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PoliGAF Thread of First Debate Election 2008 - GAF doesn't know shit

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E

Evlar

Banned
TomServo said:
I'm an engineer in an old-school discipline. I've always worked for companies that produce tangible products first, with service and consulting as gravy.

Like I said earlier, we borrow, but it's for long term capital improvements. Even on long product cycles there are significant cash reserves.
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True, in your industry (like mine) running off borrowed capital seems crazy. Consider something like tech startups though- the whole company may operate off borrowed cash for years. That's supposedly the parts of the economy that are the most innovative. They cannot function at all without credit.
 
R

ronito

Member
PrivateWHudson said:
:D I'm just playing "average voter" to help show you guys why a bailout is very unpopular.
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Of course it's unpopular. I hate it. Like I said before I'm against it. But at least I'm against it with full knowledge of what will most likely happen. The "average voter" would shoot it down and then when they can't get more credit, or they get laid off, or they don't get paid would be like "Hey! wat happen?!!"

You can be against it, I am. But don't keep any pretense that things will be alright if it doesn't happen.

edit: TomServo, so what do you think would happen to your company if they had no money for new capital improvements?
 
P

painey

Member
I had a dream that they didnt go ahead with the bailout and the dollar fell to 3:1 to the £ and I went to the highstreet currency exchange and walked out with $30,000 in my arms
 
A

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
plenty plenty plenty of companies use and rely upon companies that use short-term cp to finance short-term expenses such as payroll. if the short-term credit markets completely die bye bye u.s. doesn't matter if your company finances payroll with cash stored under the bed.
 
X

Xeke

Banned
TomServo said:
I wouldn't have accepted a job with them in the first place. That's like buying a ticket on the Titanic after it's hit the iceberg.

Seriously, is this that common? Making payroll with borrowed funds?

EDIT:



Good grief. I've seen small business startups dependent on startup capital to get the ball rolling, but persisting on revolving credit? We're in worse shape than I thought.
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Where the hell do you work?:lol
 
E

Evlar

Banned
Krugman's blog post is worth pasting in its entirety:
Paul Krugman said:
Demolition accomplished
A few more thoughts about the incredible scene described in today’s Times (great reporting, by the way):

In the Roosevelt Room after the session, the Treasury secretary, Henry M. Paulson Jr., literally bent down on one knee as he pleaded with Nancy Pelosi, the House Speaker, not to “blow it up” by withdrawing her party’s support for the package over what Ms. Pelosi derided as a Republican betrayal.

“I didn’t know you were Catholic,” Ms. Pelosi said, a wry reference to Mr. Paulson’s kneeling, according to someone who observed the exchange. She went on: “It’s not me blowing this up, it’s the Republicans.”

Mr. Paulson sighed. “I know. I know.”

How did we get to this point? It’s the culmination of many past betrayals.

First of all, we have the Republican Study Committee blowing things up with a complete nonsense proposal — solving the crisis with a holiday on capital gains taxes. How is that possible? Well, if a party runs on economic nonsense for 25 years, eventually many of its foot soldiers will be people who actually believe the nonsense.

More specifically, though, the failure to get a deal reflects the betrayals of the Bush years. Democrats weren’t going to trust Henry Paulson, because behind him they see the ghost of Colin Powell (and Paulson’s “all your bailout are belong to me” proposal, aside from being bad economics, showed an incredible tone-deafness.)

And after the way the Bushies and their allies double-crossed the Democrats again and again in the aftermath of 9/11 — demand national unity, then accuse you of being soft on terrorists anyway — there’s no way Pelosi and Reed will do the responsible but unpopular thing unless the Republicans agree to share ownership.

So what we now have is non-functional government in the face of a major crisis, because Congress includes a quorum of crazies and nobody trusts the White House an inch.

As a friend said last night, we’ve become a banana republic with nukes.
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Well said, and scary as hell.
 
A

artredis1980

Banned
Mason said:
Personally, I think the McCain campaign thought out all the scenarios before deciding to do this 'suspension' thing. I don't have time to list them all out because I have to head to class soon, but as far as just the debate goes:

1) The bailout proposal passes by Friday (a day or so after McCain gets there) and he takes credit for it and heads to the debate as a hero.

2) The bailout proposal doesn't pass by Friday, but around noon, McCain declares enough progress has been made that he will go through with the debate.

Either way, tons of publicity for him and he gets to act like he did something while Barack 'did nothing'. And it's worked. He's been the headline the past 2 days. Luckily his ratings are tanking, but he still got the attention he wanted.
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how has it worked when every news outlet has stated McCain was the one that hindered the democratic congress plan? and wasnt it Obama who did most of the talking during the WH meeting while McCain said nothing? what are you on?
 
W

woxel1

Member
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/09/26/opinion/26suboped_ready.html

26opart_xlarge.jpg
 
E

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
Swiss investor Marc Faber, known for a long track record of good calls (he was a commodities bull until late this spring, for instance, when he reversed his view) and a fine grasp of financial markets history, confirms the estimate earlier in the week by Ken Ohmae that the US needs a salvage operation much bigger than the one envisaged by the Treasury plan, and the damage may come to $5 trillion:

Marc Faber, managing director of Marc Faber Ltd. in Hong Kong, said the U.S. government's rescue package for the financial system may require as much as $5 trillion, seven times the amount Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson has requested....

``The $700 billion is really nothing,'' Faber said in a television interview. ``The treasury is just giving out this figure when the end figure may be $5 trillion.''...

``The decline in home prices of 20 percent is a relatively minor decline so far and it has created so many problems,'' Faber added. ``The US is in much worse shape'' than Japan was when its stock market crash ushered in a decade-long slump in 1990.
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http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/marc-faber-us-needs-as-much-as-5.html
 
W

WrathOfOtaibah

Banned
McCain is returning to the debate because he has the upper hand in this, image wise.

Most people are NOT going to know about McCain's proposal. All they know is that McCain is against the bailout (70% of Americans are currently) and even if he does have to explain, Americans don't know what a capital gains tax is. All they know is that the bailout is bad because taxes are bad.

So I expect every answer coming from McCain to be variants of "bailouts are bad because taxes are bad." Then he will make Obama side with the pro-bailout, pro-tax bill.
 
E

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
The Experiment said:
McCain is returning to the debate because he has the upper hand in this, image wise.

Most people are NOT going to know about McCain's proposal. All they know is that McCain is against the bailout (70% of Americans are currently) and even if he does have to explain, Americans don't know what a capital gains tax is. All they know is that the bailout is bad because taxes are bad.

So I expect every answer coming from McCain to be variants of "bailouts are bad because taxes are bad." Then he will make Obama side with the pro-bailout, pro-tax bill.
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Been saying that since yesterday, people said I was crazy. And I said two days ago that McCain would oppose the bailout, that's why he was going to Washington, to put Obama FOR it and himself against it, and reap the popularity of this action. Again I was told I was a crazy "gov did 911" nut.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
Huh, there must've been just one bad day for Obama in Gallup's polling for some reason, that's a bizarre drop and big gain.
 
RubxQub

RubxQub

φίλω ἐξεχέγλουτον καί ψευδολόγον οὖκ εἰπόν
syllogism said:
Gallup 48 Obama 45 mccain
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Interesting...

Now if that trend continues I'll cool off on my "Americans are idiots" argument.

Tomorrow's numbers should be much more interesting.
 
D

Drek

Member
The Experiment said:
McCain is returning to the debate because he has the upper hand in this, image wise.

Most people are NOT going to know about McCain's proposal. All they know is that McCain is against the bailout (70% of Americans are currently) and even if he does have to explain, Americans don't know what a capital gains tax is. All they know is that the bailout is bad because taxes are bad.

So I expect every answer coming from McCain to be variants of "bailouts are bad because taxes are bad." Then he will make Obama side with the pro-bailout, pro-tax bill.
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I personally think the polling data on the American opinion on the bailout is bullshit.

People aren't happy about it, and they want nothing to do with the original plan (which they have been polled on). But the new plan is a much easier sell.
 
G

gkryhewy

Member
Ether_Snake said:
Been saying that since yesterday, people said I was crazy. And I said two days ago that McCain would oppose the bailout, that's why he was going to Washington, to put Obama FOR it and himself against it, and reap the popularity of this action. Again I told I was a crazy "gov did 911" nut.
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You are crazy, but so is the McCain campaign.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
Ether_Snake said:
Been saying that since yesterday, people said I was crazy. And I said two days ago that McCain would oppose the bailout, that's why he was going to Washington, to put Obama FOR it and himself against it, and reap the popularity of this action. Again I told I was a crazy "gov did 911" nut.
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But McCain hasn't come out AGAINST the bailout. All he's done is said "A bailout is necessary!" and then torpedoed it.:lol
 
T

thefit

Member
Maybe now McCain can not only claim he is a POW but untill today also an MIA.

It's no wonder that during the savings and loan scandal he was given the nickname "chiken shit McCain" because he was so scared for himself that he couldn't commit to backing up his pals. What you saw yesterday at that meeting is genuine McCain. Inaction.
 
G

gkryhewy

Member
Tamanon said:
But McCain hasn't come out AGAINST the bailout. All he's done is said "A bailout is necessary otherwise the world will end Monday!" and then torpedoed it.:lol
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fixed.

McCain as an agent of the apocalypse.... hmmm... Palin....
 
O

Outdoor Miner

Member
Drek said:
I personally think the polling data on the American opinion on the bailout is bullshit.

People aren't happy about it, and they want nothing to do with the original plan (which they have been polled on). But the new plan is a much easier sell.
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Agreed. The bailout plan involving limitations on CEO compensation and assistance to struggling homeowners will be better received.

All Obama has to do tonight is point out the bailout plan McCain produced involves corporate tax breaks and FURTHER deregulation.
 
X

Xeke

Banned
RubxQub said:
Interesting...

Now if that trend continues I'll cool off on my "Americans are idiots" argument.

Tomorrow's numbers should be much more interesting.
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It's a national tracking poll, I'd rather you cool off any argument based off of it.
 
C

CharlieDigital

Banned
BenjaminBirdie said:
THANK YOU.

How is no one seeing this?
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We see it, but the point is how the masses perceive it. They may not even know he backed a substantially less comprehensive option that had no protection for taxpayers and offers what amounts to the second coming of AIG-like levels of fail.
 
B

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
Ether_Snake said:
Been saying that since yesterday, people said I was crazy. And I said two days ago that McCain would oppose the bailout, that's why he was going to Washington, to put Obama FOR it and himself against it, and reap the popularity of this action. Again I was told I was a crazy "gov did 911" nut.
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Yeah, I'd say you're pretty crazy if you think McCain looks like anything but a grandstanding, incoherent old man that goes back on his word. He has no hand to speak of. It doesn't exist. He's been bumbling about, looking pretty damn hypocritical while doing so, and I'm thinking most people--not rabid fans or detractors--see his stunt for what it is: a whole lotta nothing.

Ain't no way in hell people are thinking all of a sudden he's champion of the little man.
 
W

WrathOfOtaibah

Banned
Drek said:
I personally think the polling data on the American opinion on the bailout is bullshit.

People aren't happy about it, and they want nothing to do with the original plan (which they have been polled on). But the new plan is a much easier sell.
Click to expand...

The thing is that for a couple decades, people have the concept drilled into their heads that taxes are bad, no matter what. The reason is that taxes stifle things. The bailout bill by contrast has regulation (regulation = no-no) and a financial bailout, which means taxes will have to be levied to pay it off, eventually. Two strikes.

So even if McCain had to explain what his proposal was, it will make sense to the people that have no financial knowledge. Since taxes are almost automatically bad, McCain's solution to get rid of a tax will work. The financial community and those that know what is going on will laugh at it or complain about it but that is probably the 30% that favor the bailout.

The 70% will be responding very positively to McCain's debate answers tonight when he claims that the financial markets are in bad shape because it is overtaxed and over regulated.
 
E

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
Tamanon said:
But McCain hasn't come out AGAINST the bailout. All he's done is said "A bailout is necessary!" and then torpedoed it.:lol
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Torpedoed it = against it. And he will make his case tonight. He's keeping his cards to himself, and as such forcing Oabam to either defend the "evil" bailout, stand against it and propose his own (won't do that), or agree to McCain's.
 
S

soul creator

Member
the Palin interview, Rick Davis' lobbying, McCain's admitted economic ignorance, and McCain's sliding poll numbers are all missiles being fired directly fired at McCain's campaign.

McCain's behavior the past couple days is essentially him firing chaff all over the fucking place
 
B

BrokenFiction

Member
Has this been posted yet?


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/26/us/politics/26obama.html?scp=1&sq=obama%20cool&st=cse


For Mr. Obama, the financial crisis poses different risks. He wants to appear fired up over the economy, but he has written before about wanting to avoid appearing like a stereotypical angry black man. Unlike Jesse Jackson, the Rev. Al Sharpton and other black leaders whose fulminations could scare white voters, Mr. Obama is not from and of New York, Detroit, or the segregated South; he grew up in Hawaii and Indonesia. To some degree Mr. Obama faces the opposite challenge from fiery black leaders who came before him: Is he too cool for a crisis like this one?
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Whut?
 
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