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Political Divide Splits Relationships — and Thanksgiving, Too

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Just saw this

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Flai

Member
He actually hedged his words saying he assumed some Mexican immigrants were good people. He was clearly saying that the majority of Mexican immigrants were drug dealers and rapists, and calling him out on it isn't divisive, his statements are. Stop trying to give this monster a pass. Hell, he also said a judge couldn't be expected to give a fair ruling because of his Mexican heritage. That is on its fucking face racist. This of course ignores Trump's long history of racism before the election. Jesus, Trump apologists man...

He is a horrible person, I don't deny it. But there is no reasons to twist his words and positions, there is enough things to critize him for without doing that.

Twisting his words generates bias. People read these biased statements all around the mainstream media and forums, and they get a false view of Trumps actual positions. Many people who are against banning all muslims from entering USA would be fine with Trumps current position, that is to suspend immigration from countries with history of exporting terrorism.

And I'm not saying that only Trump's words gets twisted. The right twists Clinton's and Obama's words just as much.
 

br3wnor

Member
Trump has never called Mexicans rapist. Misstatements like this should not be thrown around so much. Doing that divides the country even futher and spouts more hate.

What Trump said, is that many of the people that Mexico "sends" to USA, are people who have problems, such as criminals and rapists. Is that a shitty statement to make? Sure. Is it racist? Maybe. But there is a huge difference between "[all] Mexicans are rapist" and "many of the Mexicans that come [illegally] to USA are criminals or rapists".

Actual Trump Quote:
"When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best," Trump said. "They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

"They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

SOME are good people he ASSUMES. Otherwise, they're rapists. Stop trying to defend this shit, it is a completely racist statement and while he didn't call "all" Mexicans rapists, he painted a huge swath of them with that brush.
 
The statement implies it. If I say "muslims are terrorists", people read that as "[all] muslims are terrorists" even though I don't explicitly say it.

No he said "calling Mexicans rapists". Which is a 100% true statement. Trump did call people who were Mexicans rapists. You're starting a battle over semantics for no reason. No one is going to go, "oh he only generalized illegal Mexicans as rapists and not all Mexicans, that's so much better!"
 
Semantics as a defense for Trump's words :/

It's crazy making don't you think? Suddenly, Trump of all people had a campaign that was incredibly nuanced. We just couldn't see the reality behind his words like his KKK supporters could.

He is a horrible person, I don't deny it. But there is no reasons to twist his words and positions, there is enough things to critize him for without doing that.

No one twisted his words. He's not an orator. His speech patterns are dead simple.
 
Actual Trump Quote:
"When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best," Trump said. "They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

"They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

SOME are good people he ASSUMES. Otherwise, they're rapists. Stop trying to defend this shit, it is a completely racist statement and while he didn't call "all" Mexicans rapists, he painted a huge swath of them with that brush.

Yup, even within this quote he doesn't even make a distinction between Legal and non legal Mexicans.
 

Blader

Member
My entire family, including my wife, voted for Trump. I am the only one who voted Hillary. I plan on having a wonderful thanksgiving and Christmas with them. B..b.b.but how could you have fun with racists?!?!! Because, I am an adult and I realize it was just a fucking election (oh and a vote for a supreme court justice doesn't make you racist). In four years there will be another one, and another four years after that.

This hyperbolic bullshit happens on both sides when they lose. Lots of tantrums and cries of Nazism and Fascism. Then life goes back to normal and the president does absolutely nothing for 4-8 years. Happens every time, yet people seem to act like its always a new concept.

This year is particularly bad because, for a certain subset of Millennials, this is their first loss, and they didn't even get a participation trophy.

The fact that you think the president does absolutely nothing for 4-8 years is pretty telling to me that you don't pay much attention to politics. In which case, of course you'll have no friction in your family!

This year is particularly bad because Trump is a particularly bad person who is now going to be the president.
 
I'm pretty sure my dad voted for him. He's a doctor, so he's not stupid. He's not a racist either, though he's no fan of illegal immigration.
You can be a doctor and have absolutely no clue about politics, sociology, economics or business. You're aware of this, right?

Seriously, all this 'but I know x and he's a smart guy and he voted for x' is bullshit. It happened during Brexit too, I know people who are incredibly intelligent in their fields who have stupid opinions on all sorts of things. If I want financial information, I'll ask my accountant, if I want a check-up I'll go to my doctor and if I want a car repair I'll got to my mechanic. These are aren't suddenly smart at everything because of their qualifications in an - in your case - entirely different field.

The extended is the worse.

My sister in law 's father will hopefully not be at thanksgiving.

He's "retired military" so everyone looks at him as the font of wisdom. "Indians, Pakistanis, whatever, same difference - kill them all, keep the kids from breeding, steal their oil" and "if you invite [my wife's friend] the faggot and his n****er boyfriend to thanksgiving I won't show up" are two recent gems.
Careful, I wouldn't go spouting intolerance like that! You've just gotta grow up, get on with your life and learn to accept the horrible thoughts and feelings people have because we need to unify. (I don't really need to say this is sarcasm but as some in this thread have been close enough to this, I'm being sarcastic).
 

bengraven

Member
The extended is the worse.

My sister in law 's father will hopefully not be at thanksgiving.

He's "retired military" so everyone looks at him as the font of wisdom. "Indians, Pakistanis, whatever, same difference - kill them all, keep the kids from breeding, steal their oil" and "if you invite [my wife's friend] the faggot and his n****er boyfriend to thanksgiving I won't show up" are two recent gems.
 
The extended is the worse.

My sister in law 's father will hopefully not be at thanksgiving.

He's "retired military" so everyone looks at him as the font of wisdom. "Indians, Pakistanis, whatever, same difference - kill them all, keep the kids from breeding, steal their oil" and "if you invite [my wife's friend] the faggot and his n****er boyfriend to thanksgiving I won't show up" are two recent gems.

You're supposed to extend an arm in love, bengraven
 
My entire family, including my wife, voted for Trump. I am the only one who voted Hillary. I plan on having a wonderful thanksgiving and Christmas with them. B..b.b.but how could you have fun with racists?!?!! Because, I am an adult and I realize it was just a fucking election (oh and a vote for a supreme court justice doesn't make you racist). In four years there will be another one, and another four years after that.

This hyperbolic bullshit happens on both sides when they lose. Lots of tantrums and cries of Nazism and Fascism. Then life goes back to normal and the president does absolutely nothing for 4-8 years. Happens every time, yet people seem to act like its always a new concept.

This year is particularly bad because, for a certain subset of Millennials, this is their first loss, and they didn't even get a participation trophy.

1. President is a climate change denier, Republicans are climate change deniers, head of the EPA will be a climate change denier
2. Threats to same-sex marriage
3. Rise in hate crimes against marginalized groups
4. Threats to abortion rights
5. Threats to Muslim immigrants (and Muslim citizens alike)
6. Two members of two different hate groups (anti-LGBT and anti-Muslim) on Trump's team

And to you, that list can be summed up as "just a fucking election" - AKA, "the stuff Trump's threatening to do is not going to hurt you."
 

Seik

Banned
It's not about Trump in my case, but racism itself. (Canadian)

My mom sometimes posts anti-muslim shit on FB, two days ago she posted a video of muslim-like people climbing and destroying a Chrismas tree in what looks like a public place or a party, IDK.

She did write on that post: ''Go home, shishtaouk.''

I did call her and told her that shit was racist as hell and that I was ashamed of her and that she should take some time to think about why people are moving here in the first place (avoid war, crime, etc.), she argued with me that muslims don't appreciate our culture, I answered that she's seeing cherry picked videos on Facebook in the purpose to validate racism to dumb people.

After a few minutes of arguing I just stopped there and hung up and...I feel terrible that I had this argument with my mom. :(

I kinda get why she's like that, my grand mother was like that to, so shit just transferred, but I'm trying my best to make her understand that this shit is so wrong.
 

manueldelalas

Time Traveler
I'm also missing thanksgiving.

As the white dude in an interracial relationship with a largely rural family... Facebook hasn't been pretty, and I have no interest in seeing them right now.

I know most mean well, but they live in a bubble and lack consideration for others at best.
This is what I honestly don't understand, and sorry to pick your post of the hundreds here, but I think it's a good representation of the general feeling.

They live in a bubble, yet they openly invite their family members of different political views to share a meal without any sort of restriction. You don't live in a bubble, but refuse to visit people with different political views in fear of challenging their opinions, or some hypothetical discussion.

I think it's important to know how to discuss this stuff, and when to do it; much more than isolating yourself from your loved ones because of an election.

Did you have the same problem visiting them when Obama won?
 

Dominator

Member
Glad my family is not like this. Half my family voted for Trump and half voted for Hilary, but nobody cares cause thats irrelevant to our family time together during the holidays.
 

Flai

Member
Actual Trump Quote:
"When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best," Trump said. "They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

"They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

SOME are good people he ASSUMES. Otherwise, they're rapists. Stop trying to defend this shit, it is a completely racist statement and while he didn't call "all" Mexicans rapists, he painted a huge swath of them with that brush.

No, they are not rapists otherwise?? Jesus christ, did you even read what you posted? What he said, is that most of the people who "Mexico sends" (I assume that means people who come illegally) have lots of problems. That's it. Then he gives some examples, like for example they bring drugs, they bring crime or they are rapists. He doesn't say that everyone of them brings drugs andcrime and rape people. He does however say, that most of them are "people who have lots of problems". That is debatable (and probably not true).

But whatever, it seems like GAF and I have a different opinion on how much it's okay to twist people's statements and positions. But in my opinion, twisting the positions only brings more hate, division and misinformed people.
 

quickwhips

Member
This is the thing that gets me the most. When people say we're being too mean to working class people who voted for Trump and that they should be reached out to and educated, what do they think the end result will be? If you come up in an echo chamber of rejecting facts and then climb out of it or are brought out, you'll have more disdain for it and rightfully so. It's easy to understand why people do what they do; it doesn't mean you have to shrug your shoulders at it.

I don't even deny the idea that there's a liberal echo chamber too but it's a lot closer to reality. If your main news source has a "Black Crime" tab then you can eat a dick.

I don't think you have to stop using facts but if the only fact you bring up is your a racist your not going to make the discussion even happen. We should talk about the economy, rights of the people, but you just see people yell racist doesn't push the conversation forward.
 

RDreamer

Member
Did you have the same problem visiting them when Obama won?

The elections with Obama and Romney/McCain were fundamentally different on a whole other scale.

Did any of them call most Mexicans rapists? Did any of them say he was going to enforce a racist policy like national stop and frisk? Did any of them admit to sexually assaulting women in the same way that almost a dozen accused him of? Did any of them then say those women weren't good looking enough to sexually assault? Did any of them pick a fight with the parents of a dead solider? Did any of them make fun of a disabled reporter? Did Obama hire a white nationalist when he first got in office? Did Obama have a VP who wanted to take AIDS funding and put it into conversion therapy?

I questioned my family when they voted Romney or McCain, but let's not mince words. Romney and McCain are twice the men Donald Trump is. I found a lot of flaws with them, but they were horrible xenophobic, racist, sexual assaulting, incompetent pigs.

No, they are not rapists otherwise?? Jesus christ, did you even read what you posted? What he said, is that most of the people who "Mexico sends" (I assume that means people who come illegally) have lots of problems. That's it. Then he gives some examples, like for example they bring drugs, they bring crime or they are rapists. He doesn't say that everyone of them brings drugs andcrime and rape people. He does however say, that most of them are "people who have lots of problems". That is debatable (and probably not true).

But whatever, it seems like GAF and I have a different opinion on how much it's okay to twist people's statements and positions. But in my opinion, twisting the positions only brings more hate, division and misinformed people.

You're the one twisting his words. The only bone he threw to some Mexicans was that SOME are good people... he ASSUMES. He basically said that most undocumented immigrants are rapists, thieves, and drug deals and maybe only some are good. He doesn't even know that some are good. He assumes it. That's fucking disgusting.
 

turtle553

Member
Doctors can be stupid, they're not automatically more intelligent than everyone else, they just have knowledge about the human body. I know plenty of stupid racist doctors. How would you know if he was a racist or not? Have you brought up what he thinks about other races? Also, whether he's really racist or not, this Hasan Minhaj quote is still worth heeding.

giphy.gif

People for years complain that Republican voters continually vote against their self interests with poor economic policies. Now that a lot vote for their own self interests (whether true or not), the message is why aren't you thinking of others.
 

Alucrid

Banned
No, they are not rapists otherwise?? Jesus christ, did you even read what you posted? What he said, is that most of the people who "Mexico sends" (I assume that means people who come illegally) have lots of problems. That's it. Then he gives some examples, like for example they bring drugs, they bring crime or they are rapists. He doesn't say that everyone of them brings drugs andcrime and rape people. He does however say, that most of them are "people who have lots of problems". That is debatable (and probably not true).

But whatever, it seems like GAF and I have a different opinion on how much it's okay to twist people's statements and positions. But in my opinion, twisting the positions only brings more hate, division and misinformed people.

it's strange that he can't think of any other problems mexican immigrants might have other than drugs, rape and crime. what could that possibly mean?
 

Codeblue

Member
People for years complain that Republican voters continually vote against their self interests with poor economic policies. Now that a lot vote for their own self interests (whether true or not), the message is why aren't you thinking of others.

They still voted against their interests, just now human rights are on the line too.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
People for years complain that Republican voters continually vote against their self interests with poor economic policies. Now that a lot vote for their own self interests (whether true or not), the message is why aren't you thinking of others.

This isn't true, there's no flipflop. The criticism of poor republican voters has always been that they allow themselves to be manipulated into voting against their self interests. But they have always thought they were looking out for themselves by believing GOP politicians who in reality like having poor people to exploit.

Nothing has changed, Trump is the same scenario. They believed the con man with a string of failed businesses when he said it would be 1955 again. And so voted for their self interest once more without thinking maybe it's bullshit.
 
My family visited this past weekend and I purposefully went in to the weekend planning to speak not a word of politics and Trump. I've been pretty upset about the treatment of others after he was elected by some of his supporters and my parents voted for Trump which had lead to some intense conversations before. I have always had a great relationship with them and a large part of the reason for why I have issues with Trump is because of the value of others they instilled in me through their words and example as I grew up. So part of me doesn't get why they are defending him. Doesn't make sense to me. One of them brought it up and I couldn't help myself and got into it again. I'm done talking politics though. Won't get hooked again. Almost everyone on my wife's side of the family voted for Trump and I'm not getting into it there either over the holidays. I would rather enjoy my time with them instead of argue.
 
No, they are not rapists otherwise?? Jesus christ, did you even read what you posted? What he said, is that most of the people who "Mexico sends" (I assume that means people who come illegally) have lots of problems. That's it. Then he gives some examples, like for example they bring drugs, they bring crime or they are rapists. He doesn't say that everyone of them brings drugs andcrime and rape people. He does however say, that most of them are "people who have lots of problems". That is debatable (and probably not true).

But whatever, it seems like GAF and I have a different opinion on how much it's okay to twist people's statements and positions. But in my opinion, twisting the positions only brings more hate, division and misinformed people.

Why do you assume he means people who come here illegally when he literally doesn't say it in the quote? I mean he also assumes that there are only some good people in the people coming over (he knows that criminals and rapists over but only assumes that some are ok), which again, he doesn't distinguish between illegal and legal in his statement. You've twisted his position and statement more than we have. The people who read it, the Mexican Americans who hear it, have to take it at face value. They don't have the luxury of giving him some sort of benefit of the doubt when bigotry is not a stranger to the GOP in general. Hell, the people who cheer for it at his rallies take it at face value. His statements are the division for godsakes. Don't act like us using his own words against him are what's bringing about division and hatred. It's disingenuous. You know he's hired Steve Bannon of Breitbart for his administration. You know Pence the homophobe is his VP. Why are you giving him some sort of pass as though he doesn't actually mean what he fucking says?
 
People for years complain that Republican voters continually vote against their self interests with poor economic policies. Now that a lot vote for their own self interests (whether true or not), the message is why aren't you thinking of others.

Do you honestly think Trump is going to do anything for these people
 

Azih

Member
The problem with the divide is how do you make a case at election time for people who you don't even talk to anymore?
 

Keri

Member
No, they are not rapists otherwise?? Jesus christ, did you even read what you posted? What he said, is that most of the people who "Mexico sends" (I assume that means people who come illegally) have lots of problems. That's it. Then he gives some examples, like for example they bring drugs, they bring crime or they are rapists. He doesn't say that everyone of them brings drugs andcrime and rape people. He does however say, that most of them are "people who have lots of problems". That is debatable (and probably not true).

But whatever, it seems like GAF and I have a different opinion on how much it's okay to twist people's statements and positions. But in my opinion, twisting the positions only brings more hate, division and misinformed people.

I posted earlier in the thread, stating I know a few people who voted for Trump this year, including Mexican Americans. They interpreted this statement as applying only to illegals and, specifically, the rapist comment as referring to the high number of illegal women who are raped while attempting to cross the border. So, they saw the statement as: (1) Not applying to them; and (2) Factually correct and bringing attention to terrible crimes that take place, in the course of immigrating.

Just to give an idea of some of the perspectives I encountered during this election.
 
The extended is the worse.

My sister in law 's father will hopefully not be at thanksgiving.

He's "retired military" so everyone looks at him as the font of wisdom. "Indians, Pakistanis, whatever, same difference - kill them all, keep the kids from breeding, steal their oil" and "if you invite [my wife's friend] the faggot and his n****er boyfriend to thanksgiving I won't show up" are two recent gems.

Invite them. Fuck that dude. Start shit with her father in law if it comes up. You all need to be more confrontational with your families. And forcefully so (do not back down, try to be civil initially, and out scream them if necessary). The problem in the US and other places is reverence to outmoded ideas, especially hateful ones. Don't take the bullshit and sit there silently.

It breeds a feeling of helplessness and apathy.

And I speak from experience. I debate and correct ignorance from people around me. It gets ugly sometimes but many times those on the receiving end grow, especially if you keep engaging them.
 

FStop7

Banned
I'm from a catholic family so my thanksgiving will be hell. Last year we briefly discussed healthcare and I mentioned the U.S. has one of the highest infant mortality rates in the first world. A family member responded by saying "of course we do! With all them baby parts being stolen by Planned Parenthood it all makes sense!"

It truly is a post-truth society.

You should have rolled with it and explained to her that unlike dinosaurs, babies are a renewable resource and the world needs baby oil to keep running.
 
I don't think shutting out your family helps anyone. You should stick around and fight the good fight while at the same time not allowing toxicity to run your life.



I'm pretty sure my dad voted for him. He's a doctor, so he's not stupid. He's not a racist either, though he's no fan of illegal immigration.

He stands on the side of racists so.....
 

Ryzaki009

Member
People for years complain that Republican voters continually vote against their self interests with poor economic policies. Now that a lot vote for their own self interests (whether true or not), the message is why aren't you thinking of others.

? Except they *still* voted against their interests the only difference is the lot of us are gonna get screwed over too.
 
For you, it's an argument at a dinner table. For everyone else affected, it's a serious concern about their rights and lives. If you're not willing to have it out with your family in a safe space to battle prejudices and misconceptions, what hope is there for less fortunate others who are and likely to suffer and rely on people from the majority to stand up for them?
 
The problem with the divide is how do you make a case at election time for people who you don't even talk to anymore?

I don't know that it matters if you can't even agree to what is and is not true.

Fake news and slanted news has made it impossible to have a conversation about politics.

This is not a case any longer of differing ideologies, say differing economic philosophies, this is just a a case of many people denying the realities of the world and being unwilling to accept that they may be wrong.
 
You have 2 options for president, you vote for the person you HOPE has your interests in mind

I understand some people think Trump supporters should somehow be free from criticism because they think they were doing what's best for them but in that case, why is that better than voting for anyone else, or for voting what you feel is best for the country?

Why the kid gloves for them, especially when the people going to bat for Trump supporters seemingly have no problem admitting it's a dumb choice? It honestly seems like the racism stuff is the only issue.
 

RDreamer

Member
I don't know that it matters if you can't even agree to what is and is not true.

Fake news and slanted news has made it impossible to have a conversation about politics.

This is not a case any longer of differing ideologies, say differing economic philosophies, this is just a a case of many people denying the realities of the world and being unwilling to accept that they may be wrong.

Right, this is the problem and why I can't argue with family anymore. When you get bizarre unreality and crazy conspiracies like Planned Parenthood is selling babies and crooked Hillary purposefully killed 4 people in Benghazi, what the fuck do you say? I don't carry around the internet to show them some fact checks of literally every sentence that spews out of their mouths. So on the off chance we even have a discussion for a few minutes its stopped dead in its tracks soon enough when we can't agree on reality. Then they think they won because I can't produce a fact that's counter to what they say. Even if I manage it, then it's a "liberal talking point" or "probably from Clinton News Network."

So now what?
 
For you, it's an argument at a dinner table. For everyone else affected, it's a serious concern about their rights and lives. If you're not willing to have it out with your family in a safe space to battle prejudices and misconceptions, what hope is there for less fortunate others who are and likely to suffer and rely on people from the majority to stand up for them?

Right. For a lot of those who won't be speaking up this holiday, I imagine they have vocalized their point of view already and/or recognize that it is an argument that isn't going anywhere and won't accomplish anything except ruining the mood.
 

TylerD

Member
I'm pretty sure my whole family voted for Trump. My girlfriend and I will have some battling to do. I'm actually looking forward to getting in to it with them :)
 
You gotta be racist as hell or remarkably stupid to actually vote for him. Not surprising someone wouldn't want to be around that.

Well, if this continues to be the reaction, then guess what? Trump will win again in 2020. Not everyone who voted for him is a racist or stupid. Just like not everyone who voted for Hillary fucked up their emails.

A lot (a fucking lot) of people voted for him because he's not Hillary, and a shitload more voted for him because the Dems haven't done dick for them in the past 8 years and they want to be heard. No doubt a lot of those are ignorant, racist, sexist people. And trust me, I get the frustration. I had certainly hoped we had either left that behind or had reached a point of enlightenment as human beings that such trash belonged in the gutter of history.

But yeah, this is part of the generalization that fueled Trump's victory. If we keep making the same generalization, we're gonna get eight years of this crap.
 
Right. For a lot of those who won't be speaking up this holiday, I imagine they have vocalized their point of view already and/or recognize that it is an argument that isn't going anywhere and won't accomplish anything except ruining the mood.

Yeah, with my family (with the exception of my Mom) all a political conversation leads to is bad feelings and no minds changed.

I don't begrudge anyone who chooses to just bite their lip and not engage in order to have a more pleasant holiday. I also don't begrudge anyone who chooses not to be around their family because of their political beliefs.

Because by all measurements, this shit is different this year. In a lot of people's minds, the election of Trump has them concerned for their and their friend's safety, and it's harder to just get over thinking people voted in someone you feel is going to do that much potential damage.
 

Azih

Member
I don't know that it matters if you can't even agree to what is and is not true.

Fake news and slanted news has made it impossible to have a conversation about politics.

This is not a case any longer of differing ideologies, say differing economic philosophies, this is just a a case of many people denying the realities of the world and being unwilling to accept that they may be wrong.

I understand the frustration but I would suggest that disrupting an ugly consensus is important just to allow some space for people to come to a different opinion even if they don't take it. Otherwise groupthink makes it hard to think that disagreeing is even an option.
 

turtle553

Member
Do you honestly think Trump is going to do anything for these people

Doubtful, but at least he had a message for people who are struggling while Hillary said those jobs are gone. The point being is that they are still voting for what they believe is in their best interest and are now being told they should be concerned with others. A nice sentiment, but not really how a lot of people think.
 
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