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PoliGAF Interim Thread of cunning stunts and desperate punts

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Jak140

Member
Steve Youngblood said:
And honestly, that's fair. I would argue that Jak140's point was irrelevant to begin with.

It's not like anyone is going to argue for legislation that states that abortions are only permittable if the individual regretfully believes that an abortion is unfortunately the most responsible decision given the circumstances. You either believe that each individual should have the right to choose, or you don't.

I don't understand how it is an irrelevant point to make that poverty among minors and infant mortality would rise if abortion was outlawed. Maybe it is irrelevant to point out that many women don't make the choice lightly, but in that case I not so much defending the right to abortion as much as I am trying to clear up a misconception.
 
posted again for new page

vmnonqw9i0iez_i5l5xkva.gif
 

Azih

Member
One thing that you guys need to keep in mind is that there is much value in holding fire for the right points. Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes and all that. I would have preferred for Obama to start the humiliation from McCain's contradictory bull in the debates but there's plenty of fresh ammo in that arsenal and McCain can't really spin his way out of contradictory spin at this point anyway.
 

PhatSaqs

Banned
Man Obama is that dude. He spells his out his plans and points so effortlessly. Not once have I seen him look down at a piece of paper. Is there teleprompter?
 

Keylime

ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
This speech more than others goes to show you just how much substance Obama has in his stump.

I'd love to see John McCain speak to this level of depth in his speeches instead of just blowing smoke up everyone's ass.

PhatSaqs said:
Man Obama is that dude. He spells his out his plans and points so effortlessly. Not once have I seen him look down at a piece of paper. Is there teleprompter?


Almost definitely
 

Justin Bailey

------ ------
Extollere said:
Can somebody post that image that shows the breakdown of bills supported (and help passed) by Obama. I'm trying to convert a would be McCain voter. Any other links or helpful info would be nice, as the guy's political beliefs are pretty sheltered (but shakey). I'm not sure what else to send besides Obama's website and wiki entries.
What's wrong with Wiki entries?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bills_sponsored_by_Barack_Obama_in_the_United_States_Senate

Also for the double hit combo on the McCain supporter that claims "Obama hasn't done anything! He doesn't cross across party lines!" show them the bill he cosponsored with their boy John McCain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Funding_Accountability_and_Transparency_Act_of_2006

That should shut them up for a while.
 

AniHawk

Member
RubxQub said:
This speech more than others goes to show you just how much substance Obama has in his stump.

I'd love to see John McCain speak to this level of depth in his speeches instead of just blowing smoke up everyone's ass.

Scary thing is McCain doesn't have any plans.

Except that he wants to be president.

Fake edit: lol "eight is enough" again.

syllogism said:
Diego/Hotline O46/M42

Trend?

BIG PUSH BAAAAAAAAAAAACK
 
Azih said:
One thing that you guys need to keep in mind is that there is much value in holding fire for the right points. Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes and all that. I would have preferred for Obama to start the humiliation from McCain's contradictory bull in the debates but there's plenty of fresh ammo in that arsenal and McCain can't really spin his way out of contradictory spin at this point anyway.

I don't think "regular people" follow the daily stump speeches like GAF does. Whatever he says in the debates will be the first time alot of those people have heard it.
 
Jak140 said:
I don't understand how it is an irrelevant point to make that poverty among minors and infant mortality would rise if abortion was outlawed. Maybe it is irrelevant to point out that many women don't make the choice lightly, but in that case I not so much defending the right to abortion as much as I am trying to clear up a misconception.
Because, fundamentally, that's not what the debate is about. That's not why this is such a hot-button, divisive issue. You're going off on a tangent that, while grounded in pragmatism, does nothing to address the divide that exists at a basic level.

Concerning the first part of the argument, while I personally would agree with you, pro-life individuals are never going to see those concerns as outweighing what they see as the slaughter of innocent babies. The second part of the argument is irrelevant since we don't require that an individual write an essay as to why they're having the abortion, and then grade it with a pass or fail stamp based on its righteousness.
 

Jak140

Member
avatar299 said:
The rape comment was a general comment.

We have no proof that abortion is always a tough choice. Everything points counter to that in fact, and the infant mortality rate is so high in America is becuase we have so many underage pregnancies and our country is pretty damn big.

I'm for abortion, but the "bitter tears" argument is more Hollywood fabrication than reality

I am not making the argument that it is always a tough choice, just that It often is. People I know have had to chose whether or not to have an abortion. While they ultimately did not, it was not a fucking easy choice. It's not a "Hollywood fabrication," and I am restraining myself from using a string of expletives in response to you insinuating it as such.
 

Xisiqomelir

Member
Y2Kev said:
Someone should look into how Moody's or whomever gave Lehman's first tranche a AAA rating.

Hahaha, the ratings firms are a whole new kettle of fish. If people weren't so damn lazy and stupid, they'd be horrified at what actually goes into the grading of corporate entities.
 

avatar299

Banned
Stoney Mason said:
Societies are very different. That's why we have different social and moral customs between us. To pick one random example Sweden is a far less religious country than us. By most accounts Sweden has the highest number of self-identified atheists or agnostics of any country on the planet. Theoretically you could argue that puts much less of a religious aspect into the whole abortion argument that hangs around the abortion issue in this country. We are one of the more religious countries in the world. That alone can often complicate the decision to have or not have an abortion. That is indeed a "tough choice" for some people whether you agree or not. That is one random element in a universe of hundreds because we are not Sweden. We don't have their culture. It might even be argued we currently don't have their health-care when you look at the infant mortality rate versus the US. So because Sweden feels or believes a certain way about certain issues is no decisive correlation on how Americans feel or believe on the same issues.
Not true. Sweden doesn't have one dominant religion like we do, but there are a ton there. in fact many children are automatically Lutheran when they are born. There are a high number of atheists, but I think it's a stretch to say Sweden is a secular society

Small differences doesn't make a society insular of it's self. America's abortion views are slightly more conservative compared to many other European countries, but not conservative enough for me to believe that we can't look across the pond and study them imo
 

Keylime

ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
AniHawk said:
Scary thing is McCain doesn't have any plans.

Except that he wants to be president.

Fake edit: lol "eight is enough" again.



BIG PUSH BAAAAAAAAAAAACK
Such a shame...

That Barack speech was pretty damn good. One of the better one's he's delivered in recent memory. Hit just about all the issues and laid out his plans while mixing in a lot of good uplifting messages to get people pumped.
 

Tamanon

Banned
McCain supporter Carly Fiorina, the former CEO of Hewlett Packard, seemed to veer off message for a moment on St. Louis's KTRS Radio, when she made the case that Sarah Palin may be qualified to run Amerca -- but certainly not to run her old company.

"Do you think she has the experience to run a major company like Hewlett Packard?" the host asked Fiorina.

"No, I don’t," she replied. "But that’s not what she’s running for. Running a corporation is a different set of things."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensm...t_have_the_experience_to_run_HP.html#comments

LOL
 

Jak140

Member
Steve Youngblood said:
Because, fundamentally, that's not what the debate is about. That's not why this is such a hot-button, divisive issue. You're going off on a tangent that, while grounded in pragmatism, does nothing to address the divide that exists at a basic level.

Concerning the first part of the argument, while I personally would agree with you, pro-life individuals are never going to see those concerns as outweighing what they see as the slaughter of innocent babies. The second part of the argument is irrelevant since we don't require that an individual write an essay as to why they're having the abortion, and then grade it with a pass or fail stamp based on its righteousness.

I'm not just arguing for it on an individual level, but as a necessity for the benefit of society as a whole. I do not believe that it just comes down to just the way the debate is popularly framed and I think that ignoring those pragmatic issues is part of what allows the debate to rage on. I think if some pro-lifers could be presented with the argument on the level that outlawing abortion would ultimately harm more children, it might change some minds.
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
Obama said:
If you want to understand the difference between how Senator McCain and I would govern as President, you can start by taking a look at how we’ve responded to this crisis. Because Senator McCain's approach was the same as the Bush Administration’s: support ideological policies that made the crisis more likely; do nothing as the crisis hits; and then scramble as the whole thing collapses. My approach has been to try to prevent this turmoil.

Obama said:
Make no mistake: my opponent is running for four more years of policies that will throw the economy further out of balance. His outrage at Wall Street would be more convincing if he wasn’t offering them more tax cuts. His call for fiscal responsibility would be believable if he wasn’t for more tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans, and more of a trillion dollar war in Iraq paid for with deficit spending and borrowing from foreign creditors like China. His newfound support for regulation bears no resemblance to his scornful attitude towards oversight and enforcement. John McCain cannot be trusted to reestablish proper oversight of our financial markets for one simple reason: he has shown time and again that he does not believe in it.

Hotness.


Obama said:
Now it falls to us. And I need you to make it happen. If you want the next four years looking just like the last eight, then I am not your candidate. But if you want real change – if you want an economy that rewards work, and that works for Main Street and Wall Street; if you want tax relief for the middle class and millions of new jobs; if you want health care you can afford and education so that our kids can compete; then I ask you to knock on some doors, and make some calls, and talk to your neighbors, and give me your vote on November 4th. And if you do, I promise you – we will win Colorado, we will win this election, and we will change America together.

Fire!!
 
Y2Kev said:
Someone should look into how Moody's or whomever gave Lehman's first tranche a AAA rating.

The ratings agencies actually deserve a portion of the blame for this entire mess, and it is good to see a politician stand up and say that they need better investigation and regulation.
 
Palin's favourability is sinking : 538

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/09/palins-favorability-numbers-eroding.html

The Research 2000 poll for Daily Kos now has Palin's favorability-unfavorability scores at 45-44 -- just a +1. Six days ago, when the poll, launched, she was at a 52-35, a +17.


Her favorability numbers in yesterday's Hotline poll -- today's isn't out yet -- were a 48-36, or a +12. But a week ago, on September 8, she had been at a 48-24, a +24.
 

AniHawk

Member
Diageo/Hotline: Obama + 4
DailyKos/Research 2000: Obama + 4
Rasmussen: McCain + 1
Gallup: McCain + 1
Average: Obama + 1.5

WE'VE TAKEN BACK THE NIGHT!

Average from yesterday: Tie
Average from Sunday: McCain + 0.25
 

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/mccain-spars-with-morning-joe-co-host/

i'm still a bit perplexed as to why McCain even bothered to target Mika after a very innocuous question that essentially piggy-backed off what Scarborough asked. being this blatantly antagonistic (not to mention presumptuous) towards the media isn't an effective long-term strategy.

fuck, even Obama treated ol' falafel Shover with a modicum of respect.
 
avatar299 said:
Small differences doesn't make a society insular of it's self. America's abortion views are slightly more conservative compared to many other European countries, but not conservative enough for me to believe that we can't look across the pond and study them imo

Study them sure. I wouldn't mind seeing some data on the issues of sexuality between us and Sweden period or abortion but unless there is some corroborating data there the argument is largely an opinion argument which is what I'm trying to get across. Just because you say Sweden feels X on a subject is no reason to say Americans feel X on the same subject unless we are actually talking about something concrete data wise.
 
Interesting proof that confirms that conservatives are, in general, defective people and should not be allowed to vote:

THE BACKFIRE EFFECT....What happens when you tell people that someone has made a false claim? Shankar Vedantam reports:

Political scientists Brendan Nyhan and Jason Reifler provided two groups of volunteers with the Bush administration's prewar claims that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. One group was given a refutation -- the comprehensive 2004 Duelfer report that concluded that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction before the United States invaded in 2003. Thirty-four percent of conservatives told only about the Bush administration's claims thought Iraq had hidden or destroyed its weapons before the U.S. invasion, but 64 percent of conservatives who heard both claim and refutation thought that Iraq really did have the weapons. The refutation, in other words, made the misinformation worse.

A similar "backfire effect" also influenced conservatives told about Bush administration assertions that tax cuts increase federal revenue. One group was offered a refutation by prominent economists that included current and former Bush administration officials. About 35 percent of conservatives told about the Bush claim believed it; 67 percent of those provided with both assertion and refutation believed that tax cuts increase revenue.

Italics mine. Nyhan and Reifler found this "backfire" effect only among conservatives. Refutations had little effect on liberals, but it didn't cause them to actively believe the misleading information even more strongly.

Why? Reifler suggests it's because conservatives are more rigid than liberals. Maybe so. If I had to guess, though, I'd say it's because right-wing talkers have spent so many years deriding "so-called experts" that they now have negative credibility with many conservatives. The very fact that an expert says a conservative claim is wrong is taken as a good reason to believe the claim. This could probably be tested by doing a study of factual information outside the realm of politics and seeing if conservatives react the same way. If they do, maybe that's support for the generic rigidity theory. If not, it's support for the theory that conservatives simply distrust political elites.

For more, here is Reifler's online Q&A at the Washington Post this morning.

UPDATE: I should add that these weren't the only two questions Nyhan and Reifler asked. They also asked a question about stem cell research in which it was liberals who might be expected to resist the truth. They didn't find any backfire effect there either, though.

UPDATE: The full paper is here. Via email, Nyhan tells me that they tried to test my proposition that conservatives don't trust elite experts by varying the source of the refutations. Sometimes it was the New York Times, other times it was Fox News. "Surprisingly," he says, "it had little effect."
Maybe McCain's "lie your ass off through a shit eating grin" strategy might work afterall.
 

Xisiqomelir

Member
AniHawk said:
Diageo/Hotline: Obama + 4
DailyKos/Research 2000: Obama + 4
Rasmussen: McCain + 1
Gallup: McCain + 1
Average: Obama + 1.5

WE'VE TAKEN BACK THE NIGHT!

My only regret w/ my Intrade bet is that I didn't wait just 2 hours longer for the full effect of Lipstick-gate. This election was always unwinnable by McSame, and barring the SS massively dropping the ball, will continue to remain so.

p.s. Hyacha
 

GhaleonEB

Member
AniHawk said:
Diageo/Hotline: Obama + 4
DailyKos/Research 2000: Obama + 4
Rasmussen: McCain + 1
Gallup: McCain + 1
Average: Obama + 1.5

WE'VE TAKEN BACK THE NIGHT!

Average from yesterday: Tie
Average from Sunday: McCain + 0.25
All four polls showed movement towards Obama today.
 

gcubed

Member
Xisiqomelir said:
My only regret w/ my Intrade bet is that I didn't wait just 2 hours longer for the full effect of Lipstick-gate. This election was always unwinnable by McSame, and barring the SS massively dropping the ball, will continue to remain so.

p.s. Hyacha

yeah, but werent you freaking out that you didnt even think you would get the bet in in time? Look on the bright side, you got awesome value
 

Xisiqomelir

Member
gcubed said:
yeah, but werent you freaking out that you didnt even think you would get the bet in in time? Look on the bright side, you got awesome value

Yeah, I totally was :lol

Good thing I used the bank wire deposit instead of FedExing a check, I'd never have made it in time.
 
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