method of one use only means we only use about 5% of the total power the fuel rods can actually offer. Reprocessing also eliminates alot of the radioactivity reducing its time needed to be stored from thousands of years to hundreds.

The technology is advancing enough that we can extract the left overs without them being weapon grade. We wont get rid of nuclear waste all togeather but we will greatly reduce the amount and its radioactivity will be reduced as well. In current PUREX practice without transmutation, France reduces its spent volume by a factor of four and that system is mostly outdated now with transmutation.

Reprocessing was never popular due to Uraniums cost. It was cheaper to just buy more uranium and make fresh rods.

 

[slidewinder]

The only logical answer is to let the spent rods sit harmlessly in a pool near where there were expended. Security guards don't cost that much, and the stuff is just not that dangerous.

 

[Trurl]

The only logical answer is to let the spent rods sit harmlessly in a pool near where there were expended. Security guards don't cost that much, and the stuff is just not that dangerous.

How is that better than Yucca mountain?

 

[ryutaro's mama]

What do you mean? Swift Boaters disseminated the most lying bullshit campaign of recent political history.

I certainly don't think they went out of their way to tell people about Bush's economic plans or focus on positives of Bush's campaign.

My point is, 527s should be used... but they don't have to be attack dogs. They can refocus on policy and still be maximally effective.

My point is, sometimes they are attack dogs and since Obama hasn't run an attack dog campaign until now, if the 527s he elists do, it could be a detriment to his campaign.

 

[Huzah]

Great. If that's true then a well-designed carbon auction system (which is what really needs political capital) would force private investment towards nuclear power, since there aren't any other viable options.

Which means we wouldn't have to subsidize them directly. See what I'm getting at?

You're assuming it would be easier to make a perfect cap and trade system that accurately describes the $$$ value of global warming than subsidizing something.

There's still also the problem inherent to such power plants which is high capital costs and long pay off time, something PE are reluctant to deal with.

 

[Gruco]

I agree a properly designed health system would be better than what we have now and will safe money in the long run (maybe not better care though), but it's not like Obama's healthcare plan is a properly designed health system.

It's a step in the right direction, but my comment was more directed to the importance of the healthcare industry as a whole rather than a specific effort to defend Obama's plan. Also, the supposed dichotomy between cost and quality in health care is totally played out, as there are numerous aspects of the system as is which cause higher costs and poorer care to move hand in hand.

We can choose to isolate radioactive waste to places where it doesn't affect everyone else, we can't choose to not live on this planet due to the effects of global warming (which is what would happen if we decide to burn coal to replace oil).

Yeah, I don't even disagree necessarily, but there's still the trick of finding someone who wants it, and talking everyone into letting it pass through their back yard to get it there.

Solar thermal is close to prime time and California is taking the lead in that. But again, solar thermal does not provide base load power, nuclear is the only way in the post fossil fuel world.

Are you trying to eliminate all fossil fuels tomorrow? I mean, I admire the enthusiasm and all, but dang.

 

[SouthernDragon]

We could always just launch the waste into the sun.

 

[Huzah]

Reprocessing is really the only logical answer. Current method of one use only means we only use about 5% of the total power the fuel rods can actually offer. Reprocessing also eliminates alot of the radioactivity reducing its time needed to be stored from thousands of years to hundreds.

The technology is advancing enough that we can extract the left overs without them being weapon grade. We wont get rid of nuclear waste all togeather but we will greatly reduce the amount and its radioactivity will be reduced as well.

Reprocessing was never popular due to Uraniums cost. It was cheaper to just buy more uranium and make fresh rods.

Again this just shows the market failure of nuclear power. Not to mention I don't forsee the government allowing private fast breeder reactors to sell weapons nuclear material on the open market so nuclear power is inherently handy capped by the free market :lol

 

[Gruco]

You're assuming it would be easier to make a perfect cap and trade system that accurately describes the $$$ value of global warming than subsidizing something.

The whole point of permit systems is that you're defining output so that you don't need to measure the dollar value of the externalities.

Also, found a fun article on Scaling Geothermal for Reliable Baseload Power

 

[laserbeam]

Again this just shows the market failure of nuclear power. Not to mention I don't forsee the government allowing private fast breeder reactors to sell weapons nuclear material on the open market so nuclear power is inherently handy capped by the free market :lol

The Government would just need to do its job and make sure the proper process is being done that creates non weapons grade material.

We have created close to 40,000 tons of Nuclear Waste since Carter put the nail in reprocessings coffin. Even using the outdated PUREX method we would only have 10,000 tons of waste and the newest methods suggest they could reduce waste by even a factor of 100.

 

[Huzah]

It's a step in the right direction, but my comment was more directed to the importance of the healthcare industry as a whole rather than a specific effort to defend Obama's plan. Also, the supposed dichotomy between cost and quality in health care is totally played out, as there are numerous aspects of the system as is which cause higher costs and poorer care to move hand in hand.

Yeah, I don't even disagree necessarily, but there's still the trick of finding someone who wants it, and talking everyone into letting it pass through their back yard to get it there.


Are you trying to eliminate all fossil fuels tomorrow? I mean, I admire the enthusiasm and all, but dang.

If we want to replace oil and try to come up with a home grown solution our fossil fuel reserves aren't as great as you might think. Though, Canada helps, but man do you want to trust those dirty Canadians?

 

[AniHawk]

Everyone, let's all hold hands and sing songs from The Prince of Egypt.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Everyone, let's all hold hands and sing songs from The Prince of Egypt.

I'm not missing a Eden Riegel pic opp!

 

[mugwhump]

waitwaitwait I missed something, why is the sky falling?

 

[Gruco]

If we want to replace oil and try to come up with a home grown solution our fossil fuel reserves aren't as great as you might think. Though, Canada helps, but man do you want to trust those dirty Canadians?

Yeah, but sounds like you're wanting all this to happen in the next three days. While I agree that that's a fabulous goal, this is still a one step at a time process.

 

[Cloudy]

Screw the polls. I'll be updating this thread with Obama/McCain betting odds anytime I see a significant change. The day McCain is favored is the day I'll finally give up

I don't gamble but I believe in oddsmakers. I have followed the odds for pretty much every NBA game the last 3 years and these things are frighteningly accurate..

http://www.superbook.com/livesports/indexmember.php?sportsname=exotic

Election:

Barack Obama -160
John McCain +120

Florida
Democrat +165
Republican -225


Colorado
Democrat -200
Republican +150


Nevada
Democrat: -140
Republican: EVEN

Ohio
Democrat: -120
Republican: -120

Virginia
Democrat: -140
Republican: EVEN

I've never seen EVEN for just 1 team in a basketball game. What does that mean?

 

[AniHawk]

I'm not missing a Eden Riegel pic opp!

Many nights we've prayed
With no proof anyone could hear
in our hearts a hopeful song
We barely undesrtood.
Now we are not afraid
Although we know there's much to fear
We were moving mountains long
Before we know we could.

 

[Huzah]

The whole point of permit systems is that you're defining output so that you don't need to measure the dollar value of the externalities.

Also, found a fun article on Scaling Geothermal for Reliable Baseload Power

I don't disagree with the permit system, and I think it's a great idea and the most reasonable way to go about carbon pollution, but remember it can underprice or overprice the true cost of carbon and therefore underprice or overprice the price of wind, solar, and nuclear.

I'll still say there's inherent qualities of nuclear power that makes it a hard problem for the free market to solve so I don't oppose subsidies.

Geothermal is really cool, but it has problems with location, and hot dry back technology is still not there yet.

 

[AniHawk]

Screw the polls. I'll be updating this thread with Obama/McCain betting odds anytime I see a significant change. The day McCain is favored is the day I'll finally give up

I don't gamble but I believe in oddsmakers. I have followed the odds for pretty much every NBA game the last 3 years and these things are frighteningly accurate..

http://www.superbook.com/livesports/indexmember.php?sportsname=exotic




I've never seen EVEN for just 1 team in a basketball game. What does that mean?

Someone translate this back into good ol' fashioned American Math please.

 

[Cloudy]

Someone translate this back into good ol' fashioned American Math please.

http://www.onlinegambling.com/sports/odds-converter-calculators.htm

Enter the number in the "American Odds" field and the amount of your bet and calculate..

 

[Guts Of Thor]

So I was talking to my brother about the polls and he said that the only polls that matter are the ones that are taken in the middle of October. Historically, the polls taken at that time usually gives a good idea of how the election will turn out. Can anyone verify this?

 

[AniHawk]

http://www.onlinegambling.com/sports/odds-converter-calculators.htm

Enter the number in the "American Odds" field and the amount of your bet and calculate..

Wow, I was joking. Didn't know this actually existed.

Pray for Colorado. That's all I have to say. They seem to be pretty far ahead in the betting right now.

 

[Cloudy]

I don't think he wins w/o CO so I will pray lol

 

[Huzah]

Yeah, but sounds like you're wanting all this to happen in the next three days. While I agree that that's a fabulous goal, this is still a one step at a time process.

True, but I think at this point America is ready for a real energy strategy and the envrionment is there for some real sweeping changes. The 70-140 rise in oil has really ingrained the weakness in dependence on oil on I think almost every single American. The thing is once you enact something it's hard to go back, and it's important to get it right the first time or else we'll end up with corn ethanol all over again.

 

[AniHawk]

So I was talking to my brother about the polls and he said that the only polls that matter are the ones that are taken in the middle of October. Historically, the polls taken at that time usually gives a good idea of how the election will turn out. Can anyone verify this?

Kerry/Bush 10-19-04:

http://www.thedemocraticstrategist.org/donkeyrising/2004/10/nytcbs_news_poll_kerry_bush_lo.html

John Kerry and George Bush are tied at 46 percent of nation-wide RV's, according to a New York Times/CBS News Poll, conducted 10/14-17. Bush's approval rating is 44 percent.

Gore/Bush 10-17-00 throught 10-31-00

Thought you might enjoy a little look back on Gallup's polls from 2000 (ALL LV):
Note: Gore went on to win the popular vote.

Oct17 Bush 48 Gore 42
Oct18 Bush 49 Gore 39
Oct19 Bush 50 Gore 40
Oct20 Bush 51 Gore 40

Oct21 Bush 50 Gore 41
Oct22 Bush 46 Gore 44
Oct23 Bush 45 Gore 46
Oct24 Bush 48 Gore 43
Oct25 Bush 49 Gore 42
Oct26 Bush 52 Gore 39
Oct27 Bush 49 Gore 42
Oct28 Bush 49 Gore 42
Oct30 Bush 47 Gore 44
Oct31 Bush 48 Gore 43

Oh, and to point to just how dumb Americans are:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/03/gallup.poll/index.html

On who is more honest and trustworthy, however, Bush trumped Kerry by 46 percent to 41 percent, and when asked who among the two candidates shares their values, voters chose Bush 49 percent to 45 percent for Kerry.

 

[qwertybob]

I think it should be illegal to construct new housing or commercial development without solar roofing.

maybe in the future but not now - http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/worldwide_short.php

 

[Mandark]

Whether or not the permit system is "perfect" is irrelevant.

The point is that a hard cap will limit the amount of energy from fossil fuels. This leaves a gap between supply and demand and presumably renewables won't be able to cover all of that gap.

Which means there will be demand for energy that only nuclear power could satisfy. A big market waiting to be tapped and no substitutable products to compete with.

If nuclear is so screwed up that nobody's willing to invest even under those conditions then fuggedaboutit.

 

[kevm3]

holy shit i heard about that but jesus that's brutal. and fucking true.

I mean this is what Biden should be doing... Basically doing his best to convince the American public of Palin's incompetence... and YES, it IS an issue. She is hiding from the media, has no opinion on Freddie Mac or Fannie Mae, has no opinion on the Iraq War, didn't know what a VP did exactly... and THIS is a woman that may potentially be president? This is a woman that may have to stare Putin down and negotiate with him on matters of national and international security? There's going to be nowhere for her to run and hide. If she can't handle CNN, how is se going to handle Kim Jong Il?