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[Jak140]

The health care issue cannot be blamed on one party... and it's really not the government's job to teach people to be responsible.

I'd also like to know how Republicans would outlaw abortion. It's not as if they're not trying, but we pretty much have no chance unless several liberal-leaning justices retire and are replaced by conservative ones.

So your plan is to have hundreds of thousands of unwanted babies born every year in a country with the highest poverty rate for minors in the industrialized world without any government run education programs to counter the effect?

Brilliant.

And to achieve this plan you want to vote for the party that brought us an illegal war that has put our grandchildren in debt, illegal wire tapping, the patriot act, and market deregulation that caused the economic meltdown. And you want to institutionalize these practices by loading the supreme court with justices that will stay in office for decades?

 

[Price Dalton]

The health care issue cannot be blamed on one party... and it's really not the government's job to teach people to be responsible.

I'd also like to know how Republicans would outlaw abortion. It's not as if they're not trying, but we pretty much have no chance unless several liberal-leaning justices retire and are replaced by conservative ones.

So.... ban all sex education altogether?

You honestly don't see the benefits of teaching kids about safe-sex? People fuck. They've fucked all through pre-history and history. They will continue to fuck. It's what they do. Why not let 'em know about condoms rather than expect them to stifle a base human urge?

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

Newsweek has the scoop as well, so we have two very good sources for this story now.

So, the campaign coordinator for McCain was getting paid to lobby for Freddie Mac up until August.

:lol

Its like watching a slomo train wreck.

But sadly, it'll be labeled as "lulz librul media" and passed right along.

 

[PhoenixDark]

The Times' just gave Obama a gift basket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/us/politics/w24davis.html?hp

McCain Aide’s Firm Was Paid by Freddie Mac


Money for access, plain and simple.

Might be why Schmidt was trashing the Times so hard - both for the previous article, and because they were investigating this. Something tells me Obama will be talking about this for the rest of the election.

Owned. Tomorrow is gonna be a riot

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Preaching abstinence is what is fucking retarded. Teenage kids are horny. They will fuck. The right needs to get the hell over it.

And? How does that argue against my original point? It does not. I never even commented on if it's a good idea or not. I was commenting on the idiocy of the original "trying to ban sex altogether" comment. You can't argue that the comment is even true at all. It's stupid.

Yeah, quite clearly, I'm the retarded one. Because this administration never placed contingencies on educational funding by requiring abstinence-only education.

If you don't tell people about how to do something, maybe they won't do it!

You have yet to prove your claim that they are trying to "ban sex". Apparently you simply cannot admit it when you are wrong or have made an error in a comment. I am not arguing that they are preaching abstinence. I will agree with that. I will not agree that they are trying to "ban sex". Hello McFly! Is anybody in there!

 

[speculawyer]

DO we have to constantly get back into the 'abortion is mass murder' discussion every few pages? There's nothing that hasn't been said about the topic. FOr those of you who hold this view, we get it, good for you. It isnt advanceing the discourse in any way.

It certainly strengthens my argument that the GOP's biggest asset is the abortion argument. They've got a bunch of voters that will vote for people that start pointless wars, take away healthcare, ship their jobs overseas, and basically crap all over them as long as they are anti-aboriton.

 

[Branduil]

So.... ban all sex education altogether?

You honestly don't see the benefits of teaching kids about safe-sex? People fuck. They've fucked all through pre-history and history. They will continue to fuck. It's what they do. Why not let 'em know about condoms rather than expect them to stifle a base human urge?

Sure I see the benefits. But it shouldn't be the schools that are doing it.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Well, it at least solves the problem of implicitly-sanctioned murder.

I don't see why you assume that banning abortion automatically means taking no other steps to stop it after that.

From your perspective of thinking that abortion is the same as murder, the only thing banning it would do is solve "government-sanctioned" murder. It will definitely not get rid of abortions. Do you think people who wanted to get abortions would suddenly give up and just raise their child because abortion is banned? Definitely not. Should it be banned, immediately there will be a huge black market for abortions. People will perform abortions via unsafe methods that may no succeed or even hurt the mother. Hell some mothers may just wait until the baby is born and then just throw it in a dumpster. I think it would be preferable to end the fetus' existence in a safe manner than it would be to throw away a born baby, and that is exactly what will happen en masse if abortion was actually banned. Prohibition of alcohol didn't work at all. People still go drunk. Marijuana and many other drugs are banned, but that doesn't stop people from getting high. Banning abortions isn't going to do anything other than make the situation worse.

The only logical answer is to try and decrease the number of unwanted births through accessible birth prevention goods and increased awareness through education. The Republican answer of abstinence education-only isn't going to work either because horny teenagers are going to have sex and that is all there is to it. Telling them less about sex is only going to make them more interested in it and less informed about how to do it safely.

Whether or not you are for or against the idea of abortions you should be able to realize that an outright ban of them would not be productive in any way.

 

[Cloudy]

i think in the trajectory of 50 years you'll see the complete dissolution of the GOP unless they finally eschew screwball far-right ideology. i honestly can't see a future where people equate abortion with murder and decry homosexuality. they're just silly and regressive and it's only a matter of time until joe america realizes that.

The GOP won't have to change just because of their ideology. It'll be because of demographics as well. This country is just too diverse now and they'll have to be a bit more inclusive to attract minorities (will they even still be minorities?) and today's young people..

 

[reilo]

And? How does that argue against my original point? It does not. I never even commented on if it's a good idea or not. I was commenting on the idiocy of the original "trying to ban sex altogether" comment. You can't argue that the comment is even true at all. It's stupid.

Maybe you should learn what sarcasm is, but that would require you to, you know, learn something.

 

[Justin Bailey]

It certainly strengthens my argument that the GOP's biggest asset is the abortion argument. They've got a bunch of voters that will vote for people that start pointless wars, take away healthcare, ship their jobs overseas, and basically crap all over them as long as they are anti-aboriton.

Oh yes, especially in the South.

 

[speculawyer]

GAF, never change. Please, I need a good laugh from time to time.

Dr_Cogent
Resident Literalist
(Today, 06:36 PM)
Reply | Quote

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Maybe you should learn what sarcasm is, but that would require you to, you know, learn something.

Oh, so now it's sarcasm. :lol

Perhaps you should just say what you mean instead of stupid retarded inflammatory inaccurate bullshit.

should start looking for proxies Dr_Cogent
Resident Literalist
(Today, 06:36 PM)
Reply | Quote

I stand by that tag.

Plenty of people here would have a hell of a lot more credibility if they actually made sense. Would you see Obama saying something so stupid? No, you wouldn't. Be more like your hero then is what I say.

 

[Branduil]

From your perspective of thinking that abortion is the same as murder, the only thing banning it would do is solve "government-sanctioned" murder. It will definitely not get rid of abortions. Do you think people who wanted to get abortions would suddenly give up and just raise their child because abortion is banned? Definitely not. Should it be banned, immediately there will be a huge black market for abortions. People will perform abortions via unsafe methods that may no succeed or even hurt the mother. Hell some mothers may just wait until the baby is born and then just throw it in a dumpster. I think it would be preferable to end the fetus' existence in a safe manner than it would be to throw away a born baby, and that is exactly what will happen en masse if abortion was actually banned. Prohibition of alcohol didn't work at all. People still go drunk. Marijuana and many other drugs are banned, but that doesn't stop people from getting high. Banning abortions isn't going to do anything other than make the situation worse.

The only logical answer is to try and decrease the number of unwanted births through accessible birth prevention goods and increased awareness through education. The Republican answer of abstinence education-only isn't going to work either because horny teenagers are going to have sex and that is all there is to it. Telling them less about sex is only going to make them more interested in it and less informed about how to do it safely.

Whether or not you are for or against the idea of abortions you should be able to realize that an outright ban of them would not be productive in any way.

It would be a start.

I don't think anyone has said it would be possible to 100% stop all abortions. But you can't stop all murder either. Doesn't mean we should ever sanction it.

 

[Cloudy]

Heh, so it was Bush who wanted to prolong the war:

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/09/23/maliki-bush-mccain-iraq/

I hope Fox News has this on their website like they did with the NY Post article that tried to smear Obama

 

[DenogginizerOS]

Bush and most Republicans are for a trillion dollar war in Iraq, against a right to choose, and against 35 billion dollars for healthcare for kids. Today, we hear from his Goldman-Sachs CEO Treasurer that we face doom if we don't bail out Wall Street. The policies of this administration have almost always been in favor of disrupting the lives of working Americans and against disrupting the corporate lives of so many in its base. I have such a bad taste for Bush and his loyalists and the many Republicans that supported him with their W stickers and their smug that a part of me only can laugh as I look at how royally fucked so many people are due to his incompetence. It is like a retard said, "I got this!" and so many believed him.

 

[HylianTom]

Court consequences..

Obama wins this election:
He replaces Stevens and Ginsburg. Barring a political earthquake that sends minority voters to the GOP, national and state-by-state demographics continue to move in a direction such that the Dems have a near-lock on the Electoral College, increasing probability that they keep winning and are able to replace the Scalia wing one-by-one. The Stevens wing probably controls the court for more than a generation.

McCain wins this election:
He replaces Stevens, probably Ginsburg, and probably an older conservative justice or two. Conservatives hold the court for another 20-30 years, barring tragedy befalling members of the Scalia wing. Court stays to the right while demographic shift moves the voting public - and the other two branches of govt - to the left.

{Side question: If the GOP becomes electorally obsolete, I honestly wonder how much violence we'll see from homegrown terrorists?}

 

[Fatalah]

Owned. Tomorrow is gonna be a riot

It better be.

I hope all the other media publications pick up on this. If I were the NYTimes, I would have e-mailed a heads up to every buddy I have in the biz.

"It's one big giant conspiracy against John McCain!" -- McCain's excuse tomorrow?

 

[Branduil]

The idea of a semi-permanent Dem majority is a fantasy... eventually they'll move too far to the left, corruption will spread, while the GOP repositions itself to take advantage, and things while tilt the other way again.

 

[Ike]

Quick question: Was there not a new Daily Show/Colbert Report last night? Because it's not up on hulu.com

 

[Arde5643]

Oh god, Campbell Brown is pure grade 100% awesome!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkemPwvi_qY

Stop the sexist and chauvinistic treatment on Gov Palin. She's not a delicate flower that will wilt in a second. She's from Alaska, for chrissakes!

 

[Deleted member 17706]

It would be a start.

I don't think anyone has said it would be possible to 100% stop all abortions. But you can't stop all murder either. Doesn't mean we should ever sanction it.

It don't see how banning abortions will be a start to anything. Banning it isn't going to stop anyone who is serious about not having their kid. They will just do it illegally and possibly be caught and punished, but either way they are not going to go through with birthing the child or raising it. All you will have is a bunch of people in jail for the crime of abortion or a bunch of babies thrown in dumpsters immediately after birth. I don't see how you think that banning abortions will do anything productive. Do you honestly think anyone is just going to give up and have their kid and raise it too? If they were willing to do that, why would they be getting an abortion in the first place? Do you think people get abortions because they just don't feel like having the kid?

 

[Death_Born]

Owned. Tomorrow is gonna be a riot

It better be. This is the evidence Obama needs to shut down McCain's lies once and for all.

 

[capslock]

It better be.

I hope all the other media publications pick up on this. If I were the NYTimes, I would have e-mailed a heads up to every buddy I have in the biz.

"It's one big giant conspiracy against John McCain!" -- McCain's excuse tomorrow?

They shouldn't have fucked with a newspaper with as much clout and sources as NYT. Hope you're happy Steve Schmidt.

Rick Davis resignation watch begins.

 

[numble]

It would be a start.

I don't think anyone has said it would be possible to 100% stop all abortions. But you can't stop all murder either. Doesn't mean we should ever sanction it.

Prohibition was a start...

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Do you think people get abortions because they just don't feel like having the kid?

Um, yes? If you think otherwise, you are quite naive. People get abortions for all sorts of reasons, and that is one of them.

 

[Stinkles]

No, actually, you're the one trying to do that. You fail, but thanks for trying.

Sigh.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Sure I see the benefits. But it shouldn't be the schools that are doing it.

So who should teach it then? Why not the schools? The fact is that most parents are too embarassed or feel it is too awkward to tell their kids about sex and most kids in their teens won't even want to listen to what their parents have to say. Why is it okay to tell kids about drugs and how they are bad in school, but not about safe sex?

 

[JayDubya]

From your perspective of thinking that abortion is the same as murder, the only thing banning it would do is solve "government-sanctioned" murder. It will definitely not get rid of abortions.

That's not an argument. Unless you think the mere fact that people will always choose to do things that are illegal is always a valid point in an argument against that thing being illegal, in which case you're a total anarchist.

People will perform abortions via unsafe methods that may no succeed or even hurt the mother.

Not seeing a problem here. Don't care about the working conditions for those that are in the midst of violating the rights of the innocent. I don't worry about safe, sterile environments for muggers.

Prohibition of alcohol didn't work at all. People still go drunk. Marijuana and many other drugs are banned, but that doesn't stop people from getting high. Banning abortions isn't going to do anything other than make the situation worse.

Alcohol use is a victimless crime. Marijuana use is a victimless crime. Abortion is not victimless.

The only logical answer is to try and decrease the number of unwanted births through accessible birth prevention goods and increased awareness through education. The Republican answer of abstinence education-only isn't going to work either because horny teenagers are going to have sex and that is all there is to it. Telling them less about sex is only going to make them more interested in it and less informed about how to do it safely.

What you're failing to realize is that spending money on teaching 5th graders how to use condoms is not the only alternative to telling 5th graders not to use condoms.

All you will have is a bunch of people in jail for the crime of abortion...

I don't see how you think that banning abortions will do anything productive.

The second sentence makes no sense because the first one explains away any possible confusion.

 

[speculawyer]

It would be a start.

I don't think anyone has said it would be possible to 100% stop all abortions. But you can't stop all murder either. Doesn't mean we should ever sanction it.

Yeah because if there is one thing this planet really needs more of is unwanted children. That is gonna make things sooooo much better.

 

[reilo]

Oh, so now it's sarcasm. :lol

Perhaps you should just say what you mean instead of stupid retarded inflammatory inaccurate bullshit.



I stand by that tag.

Plenty of people here would have a hell of a lot more credibility if they actually made sense. Would you see Obama saying something so stupid? No, you wouldn't. Be more like your hero then is what I say.

The literal interpretation of "banning sex altogether" was sarcasm, but the overall point still stands that republicans are part of the problem as to why there is such a high abortion rate in the first place.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Rick Davis resignation watch begins.

McCain and Davis lied about this. I hope to god Obama and all his surrogates trumpet this tomorrow and until it realllly sticks with the media/voters.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Yeah because if there is one thing this planet really needs more of is unwanted children. That is gonna make things sooooo much better.

There are plenty of people who want children who cannot have them and the process of adopting a child is expensive and out of many peoples reaches. My aunt and uncle went to China to adopt a child and it was uber expensive.

What they need to legalize is post birth abortions.

The literal interpretation of "banning sex altogether" was sarcasm, but the overall point still stands that republicans are part of the problem as to why there is such a high abortion rate in the first place.

Now you've lost me. It's the Republicans fault that there is such a high rate of abortions. WTF? Care to elaborate?

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

Say, does anyone have a link to those articles about the demographic changes that will happen in the US over the next 50 years and how they will impact US politics?

I remember some stuff about whites losing their majority (while still being the largest demographic group) and a Liberalism-dominated political climate.

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

Quick question: Was there not a new Daily Show/Colbert Report last night? Because it's not up on hulu.com

Yeah it was a repeat.

 

[agrajag]

 

[Branduil]

It don't see how banning abortions will be a start to anything. Banning it isn't going to stop anyone who is serious about not having their kid. They will just do it illegally and possibly be caught and punished, but either way they are not going to go through with birthing the child or raising it. All you will have is a bunch of people in jail for the crime of abortion or a bunch of babies thrown in dumpsters immediately after birth. I don't see how you think that banning abortions will do anything productive. Do you honestly think anyone is just going to give up and have their kid and raise it too? If they were willing to do that, why would they be getting an abortion in the first place? Do you think people get abortions because they just don't feel like having the kid?

A lot of people aren't serious about it... at least not serious enough to break the law.

I didn't say it would solve everything... because unlike those on the far left, I don't think government can solve everything. Lots of work would have to be done by private organizations and individuals.

The bottom line is, I don't believe the government should do things merely out of practicality. It should do what is right first, practical second.

 

[speculawyer]

Um, yes? If you think otherwise, you are quite naive. People get abortions for all sorts of reasons, and that is one of them.

Have you put a lot of thought into the extremely foreseeable consequences of forcing people that don't want kids to have those kids?

Hey let's force people that are too incompetent to use birth control properly into having and raising kids. It is basically the inverse of evolution. Awesome plan. Third world status, here we come!

 

[capslock]

McCain and Davis lied about this. I hope to god Obama and all his surrogates trumpet this tomorrow and until it realllly sticks with the media/voters.

I really really wish the Obama hadn't fought for the first debate to be about foreign policy. If they had been discussing economics on Friday this would have been a chance to deliver a final knock-out blow to McCain.

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

:lol

 

[Branduil]

Yeah because if there is one thing this planet really needs more of is unwanted children. That is gonna make things sooooo much better.

No but we do need less people who don't want their children.

 

[maximum360]

:lol

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Have you put a lot of thought into the extremely foreseeable consequences of forcing people that don't want kids to have those kids?

Hey let's force people that are too incompetent to use birth control properly into having and raising kids. It is basically the inverse of evolution. Awesome plan. Third world status, here we come!

So giving the child up for adoption is not an option. OK.

I'm not even professing that they should outlaw abortion (although I don't agree with it). My point still stands, people use it as a form of birth control. Arguing the point otherwise is naive and foolish. You can't honestly tell me that some people don't use it because they simply don't want to have a kid. That was the argument, and I am saying that argument is patently false. Are you denying it?

 

[heliosRAzi]

This is how I envision Palin at the debates

http://www.hulu.com/watch/25443/its-always-sunny-in-philadelphia-the-gang-runs-for-office?c=793:815

 

[Amir0x]

I really really wish the Obama hadn't fought for the first debate to be about foreign policy. If they had been discussing economics on Friday this would have been a chance to deliver a final knock-out blow to McCain.

except it wouldn't be the final knock-out blow, because the foreign policy debate would still come up and only this time it would be the final thing on voter's minds about these two candidates

 

[GhaleonEB]

I really really wish the Obama hadn't fought for the first debate to be about foreign policy. If they had been discussing economics on Friday this would have been a chance to deliver a final knock-out blow to McCain.

If Obama blows it, he has 40 days and two debates to recover. If he does well - even relative to expectations - McCain will struggle to come back. Plus, it's on a Friday night which historically have reduced viewership. Though I think this year will be an exception.

And domestic policy - the economy - is one week before the election. Could be a big boost to Obama.

 

[speculawyer]

There are plenty of people who want children who cannot have them and the process of adopting a child is expensive and out of many peoples reaches. My aunt and uncle went to China to adopt a child and it was uber expensive.

Cute anecdotal story . . . . now how about reality?

What should we do about the thousands of older or non-preferred race kids waiting to be adopted?

 

[Freedom = $1.05]

Libertarians against abortion rights? Does not compute.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

That's not an argument. Unless you think the mere fact that people will always choose to do things that are illegal is always a valid point in an argument against that thing being illegal, in which case you're a total anarchist.

I think that abortions are quite a bit different than other things that are currently illegal. If you get to the point where you decide you cannot birth the child for whatever reason, then I doubt the fact that it is illegal will stop many people. It is a huge decision to make for the mother and a very difficult one at that. It's a totally different ballgame than other illegal activities.

Not seeing a problem here.

Well you are also the guy who thinks that the government of a country should not provide its citizens with healthcare and that healthcare is just like any other business where if you don't have the cash to pay up then you shouldn't get the service. Pretty much you think that poor people deserve to die if they can't afford healthcare. I am not surprised that you don't care about woman who decides to get an abortion.[/QUOTE]

Alcohol use is a victimless crime. Marijuana use is a victimless crime. Abortion is not victimless.

Consumption of alcohol and marijuana is, generally, a victimless crime, but both are often tied to or are the root of crimes that are not victimless. There is no drunk driving without alcohol, for example. I'm sure alcohol-influenced crimes were one of the reasons that the country attempted prohibition so long ago.

What you're failing to realize is that spending money on teaching 5th graders how to use condoms is not the only alternative to telling 5th graders not to use condoms.

So what are some other alternatives that you think are a good idea? I'm not failing to realize anything, but I do think that early sex education, like any kind of education, can help immensely.

 

[DenogginizerOS]

Abortion is not a Democratic or Republican issue; it is a personal issue. Rather than going back and forth about abortion, why don't some of you who want to ban it find ways to keep people informed about and prepared for safe sex? But rather than actually solve the problem, most Republicans dust off their anti-abortion Bibles around election times to argue for their candidate of choice because it is a wedge issue and divides this nation rather than unite. The divide and conquer mentality is the the NeoCon go-to play. No surprise seeing it so prominently being discussed by the McCainiacs and the Bushwhackers.