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PoliGAF Thread of First Debate Election 2008 - GAF doesn't know shit

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D

Deku

Banned
worldrunover said:
I think your assumption of number 1 is a little off.
Click to expand...
I've been busy with work but watched snippets of the news and saw reports of portests and a poll showing only ~40% of americans support the bailout.
 
P

pxleyes

Banned
"McCain plane expected to take off any moment"

Tucker is spewing his bullshit on fox news. He's honestly trying to blame Obama for partisanship.
 
D

Deleted member 20415

Unconfirmed Member
Deku said:
I've been busy with work but watched snippets of the news and saw reports of portests and a poll showing only ~40% of americans support the bailout.
Click to expand...
I haven't met a single person that thinks it's a good idea.

I'm a dyed blue Democrat and I think it's a terrible idea.
 
T

Tim-E

Member
syllogism said:
Now Rasmussen has Obama up by 5 in Virginia

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub.../election_2008_virginia_presidential_election
Click to expand...


259k2fp.gif
 
B

BenjaminBirdie

Banned
Deku said:
I'm talking about the public being against bailing out wall street, the entire concept of it and the protests it has spawned so far.

If McCain can paint himself as the person who stopped it, even if the market tanks, he might still get major points.

The public mood appears to be nearing that of retribution against wall street at this point and they would probably celebrate markets going down irregardless of impacts to them in the short term, and the election is a little over a month away, possibly not enough time for the effects of non bailout to be felt.

This should concern all obama supporters that the gambit may actually work even if McCain is losing tactical battles.
Click to expand...

I simply cannot rationally get past that underlined point.

We're not talking about fatcat stockholders. We're talking about Retirement Funds, Student Loans, Mortgages, and so on and so on whose affects would be felt as soon as September 31, 2008 when all those things get rebilled or reaccessed for another month and most likely much sooner than that.
 
S

Sharp

Member
McCain isn't actually a bad debater. It certainly isn't going to be a massacre like the Biden - Palin debate will be (if McCain can't manage to get out of it anyway). Obama will have to be very careful if he wants to benefit from this.
 
E

Evlar

Banned
Deku said:
I'm talking about the public being against bailing out wall street, the entire concept of it and the protests it has spawned so far.

If McCain can paint himself as the person who stopped it, even if the market tanks, he might still get major points.

The public mood appears to be nearing that of retribution against wall street at this point and they would probably celebrate markets going down irregardless of impacts to them in the short term, and the election is a little over a month away, possibly not enough time for the effects of non bailout to be felt.

This should concern all obama supporters that the gambit may actually work even if McCain is losing tactical battles.
Click to expand...
Most of the "business" Republicans would bail. However it looks like they have less and less control over the rank-and-file of the party. The idiot parade may continue on without them. Does Wall Street have any sizeable constituency inside the GOP left?
 
A

artredis1980

Banned
Poll: Majority of Americans against $700b bailout

An Associated Press-Knowledge Networks poll shows little public support for President Bush's proposed $700 billion federal bailout of the financial industry.

Only 30 percent say they support Bush's package. The president says the bailout is urgently needed, but it has run aground after House Republicans rebelled. Another 45 percent oppose Bush's plan, while 25 percent are unsure. There is solid opposition among Republicans, Democrats and independents.

The same survey shows little expectation a bailout will work. It also shows most want Friday night's presidential debate to go on as scheduled. Republican candidate John McCain said Friday he would attend, after initially saying he wouldn't unless agreement was reached on a rescue plan.
Click to expand...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080926/ap_on_el_pr/ap_poll_financial_meltdown
 
B

BenjaminBirdie

Banned
Sharp said:
McCain isn't actually a bad debater. It certainly isn't going to be a massacre like the Biden - Palin debate will be (if McCain can't manage to get out of it anyway). Obama will have to be very careful if he wants to benefit from this.
Click to expand...

It's like any other debate and Obama by no means has a lock on it at all. The key factor is this hole McCain has now dug himself and the fact that even a world class performance tonight will still most likely not be able to clear the hurdle that the past three days has set for him.
 
B

Beer Monkey

Member
People with lots of money in 401k/IRA really need to study the economy and market more closely. I converted all my retirement holdings to cash/tbills (while still leaving the funds in the retirement account) months ago. This week I put a ton of IRA into Swiss Francs. When they tell you to stick it in and forget about it, DON'T LISTEN.
 
A

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
the entire problem is that this most recent stage of the crisis in large part hasn't yet reverberated to "main street." oh but it will :lol
 
D

Deku

Banned
BenjaminBirdie said:
I simply cannot rationally get past that underlined point.

We're not talking about fatcat stockholders. We're talking about Retirement Funds, Student Loans, Mortgages, and so on and so on whose affects would be felt as soon as September 31, 2008 when all those things get rebilled or reaccessed for another month and most likely much sooner than that.
Click to expand...

Do you support the bailout?

I'm not trying to be contrarian or to stir the pot i want Obama to win. I think that the public is opposed to the bailout and of any bailoutof wall street in general in principle.

If Mccain stops it won't he get points? Should the dems be putting forward their own plan that bails out home owners instead? I just find the optics of it being very bad for Pelosi and it may rub off on Obama if they just go along with Bushs' plan even with amendments. The public won't care for it, they'll just see it as the dems and obama supporting a bailout of wall street and McCain can sell it as such in his attack ads.

I'm surprised no one is concerned or maybe i just don't get it. i wish its the latter quite frankly.
 
B

BenjaminBirdie

Banned
Deku said:
Do you support the bailout?

I'm not trying to be contrarian or to stir the pot i want Obama to win. I think that the public is opposed to the bailout and of any bailoutof wall street in general in principle.

If Mccain stops it won't he get points? Should the dems be putting forward their own plan that bails out home owners instead? I just find the optics of it being very bad for Pelosi and it may rub off on Obama if they just go along with Bushs' plan even with amendments. The public won't care for it, they'll just see it as the dems and obama supporting a bailout of wall street and McCain can sell it as such in his attack ads.

I'm surprised no one is concerned or maybe i just don't get it. i wish its the latter quite frankly.
Click to expand...

I believe the same thing Obama does. Our options are bad and worse. I don't support the concept of a bailout. But we have no choice.
 
G

gkryhewy

Member
THere's a big opportunity tonight for the candidate who can better explain what's going on, and who would win and lose with a bipartisan bailout.

People are generally opposed, but they also generally don't understand what's happening. Problem is that none of the experts seem to completely understand either.
 
A

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
i support the concept of like let's cut capital gains a few points also deley tax day for corporations by several days push it back. private market solution i will leave it to mccain to work out all the complicated financial details
 
C

Cheebs

Member
Such a long way we've come. I remember posting a topic here at gaf in Nov. of 2006 speculating that I think Obama may run for President. And look where we are now...
 
mckmas8808

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Deku said:
Do you support the bailout?

I'm not trying to be contrarian or to stir the pot i want Obama to win. I think that the public is opposed to the bailout and of any bailoutof wall street in general in principle.

If Mccain stops it won't he get points? Should the dems be putting forward their own plan that bails out home owners instead? I just find the optics of it being very bad for Pelosi and it may rub off on Obama if they just go along with Bushs' plan even with amendments. The public won't care for it, they'll just see it as the dems and obama supporting a bailout of wall street and McCain can sell it as such in his attack ads.

I'm surprised no one is concerned or maybe i just don't get it. i wish its the latter quite frankly.
Click to expand...


Because most of the public doesn't really know how bad things really can get.
 
A

avaya

Member
artredis1980 said:
Poll: Majority of Americans against $700b bailout



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080926/ap_on_el_pr/ap_poll_financial_meltdown
Click to expand...

Most people are against things they can not understand.

How much more clearer can you get than:

You will lose your job
You will lose your savings
You will not be able to find another job
You will be in negative equity
You will not be able to get a credit card
The credit cards you have will have skyrocketing APRs
You will not be able to get a car loan
You will not be able to send your kids to college
 
RubxQub

RubxQub

φίλω ἐξεχέγλουτον καί ψευδολόγον οὖκ εἰπόν
AstroLad said:
i support the concept of like let's cut capital gains a few points also deley tax day for corporations by several days push it back. private market solution i will leave it to mccain to work out all the complicated financial details
Click to expand...
Finally someone who fucking gets it.

Thank you.
 
P

PrivateWHudson

Member
BenjaminBirdie said:
I simply cannot rationally get past that underlined point.

We're not talking about fatcat stockholders. We're talking about Retirement Funds, Student Loans, Mortgages, and so on and so on whose affects would be felt as soon as September 31, 2008 when all those things get rebilled or reaccessed for another month and most likely much sooner than that.
Click to expand...

It's pretty easy if you think about it.

So the market tanks...whatever.

(anecdotal) I spoke with my dad who lives and is very active in a retirement community (The Villages, FL) and EVERYONE has already pulled out of the stock market and put their money into conventional savings. Everyone who isn't retired knows that it will go back up someday. They have the patience to punish the greedy.

Loans/Mortgages... Once again, I'll bet the majority of Americans that already have such a loan have a fixed rate. The ones that don't have a fixed rate...Fuck those greedy bastards. The ones who want to get a loan will just wait it out and not buy a new house until this blows over.
 
B

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
BenjaminBirdie said:
It's like any other debate and Obama by no means has a lock on it at all. The key factor is this hole McCain has now dug himself and the fact that even a world class performance tonight will still most likely not be able to clear the hurdle that the past three days has set for him.
Click to expand...

Exactly this. No one here is claiming Obama will debate the scars off Johnny's face but he doesn't really have to at this point. McCain's pointless grandstanding, back-tracking, flip-flopping and general silliness the last few days is all the slack Obama needs. Not that he really needs it though.
 
R

ronito

Member
BenjaminBirdie said:
I believe the same thing Obama does. Our options are bad and worse. I don't support the concept of a bailout. But we have no choice.
Click to expand...
I just have to ask the simple question. If you didn't get your paycheck because the company you work for couldn't get credit would you be ok with that? If so, then you can be against the bailout, if not then you're for. I'm against the bailout for me personally. But I'm willing to take that risk. Most people that I talk to about this call me a libertarian for it. But then there are the others that are really against it, when I bring up the paycheck scenario suddenly they're all for it.
 
B

BenjaminBirdie

Banned
PrivateWHudson said:
It's pretty easy if you think about it.

So the market tanks...whatever.

(anecdotal) I spoke with my dad who lives and is very active in a retirement community (The Villages, FL) and EVERYONE has already pulled out of the stock market and put their money into conventional savings. Everyone who isn't retired knows that it will go back up someday. They have the patience to punish the greedy.

Loans/Mortgages... Once again, I'll bet the majority of Americans that already have such a loan have a fixed rate. The ones that don't have a fixed rate...Fuck those greedy bastards. The ones who want to get a loan will just wait it out and not buy a new house until this blows over.
Click to expand...

And students in college who depend on loans to supplement the best income they can manage by being students and working simultaneously? You've cited two examples. How about payroll?
 
E

Evlar

Banned
avaya said:
Most people are against things they can not understand.

How much more clearer can you get than:

You will lose your job
You will lose your savings
You will not be able to find another job
You will be in negative equity
You will not be able to get a credit card
The credit cards you have will have skyrocketing APRs
You will not be able to get a car loan
You will not be able to send your kids to college
Click to expand...
Stop being such a Debbie Downer! Financial fearmongering! You're acting like our spending habits and lifestyles aren't indefinitely sustainable! Ha ha!
 
G

gkryhewy

Member
PrivateWHudson said:
It's pretty easy if you think about it.

So the market tanks...whatever.

(anecdotal) I spoke with my dad who lives and is very active in a retirement community (The Villages, FL) and EVERYONE has already pulled out of the stock market and put their money into conventional savings. Everyone who isn't retired knows that it will go back up someday. They have the patience to punish the greedy.

Loans/Mortgages... Once again, I'll bet the majority of Americans that already have such a loan have a fixed rate. The ones that don't have a fixed rate...Fuck those greedy bastards. The ones who want to get a loan will just wait it out and not buy a new house until this blows over.
Click to expand...

This is the common, but misinformed, view.

ronito said:
I just have to ask the simple question. If you didn't get your paycheck because the company you work for couldn't get credit would you be ok with that? If so, then you can be against the bailout, if not then you're for. I'm against the bailout for me personally. But I'm willing to take that risk. Most people that I talk to about this call me a libertarian for it. But then there are the others that are really against it, when I bring up the paycheck scenario suddenly they're all for it.
Click to expand...

This.
 
B

BenjaminBirdie

Banned
AstroLad said:
i support the concept of like let's cut capital gains a few points also deley tax day for corporations by several days push it back. private market solution i will leave it to mccain to work out all the complicated financial details
Click to expand...

Watch out, Steve Youngblood. The Ruler's back.

;D
 
G

gkryhewy

Member
This is what McCain said when he "suspended" his campaign:

MCCAIN: America this week faces an historic crisis in our financial system. We must pass legislation to address this crisis. If we do not, credit will dry up, with devastating consequences for our economy. People will no longer be able to buy homes and their life savings will be at stake. Businesses will not have enough money to pay their employees. If we do not act, ever corner of our country will be impacted. We cannot allow this to happen.
....
I am confident that before the markets open on Monday we can achieve consensus on legislation that will stabilize our financial markets, protect taxpayers and homeowners, and earn the confidence of the American people.
Click to expand...

He cannot be this alarmist, and then be on the side of stopping the deal.
 
W

WickedAngel

Banned
Deku said:
Do you support the bailout?

I'm not trying to be contrarian or to stir the pot i want Obama to win. I think that the public is opposed to the bailout and of any bailoutof wall street in general in principle.

If Mccain stops it won't he get points? Should the dems be putting forward their own plan that bails out home owners instead? I just find the optics of it being very bad for Pelosi and it may rub off on Obama if they just go along with Bushs' plan even with amendments. The public won't care for it, they'll just see it as the dems and obama supporting a bailout of wall street and McCain can sell it as such in his attack ads.

I'm surprised no one is concerned or maybe i just don't get it. i wish its the latter quite frankly.
Click to expand...

He went to Washington under the guise of getting something done and only managed to torpedo the one viable solution that was on the table. That House proposal was a complete farce and will infuriate Americans (Even ignorant ones) even more. People don't like the idea of Wall Street "winning" but they don't like the idea of giving them tax breaks and less regulation in a market that is failing because of deregulation to begin with.

gkrykewy said:
This is what McCain said when he "suspended" his campaign:



He cannot be this alarmist, and then be on the side of stopping the deal.
Click to expand...

Exactly. He hasn't had a single consistant flow of logic in this entire week. He has came off as looking inconsistant, ineffective, and contradictory.
 
S

soul creator

Member
I imagine the reason why the public is against it is because of how it's framed. Right now, everyone strictly sees the plan as "give 700 billion dollars to wall street" (which was essentially that initial 3 page plan). Of course people would be against that.

As I understand it, the original 3-page Paulson plan was already discarded and talks were moving forward on a plan where there were more protections for "Main Street" and would keep the banking system intact (and people's retirements, small business credit lines, etc.) and potentially having profits come back to the government in the future. Or something. I think this is what Dodd's plan was moving towards.

If the question is framed the latter way, I would imagine that most people would be a bit more hesitant to "hate" it. But everyone is still interpreting the "bailout" in the original 3-page Paulson plan sense, which was gotten rid of already. I think.
 
P

PrivateWHudson

Member
BenjaminBirdie said:
And students in college who depend on loans to supplement the best income they can manage by being students and working simultaneously? You've cited two examples. How about payroll?
Click to expand...

Historically, they don't vote anyway. Perhaps when no-one can get a loan for college, the cost will come down. Empty rooms aren't doing them any good.

What about payroll? The people want to punish the banks and Wallstreet.
 
G

gkryhewy

Member
PrivateWHudson said:
Historically, they don't vote anyway. Perhaps when no-one can get a loan for college, the cost will come down. Empty rooms aren't doing them any good.

What about payroll? The people want to punish the banks and Wallstreet.
Click to expand...

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