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PoliGAF Interim Thread of USA General Elections (DAWN OF THE VEEP)

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T

thekad

Banned
I don't understand what JD is arguing about anymore. Does he disagree with public financing or does he disagree with a cap on how much someone can donate?
 
R

ronito

Member
thekad said:
I don't understand what JD is arguing about anymore. Does he disagree with public financing or does he disagree with a cap on how much someone can donate?
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He disagrees with the rich being not being able to buy what they want. In this case elections.
 
J

JayDubya

Banned
speculawyer said:
It's called a bribe.
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When I donated $50 to Ron Paul's campaign (what we could afford) or you donate whatever it is you have to Obama, was that a bribe? Maybe just a little bribe?

thekad said:
I don't understand what JD is arguing about anymore. Does he disagree with public financing or does he disagree with a cap on how much someone can donate?
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Yes!
 
G

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD JUST ANNOUNCE IT ALREADY OBAMA. I DON'T CARE WHO YOU PICK ANYMORE, IT COULD BE CHEEBS FOR ALL I CARE! JUST ANNOUNCE!
 
F

Frank the Great

Banned
JayDubya said:
When I donated $50 to Ron Paul's campaign (what we could afford) or you donate whatever it is you have to Obama, was that a bribe?
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No, but if the oil industry CEOs get together and donate $5 million to McCain, then yeah, it is.
 
F

FnordChan

Member
JayDubya said:
I'm familiar with Boss Tweed and Tammany Hall and recall something of Twain writing about it. Not sure what your point is, exactly, since we're talking private voluntary donations to candidates and whether or not limits are justified.
Click to expand...

My point is that it's a shining example of why campaign spending should not be unregulated if you want anything even vaguely approaching a fair election. Let me break down the recap for you: Tammany Hall controlled politics via unfettered spending.

FnordChan
 
S

speculawyer

Member
JayDubya said:
Also, yeah, the Murdochs and the Turners get to donate more to candidates they like because they can afford to do so. Big deal. People pay what they can to causes they approve of. At the end of the day, everyone makes up their own mind and votes for who they want.
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And then when they are in office . . . Hi Mr. Senator, vote for this law saying I never have to pay taxes again and I'll give you $300,000. I knew I could count on you Mr. Senator.

You seriously don't see any problem with that? Of course they wouldn't do it so obviously, but it would be rampant. We already have huge problems with this.

And what is this 'people wouldn't have problem with it' crap? It is all the framing. If you ask people, "should people be allowed to bribe law-makers", do you really think most non Democrats would say "Yes"? :lol
 
C

Cheebs

Member
grandjedi6 said:
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD JUST ANNOUNCE IT ALREADY OBAMA. I DON'T CARE WHO YOU PICK ANYMORE, IT COULD BE CHEEBS FOR ALL I CARE! JUST ANNOUNCE!
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Well I am from MI so I would help lock that state down but I was raised mostly in Ohio, a swing state that helps. My grandfather was a fireman and my other grandfather worked at a Ford assembly line so I have some blue collar roots to help in states like PA and Ohio.
 
T

thekad

Banned
350px-~hanna96.jpg



JayDubya said:
When I donated $50 to Ron Paul's campaign (what we could afford) or you donate whatever it is you have to Obama, was that a bribe? Maybe just a little bribe?
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...

You're enjoying this, aren't you?
 
Smiles and Cries

Smiles and Cries

Member
grandjedi6 said:
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD JUST ANNOUNCE IT ALREADY OBAMA. I DON'T CARE WHO YOU PICK ANYMORE, IT COULD BE CHEEBS FOR ALL I CARE! JUST ANNOUNCE!
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he really needs to do it the media is not running anything but this right now asRussia and Poland shield shit is about to hit the fan
 
J

JayDubya

Banned
Frank the Great said:
No, but if the oil industry CEOs get together and donate $5 million to McCain, then yeah, it is.
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Why?

A "bribe," by both denotation and connotation, implies something sinister, a cover-up, hush money, obligations, etc.

Each person makes their own individual voluntary donations to candidates they like based on what they can afford. The mere quantity involved does not inherently imply wrongdoing.
 
F

Frank the Great

Banned
JayDubya said:
Why?

A "bribe," by both denotation and connotation, implies something sinister, a cover-up, hush money, obligations, etc.

Each person makes their own individual voluntary donations to candidates they like based on what they can afford. The mere quantity involved does not inherently imply wrongdoing.
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Are you really this dense? Or are you just playing with us?
 
E

eznark

Banned
grandjedi6 said:
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD JUST ANNOUNCE IT ALREADY OBAMA. I DON'T CARE WHO YOU PICK ANYMORE, IT COULD BE CHEEBS FOR ALL I CARE! JUST ANNOUNCE!
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Lieberman
Are you really this dense? Or are you just playing with us?
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are you stalling because you are eventually going to answer, or hurling insults due to a lack of said answer?
 
J

JayDubya

Banned
Frank the Great said:
Are you really this dense? Or are you just playing with us?
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Are you really this dense?

A bribe is and should be illegal. Donating money in and of itself is innocuous.

Bribery and fraud and corruption should be punished but you can't just reasonably say any donation over a certain mount just has to be a bribe because.
 
S

speculawyer

Member
JayDubya said:
When I donated $50 to Ron Paul's campaign (what we could afford) or you donate whatever it is you have to Obama, was that a bribe? Maybe just a little bribe?
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Yes! Yes, it is a bribe . . . a legal bribe. And yes, it is a little bribe. With thousands of little bribes from thousands of different people, it reduces the power . . . which of these little people do you do things for? What happens when they have conflicting requests?

But if you allow unlimited donations, you are going listen to the people that give you the huge bribe. So the 1-person, 1-vote thing becomes destroyed by money. It is mind boggling that you cannot see this would end up as a disaster. You are advocating corruption.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
Smiles and Cries said:
he really needs to do it the media is not running anything but this right now asRussia and Poland shield shit is about to hit the fan
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You're acting as if it's a bad thing.

Letting slip that you're announcing this week meant it led front pages of newspapers today, it'll get heavy news coverage tomorrow, same on friday, the announcement will be texted friday, in time to hit the weekend shows/newspapers, the big hullabaloo on Saturday will provide more fodder, and BAM! The convention on Monday.
 
D

Deus Ex Machina

Member
Cheebs said:
Who are your second and third?
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Kathleen Sebelius, Tim Kaine, Bill Richardson, Ted Strickland, Brian Schweitzer, Ed Rendell, Janet Napolitano, and Tom Vilsack are all outside-the-beltway VP choices who have interesting qualifications who would reinforce the "change" message and who would help Obama win in different states or regions.
 
E

eznark

Banned
speculawyer said:
Yes! Yes, it is a bribe . . . a legal bribe. And yes, it is a little bribe. With thousands of little bribes from thousands of different people, it reduces the power . . . which of these little people do you do things for? What happens when they have conflicting requests?

But if you allow unlimited donations, you are going listen to the people that give you the huge bribe. So the 1-person, 1-vote thing becomes destroyed by money. It is mind boggling that you cannot see this would end up as a disaster. You are advocating corruption.
Click to expand...

when you piecemeal ideologies, bad things can happen.

However, in a world where the market was truly unfettered by government intervention, bribery would be pointless as the government would be virtually powerless to help you make a return on the investment.
 
J

JayDubya

Banned
speculawyer said:
Yes! Yes, it is a bribe . . . a legal bribe. And yes, it is a little bribe. With thousands of little bribes from thousands of different people, it reduces the power . . . which of these little people do you do things for? What happens when they have conflicting requests?

But if you allow unlimited donations, you are going listen to the people that give you the huge bribe. So the 1-person, 1-vote thing becomes destroyed by money. It is mind boggling that you cannot see this would end up as a disaster. You are advocating corruption.
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Of course I'm not, and of course it isn't! I suggest you look up the definition of "bribe," then.

Also, this should be fun - I can only afford to give $50. Other people can give $2400. That's not fair. Those people can achieve more of an implied obligation from their candidate.

I can't keep up with that. Doesn't my vote matter? The campaign finance laws need to restrict everyone else to $50 per person.
 
S

speculawyer

Member
JayDubya said:
Of course I'm not, and of course it isn't! I suggest you look up the definition of "bribe," then.
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bribe (brb)
n.
1. Something, such as money or a favor, offered or given to a person in a position of trust to influence that person's views or conduct.
2. Something serving to influence or persuade.
v. bribed, brib·ing, bribes
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bribe

Jesus H Christ . . . this is why people mock 'Libertopians'.
 
F

Frank the Great

Banned
bribe–noun
1. money or any other valuable consideration given or promised with a view to corrupting the behavior of a person, esp. in that person's performance as an athlete, public official, etc.
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This is exactly what happens in politics. I can't even fathom how someone can just disbelieve that political corruption like this occurs and should be unregulated, especially when it is so rampant as it is today. I can not wrap my head around this at all.

I'm going out.
 
T

thekad

Banned
JayDubya said:
Why?

A "bribe," by both denotation and connotation, implies something sinister, a cover-up, hush money, obligations, etc.

Each person makes their own individual voluntary donations to candidates they like based on what they can afford. The mere quantity involved does not inherently imply wrongdoing.
Click to expand...

Even if we were to assume that these CEOs donating millions to their preferred candidate did so simply out of the kindness of their hearts, it would, like Hitokage already explained, pretty much throw out the basic One Man, One Vote foundation America was founded on. I know you don't give a shit about the "little people," but surely you can understand that much.
 
J

JayDubya

Banned
speculawyer said:
Jesus H Christ . . . this is why people mock 'Libertopians'.
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I don't see why you should care.

thekad said:
Even if we were to assume that these CEOs donating millions to their preferred candidate did so simply out of the kindness of their hearts, it would, like Hitokage already explained, pretty much throw out the basic One Man, One Vote foundation America was founded on. I know you don't give a shit about the "little people," but surely you can understand that much.
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Have I somehow missed the memo such that there's now a vote fee and you can just get back in line and vote again if you keep paying?

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure you're not making a lick of sense. One person, one vote is not undermined by what is arbitrarily determined to be large voluntary donations.
 
D

Deus Ex Machina

Member
Unity Call: "Stephanie Tubbs Jones may be taken off life support"

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news...may-be-taken-off-life-support-2008-08-20.html
After suffering a massive aneurysm while behind the wheel Tuesday night in Cleveland, Rep. Stephanie Tubbs Jones (D-Ohio) is in grave condition and may be taken off of life support as early as this afternoon, according to WOIO in Cleveland. Tubbs Jones was “for all intents and purposes dead when they brought her into the hospital” Tuesday night, the station reported in a breaking news update that interrupted regular morning programming.
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large_jones.jpg


This sad news about a strong Democrat who was key figure in our primary battles really hit me hard as a sobering reminder of how suddenly life can render our internecine spats secondary.
 
S

speculawyer

Member
eznark said:
when you piecemeal ideologies, bad things can happen.

However, in a world where the market was truly unfettered by government intervention, bribery would be pointless as the government would be virtually powerless to help you make a return on the investment.
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Are you kidding? Lobbyists and campaign donations are among the best investments companies & rich individuals can make. They make HUGE returns on their investments with massive tax cuts, regulations removals, government contracts, and even government subsidies.
 
M

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
JD: What about keeping campaign finance laws in place until we reach libertopia?

IIRC you were in favor of limiting immigration while the welfare state was in place. The argument being that immigration isn't bad in and of itself but letting immigrants unfairly leech taxpayer money would be.

Same logic here. Nothing wrong with unlimited use of money to spread a political message during a campaign, except when the government swings big regulatory and tax sticks. Cause right now that just rewards rich rent-seekers who are angling for billion dollar grants from the fed.
 
W

woeds

Member
I think the debates will be the deciding factor. If McCain gives the same stump/POW answers he did at the Warren debate and people once again buy it, then I think Obama will have a very tough time come November.
 
D

Diablos

Member
woeds said:
I think the debates will be the deciding factor. If McCain gives the same stump/POW answers he did at the Warren debate and people once again buy it, then I think Obama will have a very tough time come November.
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He'll keep using it until people stop buying it. So if they never stop, I expect McCain to stump in the same ways until election day.
 
E

eznark

Banned
speculawyer said:
Are you kidding? Lobbyists and campaign donations are among the best investments companies & rich individuals can make. They make HUGE returns on their investments with massive tax cuts, regulations removals, government contracts, and even government subsidies.
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so you missed the part about an unfettered economy

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NO NO NO NO!
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that's what I was looking for!
 
S

speculawyer

Member
JayDubya said:
I don't see why you should care.
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This is where you and I differ. I'd like to see Libertarians as a viable 3rd party. One that advocates a lot of freedom strongly protects civil rights but mandates government fiscal responsibility.

Your positions tend to be these 'out there' absolutist views that the Libertarian party is merely some academic theoretical viewpoint . . . one that could never be implemented because people won't ever vote for it. (And if they did, it would become a massive failure, IMHO.)

So yeah, my Libertarian views are not absolutist at all. I'm pragmatic and live in the real world. My Libertarian views certainly are not way out there . . . they are different from the existing (very successful) parties by not huge margins so they are in the realm of possibility.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
Thank god Obama polled below McCain, that means a resurgence of some of the PUMA trolls on various websites. I've missed them and their "OBAMA NEEDS TO STOP BEING SO ELITIST AND PICK HILLARY BECAUSE SHE DESERVES IT!" arguments.
 
T

The Librarian

Banned
Agent Icebeezy said:
All we can hope for is for the debator to keep McCain on the questions and not go off on a tangent and stump.
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"McCain, what is your policy on America's current energy crisis."

"Well, let me tell you a POW story..."

"Dammit, McCain!"
 
E

eznark

Banned
Agent Icebeezy said:
All we can hope for is for the debator to keep McCain on the questions and not go off on a tangent and stump.
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Oh all the choices I would have gone Bayh probably...man GAF is going to hate him.

What does that even mean? Anarchy? Zero regulations? That would make things even worse!
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no regulations on capitalism does not equal anarchy.
 
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