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[mckmas8808]

that's actually his greatest political strength, and if you remember his convention speech, the greatest substance went something like this:

"We may not agree on abortion, but we can definitely agree that unwanted pregnancies should be reduced."

"We may not agree on health care, but we can agree that no child should go without access to everything they need."

"Hunters in rural Minnesota and people that live in urban areas that deal with gang violence may not see eye to eye on gun control, but we can agree that we can we don't need AK-47s and still protect our 2nd amendment rights."

etc.


It's brilliant. It sets a pre-established boundary on a discussion that eleviates fears of the most radical on both sides.

I'm getting to the point where I'm wondering if America really wants a better country or not. I mean people bitch and cry about wanting to talk about the issues, then when a guy comes along to do that people say they don't know what he stands for minutes after he talks about issues for 30 minutes.

I mean is it a race thing. Had Barack Obama been a middle age white guy named Jim Harrison would more lower class white people be following him right now?

 

[LCGeek]

Because we dont' have irrational fears that are propaganded by green peace fools?

You could also say NIMBY which americans are known for. All we need to do to solve this problem is build this facility like hell you will around here.

 

[Haunted]

The piece works pretty well if you change the title to "Obama Can't Win IF he Tries to Run Against Palin, which is what a Majority of NeoGAF Posters Would Have Him Do."

For all the enthusiasm displayed here, it's a good thing that PoliGAF does not run Obama's campaign.

Spoiler

I can neither confirm nor deny speculation that OuterWorldVoice is actually a high ranking Obama advisor.

 

[AndyIsTheMoran]

http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/newenergy

I don't see the word nuclear anywhere.

I even downloaded the pdf, and no mention of new nuclear energy.

Why do you like to lie?

Obama also supports more biofuel mandates, which again demontrates that he doesn't know his energy.

i dont understand this push to reduce our carbon emissions to become a leader when China has already taken our place as the biggest polluter, and other countries like India are filling any gap where we make any gains.

The only way to combat climate change is by a global initiative with everyone on board, otherwise, any gains made are lost somewhere else.

And on the Nuclear front, Obama pretty much avoided answering O'Reilly when he brought it up, leading me to assume he doesn't have much interest in pursuing that route.

 

[LCGeek]

I'm getting to the point where I'm wondering if America really wants a better country or not. I mean people bitch and cry about wanting to talk about the issues, then when a guy comes along to do that people say they don't know what he stands for minutes after he talks about issues for 30 minutes.

I mean is it a race thing. Had Barack Obama been a middle age white guy named Jim Harrison would more lower class white people be following him right now?

A desire or want doesn't replace action. This country only buckles down on a problem when the citizens as a whole get pissed enough or big corporations become annoyed with a problem.

 

[Elfforkusu]

:lol


Mandark: Do you have any hard numbers on the economics of Nuclear power?

IIRC, here's the deal with nuclear fission:

1) Plants cost billions (say $4 billion in capital cost. I'm don't remember the exact figures, and it'll vary from job to job) to set up. There's still no accepted standard for plant design, which means each one is a custom job... no mass production, etc etc. Since nuclear plants are a serious thing, with a lot of (necessary) safety regulations to make sure they're up to snuff, this is a problem.

2) Thanks in part to the lack of a standard, but also the massiveness of the things, they take a long time to build. 10 years or so, a few years more than a coal plant does.

Thanks to the heavy startup cost + length of build time, you can expect to run in the red for about 20 years from when you start building. So 10 years after the thing finally starts operating you finally break even. After that point it's smooth sailing, since the fuel and upkeep costs are less than coal, even with the specialization required to run a nuke plant. 30+ years in it's a great return on the investment.

BUT! If something goes wrong in those first 20 years before you break even... well, as a power company you've lost billions of dollars. Even if it's only a temporary mishap, every minute it's not operating is another minute you're stuck in the red.


It really comes down to standardizing reactor design to limit costs, and providing some level of government assistance to get through the early years. There are some good reactor designs, and some very safe ones (simple failsafes based entirely on the force of gravity to make sure a meltdown can never happen, etc), so the first could happen if people get their act together. As for the second... well, it's probably more likely with Obama as president, just but I'm not sure "likely" is a good word...

 

[Huzah]

And that is why it bugs me so.

As for the rest of what you mentioned, I'm not entirely convinced of the stuff you mentioned about oil, though I will read any links you have on the subject, as I strive to be as educated as possible. And I do support nuclear. Honestly, I support any solution that seeks to actually solve the energy problems of tomorrow. That can include drilling. I just want it all to be under a comprehensive plan that is both realistic and keeping in mind the needs of tomorrow, and not just the here and now.

And everytime I here "drill baby drill," it tells me that this party doesn't really care about the energy problem, despite McCain clinging to his "all of the above" mandate.

I recommend this http://i-r-squared.blogspot.com/ for general energy issues.

Again, www.theoildrum.com for oil related issues, this site is kinda doomish so go in with a grain of salt, but alot of good info and arguements.

Well screaming "drill baby drill" is kinda stupid, it's playing to the crowd, it's a convention after all, not a debate. All I know is that McCain is saying the right things which at least demontrates he understands the issue unlike Obama. If McCain takes office and gives us a stupid short sighted energy plan I will scream as loud as I can as well.

 

[Tyrone Slothrop]

IMO obama must hit back on palin here and there. not doing anything to rebutt her attacks would be kerry-ish. at the same time he's gotta be careful to make attacks mainly concentric around mccain

i find it funny how the GOP talking heads are like "lolz obama's falling into the trap, attacking a VP, lolz" as if that's all he does is attack her non-stop when he really just picks her off here and there. it is highly unorthodox for a pres. candidate to snipe at his opponent's VP but every sensible person knows this is an unorthodox election

 

[LCGeek]

i dont understand this push to reduce our carbon emissions to become a leader when China has already taken our place as the biggest polluter, and other countries like India are filling any gap where we make any gains.

The only way to combat climate change is by a global initiative with everyone on board, otherwise, any gains made are lost somewhere else.

And on the Nuclear front, Obama pretty much avoided answering O'Reilly when he brought it up, leading me to assume he doesn't have much interest in pursuing that route.

BS O'reilly wouldn't let him finish. Obama did decent but Bill not letting him make a point which if you talk more than 10 seconds just isn't enough. I hate this country for this reason alone people think complex problems and the resolutions to them can be done in a quick simplistic cookie cutter fashion.

 

[mckmas8808]

i dont understand this push to reduce our carbon emissions to become a leader when China has already taken our place as the biggest polluter, and other countries like India are filling any gap where we make any gains.

The only way to combat climate change is by a global initiative with everyone on board, otherwise, any gains made are lost somewhere else.

And on the Nuclear front, Obama pretty much avoided answering O'Reilly when he brought it up, leading me to assume he doesn't have much interest in pursuing that route.

He does want nuclear power plants in the future. To be fair O'Reilly cut Obama off like 2 or 3 times when Obama was trying to talk about it.

Did you know his state has the most nuclear power plants in the country?

 

[Huzah]

i dont understand this push to reduce our carbon emissions to become a leader when China has already taken our place as the biggest polluter, and other countries like India are filling any gap where we make any gains.

The only way to combat climate change is by a global initiative with everyone on board, otherwise, any gains made are lost somewhere else.

And on the Nuclear front, Obama pretty much avoided answering O'Reilly when he brought it up, leading me to assume he doesn't have much interest in pursuing that route.

I'm not a big fighter on the climate issue, but I think it's just stupid that people that ARE big fighters still DO NOT support nuclear power, you just can't take those people seriously at all, just pure ignorance and naiveity, much like global warming deniers.

 

[GhaleonEB]

What happen with this story?

Where did this Washington Post story come from? The only "bad" stuff for McCain is a stern editorial condemning McCain's tactics.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy.../09/10/AR2008091003116.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

And an awesome cartoon:

 

[Mandark]

:lol


Mandark: Do you have any hard numbers on the economics of Nuclear power?

Nope. Nothing general or generic. I suspect it's a small enough sample size (each new nuclear plant is a pretty big deal and has its own issues) that it would be hard to come up with an honest $/Mhz number.

This isn't something I've followed obsessively like the factional conflict in Iraq or Bill Murray's movie career, so I'm open to convincing.

But there's plenty of anecdotal evidence that nuclear plants aren't economically effective, the biggest piece being that the market has basically rejected them. If we're going to spend tax money on this I'd like to see more on the plus side of the ledger than "doesn't emit carbon."

Plus Daniel Davies dissed nukes pretty hard and he's a smart smart man. I've pimped those links multiple times, right?

 

[Stinkles]

Where did this Washington Post story come from? The only "bad" stuff for McCain is a stern editorial condemning McCain's tactics.

Thursdayton lives up to its predecessors.

 

[mckmas8808]

I recommend this http://i-r-squared.blogspot.com/ for general energy issues.

Again, www.theoildrum.com for oil related issues, this site is kinda doomish so go in with a grain of salt, but alot of good info and arguements.

Well screaming "drill baby drill" is kinda stupid, it's playing to the crowd, it's a convention after all, not a debate. All I know is that McCain is saying the right things which at least demontrates he understands the issue unlike Obama. If McCain takes office and gives us a stupid short sighted energy plan I will scream as loud as I can as well.

What exactly has McCain said about energy that's so much better than Obama?

 

[Hilo]

CNN is now reporting that story about Palin and the judge.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/10/palin.investigation/index.html

:lol @the pork chop inhaling ginger she-beast
ogling Palin's arse! :lol

 

[Huzah]

He does want nuclear power plants in the future. To be fair O'Reilly cut Obama off like 2 or 3 times when Obama was trying to talk about it.

Did you know his state has the most nuclear power plants in the country?

If he doesn't even have the guts to mention nuclear power on his campaign promises page, why should I believe he will fight for it when he becomes president?

 

[MThanded]

Hai Guyz!

 

[Mandark]

All I know is that McCain is saying the right things which at least demontrates he understands the issue unlike Obama. If McCain takes office and gives us a stupid short sighted energy plan I will scream as loud as I can as well.

Cough hack chortle choke guffaw

 

[Shirokun]

CNN is now reporting that story about Palin and the judge.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/10/palin.investigation/index.html

Aside from the fact that I don't think this is going to be a big deal to the average Joe, what has me truly worried is that Palin is now immune from any criticism. The GOP has, in a short time span, almost successfully planted the notion that the media is simply beating up on her, thus any criticism, no matter the scale or validity, will be rubbish in the eyes of the general populace.

I'm so tired of this shit that I'm seriously considering volunteering for Obama this week. We can't allow any more of this ridiculous PC bullshit to permeate our society.

 

[LCGeek]

If he doesn't even have the guts to mention nuclear power on his campaign promises page, why should I believe he will fight for it when he becomes president?

Because he didn't shut the ones in his state down considering his issue is with what to do with the waste, not exactly sure he had the power but he never brung it up. What makes you feel McCain will be any different?

 

[Byakuya769]

If he doesn't even have the guts to mention nuclear power on his campaign promises page, why should I believe he will fight for it when he becomes president?

His comprehensive energy bill mentions it. Though a democrat would be pretty foolish to add "nuclear power" to their stump, cause a decent constituency would then likely go running to Nader.

Often times we want candidates to scream about the issues that are important to us not realizing that it would likely help them to LOSE. Got to get to the white house before you can enact your platform...

 

[mckmas8808]

Nope. Nothing general or generic. I suspect it's a small enough sample size (each new nuclear plant is a pretty big deal and has its own issues) that it would be hard to come up with an honest $/Mhz number.

This isn't something I've followed obsessively like the factional conflict in Iraq or Bill Murray's movie career, so I'm open to convincing.

But there's plenty of anecdotal evidence that nuclear plants aren't economically effective, the biggest piece being that the market has basically rejected them. If we're going to spend tax money on this I'd like to see more on the plus side of the ledger than "doesn't emit carbon."

Plus Daniel Davies dissed nukes pretty hard and he's a smart smart man. I've pimped those links multiple times, right?

The question I have is if Illinois has the most nuclear power plants, how much are the people saving on energy bills? Is the pollution lower in that state? I mean can we see any positives where nuke power plants are at TODAY?

 

[Huzah]

What exactly has McCain said about energy that's so much better than Obama?

1. Nuclear power
2. No support of biofuel mandates

If you don't understand how big these two are in the energy issues realm than you should read up some more.

Everyone supports geothermal, wind, solar, higher mpg cars and plugin hybrids, because these are no brainers.

 

[Elfforkusu]

If he doesn't even have the guts to mention nuclear power on his campaign promises page, why should I believe he will fight for it when he becomes president?

Because there's no chance in hell a Republican (McCain) will actually pledge the government $$$ necessary to make nuclear power an enticing option for power companies?

Obama might not either, but this notion that McCain is the champion of nuclear power when nuclear power requires an almost socialist mindset to get up and running is kinda laughable.

Note: last post was fact, this is obviously opinion. ;P

 

[GhaleonEB]

Thursdayton lives up to its predecessors.

We need a few thousand posts before we can make that assertion.

 

[mckmas8808]

His comprehensive energy bill mentions it. Though a democrat would be pretty foolish to add "nuclear power" to their stump, cause a decent constituency would then likely go running to Nader.

Often times we want candidates to scream about the issues that are important to us not realizing that it would likely help them to LOSE. Got to get to the white house before you can enact your platform...

Exactly. Huzah this is the honest answer. You noticed that when asked Obama tells you how he feels about nuke energy. But it is true that he would lose some of his base if he mentions it in front of a bunch a DEMs.

 

[Huzah]

Because he didn't shut the ones in his state down considering his issue is with what to do with the waste, not exactly sure he had the power but he never brung it up. What makes you feel McCain will be any different?

Uh, did you miss McCain's 45 to 100 new nuclear power plants meme? It's right there smack dab on his issues page.

Wow, not actively shutting down nuclear power plants is fighting to support them now? Did I forget the political will you need to fight the NIMBY attitude to get any major nuclear plan off the ground?

 

[eclipze]

Is it just me, or does NPR not have a podcast for All things considered?

Their coverage today was made of absolute WIN.

Sarah Palin: "I said thanks, but no thanks to the Bridge to Nowhere"
Mayor of a town in Alaska: "She never said Thanks but no thanks, not once"

Anyways, It's still looking good for the Kerry+IA+CO+NM route. With the bounce from the RNC evaporating, we'll see the work of all those people on the ground start to materialize.

 

[Huzah]

Exactly. Huzah this is the honest answer. You noticed that when asked Obama tells you how he feels about nuke energy. But it is true that he would lose some of his base if he mentions it in front of a bunch a DEMs.

Then I don't think he will buck his party to fight to support it when he becomes president. Argueing that he will fight to support it once he becomes president is wishful thinking.

 

[Trurl]

Exactly. Huzah this is the honest answer. You noticed that when asked Obama tells you how he feels about nuke energy. But it is true that he would lose some of his base if he mentions it in front of a bunch a DEMs.

Didn't he mention it at his convention speech?
I remember learning that he was for nuclear by reading the transcript to that speech.

As President, I will tap our natural gas reserves, invest in clean coal technology, and find ways to safely harness nuclear power. I'll help our auto companies re-tool, so that the fuel-efficient cars of the future are built right here in America. I'll make it easier for the American people to afford these new cars. And I'll invest 150 billion dollars over the next decade in affordable, renewable sources of energy - wind power and solar power and the next generation of biofuels; an investment that will lead to new industries and five million new jobs that pay well and can't ever be outsourced.

According to this site:
http://www.monacome.com/2008/08/barack-obama-dnc-acceptance-speech.html

 

[PantherLotus]

I like how the party of big oil has suddenly become the party of smart energy policy.

 

[Byakuya769]

Then I don't think he will buck his party to fight to support it when he becomes president. Argueing that he will fight to support it once he becomes president is wishful thinking.

Were you saying the same thing when Bush/Cheney were bigging up the nuclear option constantly in the 2000/2004 debates? Yet we haven't seen a single step in that direction, and the GOP were only ousted two years ago.. so what were their roadblocks?

 

[Guy Legend]

Hai Guyz!

 

[GhaleonEB]

I like how the party of big oil has suddenly become the party of smart energy policy.

And their presidential candidate has never supported alternative energy before.

 

[Iksenpets]

Didn't he mention it at his convention speech?
I remember learning that he was for nuclear by reading the transcript to that speech.

I believe he said "safe nuclear" in the middle of his list every other energy source known to man, making sure that all the emphasis was on "safe".

 

[mckmas8808]

Then I don't think he will buck his party to fight to support it when he becomes president. Argueing that he will fight to support it once he becomes president is wishful thinking.

But at that time he'd be running the party. Sometimes you have to buck the party. He's already done it on the FISA bill.

 

[Shirokun]

With the bounce from the RNC evaporating, we'll see the work of all those people on the ground start to materialize.

Don't be so sure. I'm pretty sure the softball Palin interview is on tomorrow night. Watch her not mention a thing about her political views, while blabbering about "hockey mom" this and that. We might not see any bounce back until the debates, and that's assuming the media doesn't spin everything out of wack like they've been known for.

 

[Huzah]

Because there's no chance in hell a Republican (McCain) will actually pledge the government $$$ necessary to make nuclear power an enticing option for power companies?

Obama might not either, but this notion that McCain is the champion of nuclear power when nuclear power requires an almost socialist mindset to get up and running is kinda laughable.

Note: last post was fact, this is obviously opinion. ;P

I don't think you will find to many GOPers that would NOT support government funding for nuclear power if it's reasonable.

Conservatives hate social programs because most of them are just weath redistribution schemes, while an energy plan is not.

Liberterians of course will hate it, but they are just anarchists with money.

 

[Gaborn]

Then I don't think he will buck his party to fight to support it when he becomes president. Argueing that he will fight to support it once he becomes president is wishful thinking.

According to some people in Poligaf Obama will magically support Nuclear energy when he becomes president, will work to stop the FISA abuse he supported at the last minute, is not REALLY a drug warrior like he said, is not REALLY as against marriage equality as he claims, and is essentially being misleading on most of his platform (The NAFTA flip flop during the Ohio primary comes to mind)

 

[Huzah]

I believe he said "safe nuclear" in the middle of his list every other energy source known to man, making sure that all the emphasis was on "safe".

Which then you have to ask, does safe = none? When was the last time we wanted dangerous nuclear power plants.

 

[Elfforkusu]

I don't think you will find to many GOPers that would NOT support government funding for nuclear power if it's reasonable.

Conservatives hate social programs because most of them are just weath redistribution schemes, while an energy plan is not.

Liberterians of course will hate it, but they are just anarchists with money.

You might be right, but I don't know. It'd be a non-trivial amount of money, I'm not sure how McCain could pay for it and keep his tax cuts.

Then again, if running up the deficit is still in play then maybe...

 

[Byakuya769]

.. and we get no discussion of the GOPs inactivity on Nuclear energy over the last 8 years, despite talking about it often...

 

[Thunder Monkey]

I like how the party of big oil has suddenly become the party of smart energy policy.

No shit.

The party in power during the largest increase in crude prices, has done nothing at all to try to fix that problem, and done even less to end our dependence on it.

Somehow the guy towing the party line in nearly all avenues, is going to fix a problem that he never once tried to bring up... that is until it was politically smart to do so.

 

[Huzah]

And their presidential candidate has never supported alternative energy before.

Yes because oil going from 70 dollars to 140 dollars in less than a year and the recent breakthroughs in energy technology HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT correct?

 

[DrEvil]

Seriously, why not? You could just make youtube videos of that in all sorts of different ways, splice some footage in there.

- Palin grinning like an idiot
- "She's gonna have access to the launch codes."
- Terminators walking around and shooting stuff

What, you mean, something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI0G4tIcevs

(I totally took way too long to make this, but it turned out great :lol )

Now it's bed time.

 

[PantherLotus]

Btw, I'm a kid of the 90s, back when Fur was bad, Global Warming was real, Recycling was good for the planet, fossil fuels were bad news bears, offshore drilling would kill the whales, and ANWR was compared to the fucking Everglades in terms of importance and needing to protect it.

WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED TO YOU AMERICA?!


Also,
can anybody help me with a fix for the new firefox? for some reason it's reloading every avatar EVERY TIME I FREAKING REFRESH. what's up with that?

 

[mckmas8808]

And their presidential candidate has never supported alternative energy before.

Yeah Huzah why do you think McCain will actually do alternative energy when he has voted against it all his life?

 

[Hitokage]

Nope. Nothing general or generic. I suspect it's a small enough sample size (each new nuclear plant is a pretty big deal and has its own issues) that it would be hard to come up with an honest $/Mhz number.

This isn't something I've followed obsessively like the factional conflict in Iraq or Bill Murray's movie career, so I'm open to convincing.

But there's plenty of anecdotal evidence that nuclear plants aren't economically effective, the biggest piece being that the market has basically rejected them. If we're going to spend tax money on this I'd like to see more on the plus side of the ledger than "doesn't emit carbon."

Yeah, I've heard similar things. I just want to know what's we're actually looking at with nuclear before throwing in other considerations like carbon emissions.

Plus Daniel Davies dissed nukes pretty hard and he's a smart smart man. I've pimped those links multiple times, right?

Yeah, you have.

 

[eclipze]

527 Idea:

Is Sarah Palin against earmarks?
As Mayor of Wasilla, she cruisaded for $27 million in earmarks for her 5000 people town

What about the bridge to nowhere?

She was for it before she was against it.

But after saying "Thanks, but no thanks" they still received earmarks over $200 million

Reformer? Change?

McCain - Palin - Thanks, but no thanks.


Something like that