Polygon: "After a Half-Hour with The Last Guardian, I'm Concerned"
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EatinOlives
Member
You read wrong.
People aren't worried about the controls in TLG because they didn't have problems with the controls of their previous two games.
I don't agree with that part. A lot of hype/hope here is coming from what people felt about their experiences with ICO and SOTC (GOAT experiences for many, even though they were quite flawed in a number of ways). NMS was about primarily one man being dishonest about their own game's greatness and what you could do.
If TLG can manage to at least match the serviceable controls/mechanics of ICO/SOTC while delivering on the emotional connections, atmosphere, and narrative? That will make it a success in the eyes of Ueda/Team ICO fans. I don't think the rest of the gaming community will give it much of a chance though either way.
Is it really that hard to understand that this isn't an objective thing? If you didn't have a problem with the controls in SotC, you probably won't in TLG either. The same goes for the reverse if you hated the controls in SotC. They are not objectively bad, they are just polarizing.
If everyone thought that the controls were bad, it would be more understandable to criticize this aspect of the game. But the gameplay videos make it easy to see that the game just controls like Team ICO's previous works, and to lots of people that's a good thing.
If everyone thought that the controls were bad, it would be more understandable to criticize this aspect of the game. But the gameplay videos make it easy to see that the game just controls like Team ICO's previous works, and to lots of people that's a good thing.
OrbitalBeard
Member
This game is going to be receiving a very mixed critical reception. Far more so than the first two games, I'd wager.
I personally think the controls for the previous two games are fine. Hopefully they're not worse here.
I personally think the controls for the previous two games are fine. Hopefully they're not worse here.
Steve Youngblood
Member
OK, sure. But in that example, if the tank controls are problematic to you wouldn't you point them out and say "I don't like the controls here." Levying this kind of criticism I think does necessitate recognizing that many of these types of decisions are done deliberately for any of a number of reasons. I agree that very often it can be counterproductive to criticize a game for not being something it was never trying to be. However, that also doesn't mean that we need to be blindly deferential to every decision creators make. If tank controls make some new game modeled after classic Resident Evil less fun to you, you're still going to make that argument. You're not going to say "well, I think the controls are shitty, but since they're supposed to be shitty I'll give it a pass."
Okami Haundo
Member
I have the same complaint! It's true that a media outlet generally works as a team to deliver a consistent message, but that doesn't mean they're all the same person. Worth pointing out that the person streaming that game wasn't the reviewer
That aside, I also just don't buy the BS that you need to be an expert at a given game to be capable of rendering a solid opinion for a review. Being well versed in a genre doesn't mean you'll be amazing at every game in that genre automatically. On top of that, outlets do everything they can to avoid making people play games they aren't well versed in.
FInally, in the context of this thread, it's OK to have complaints about a games controls if they don't feel "right" to you. Reviews and Previews are opinions and most importantly, this was a 30 minute demo. Phil may play the full game and find that he never adjusts to the controls, that doesn't mean that no one can or will.
PaulBizkit
Member
It sounds like a Team Ico game. As a matter of fact, i really like that they kept the sloppyness of the main character's movement.
Lionel Richie
Member
It doesn't matter who was the one who did it, Polygon as a journalism vehicle had an editorial responsibility and they just ran with it anyway. It doesn't lead to anything serious mind you, just the rights for people on the internet to mock you.
Never forget.
Please don't do this.
I'll be honest but I thought SotC controlled pretty damn well. There was an inherent sloppy nature to the characters movements like stumbling and being a little loose but you were still given a great deal of control over certain actions. Once you figured out the quirks you could do some really amazing things especially in the context of just being a normal everyman on a quest. Things like not wanting to grab onto a colossus that was trying to shake you off and standing on it and moving your stick in counterpoint to its flailing just enough that you didn't overcompensate and fall over in the other direction but just enough that once the Colossus stopped moving as much you were right side up with your grip meter full and ready to start the ascent to the next level of the beast.
Even the horse controls, while finicky were pretty great in creating a method of transportation and attack that had a "mind" of its own and reacted like a real horse would to a lot of situations. Some of my favorite colossus fights were runs that required you to use the horse to get onto the Colossus like the flying one that could also plunge into the sands beneath it. The game had a very specific design in mind that alluded quite well to the fact your character wasn't a super hero he man who could surmount any obstacle but it gave you a fine enough control of the limited set of abilities and actions you had to do some amazing things. Some of the colossus speed runs I've seen are down right nuts with how clever and creative skilled players got with the game.
Even the horse controls, while finicky were pretty great in creating a method of transportation and attack that had a "mind" of its own and reacted like a real horse would to a lot of situations. Some of my favorite colossus fights were runs that required you to use the horse to get onto the Colossus like the flying one that could also plunge into the sands beneath it. The game had a very specific design in mind that alluded quite well to the fact your character wasn't a super hero he man who could surmount any obstacle but it gave you a fine enough control of the limited set of abilities and actions you had to do some amazing things. Some of the colossus speed runs I've seen are down right nuts with how clever and creative skilled players got with the game.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
Because I would think that before publishing it, their content is being reviewed and deemed fit to be published. If that's the case and that DOOM video was deemed fit to be published I don't see why they can't be viewed as one entity.
I haven't been convinced yet. Ico and SotC were great, sure, but this has gone through so much development hell that I'm not going to just blindly assume it's going to be great. The controls sound not ideal, but then again, neither was the original Ico (but that was ten years ago...).
I'm not getting my hopes up, but I am hoping it is good.
I'm not getting my hopes up, but I am hoping it is good.
I think what people are saying is that there has been a design language established in the last few generations of games with third person controls and cameras.
If Team ICO decided that they would not be using this language, it has to be for a valid reason that somehow enhances the gameplay. Games like Dark Souls voluntarily made that change because it enhanced the game and was justified by the design.
You shouldn't have to learn new controls or handle a camera if it has been done better and more intuitively in the past, especially if it's just to recall an older generation of games.
A teacher that teaches the alphabet out of order is a bad teacher. That's the reality of it.
Acquiescence
Member
If SotC has bad controls, then how does it somehow manage to have far superior horse-riding than The Witcher 3, which came out ten years later.
Eh? Answer me that little riddle.
Eh? Answer me that little riddle.
EatinOlives
Member
There's a distinction some people here like to overlook in an attempt to seem clever.
1. You didn't like the controls of previous Team ICO games. That's ok, the controls aren't conventional and they're not meant to be. It's silly to asume literally everyone wouldn't have a problem with them. TLG doesn't seem to change them in this regard, so the game probably isn't going to be for you if those controls were a deal breaker.
2. You liked the controls of the previous Team ICO games. That's ok too, the characters are meant to move with a certain verisimilitude and this game looks to be the same. There's no reason to be worried about the controls if you liked the movement in their previous games.
People saying shit like "people are defending bad controls!" operate on the assumption that literally everyone in the world agrees that the controls are objectively bad. That simply isn't the case. The arguments that stem from that erroneous assumption, like "it's because the game has taken so long!", "it's because they're in denial that the game may be mediocre!", "something something No Man's Sky!", only further deviate from any logical conclusion. Work from a faulty premise, get an even faultier conclusion.
1. You didn't like the controls of previous Team ICO games. That's ok, the controls aren't conventional and they're not meant to be. It's silly to asume literally everyone wouldn't have a problem with them. TLG doesn't seem to change them in this regard, so the game probably isn't going to be for you if those controls were a deal breaker.
2. You liked the controls of the previous Team ICO games. That's ok too, the characters are meant to move with a certain verisimilitude and this game looks to be the same. There's no reason to be worried about the controls if you liked the movement in their previous games.
People saying shit like "people are defending bad controls!" operate on the assumption that literally everyone in the world agrees that the controls are objectively bad. That simply isn't the case. The arguments that stem from that erroneous assumption, like "it's because the game has taken so long!", "it's because they're in denial that the game may be mediocre!", "something something No Man's Sky!", only further deviate from any logical conclusion. Work from a faulty premise, get an even faultier conclusion.
Okami Haundo
Member
That video was intended to be a stream of the first 15-minutes of the game and it was what they promised. Unless the person playing started up the wrong game or played the wrong section of the game I can't see why they would need to deem that "unfit" to be published. That's like saying that Phil was "unfit" to write this preview because he didn't spend 2 hours mastering the controls before forming an opinion.
Agro has the superior animation by far, but it's easier to control Roach.
The problem isn't having an opinion on the controls but trying to stir the pot over something that a series of games always has been/has had and has never been seen as intrinsically negative.
Imagine how stupid would be an article that said "After a Half-Hour with Gran Turismo 7, I'm Concerned" because it doesn't control like... i dunno... Mario Kart.
How about you compare it with other Car sims on the market instead? Nobody compared TLG with Mario, as far as I'm concerned.
flashbandit16
Member
No, is it possible there is a game where I do not like the controls. Yes but that doesn't make the controls bad its my opinion its subjective not fact.
Thus Roach is less immersive and representative of real experience of riding a horse.
That's the issue here: people are arguing about what they feel it should be not what it is.
These games are based not on principle of perfect controls a'la a 2D platformer and complete player control.n they are designed on principle of evoking a sense of character, a young somewhat clumsy but energetic boy, a headstrong horse... there's no reconciling the two approaches as they're inherently opposite. If you have perfect controls you automatically don't have a real horse or a real boy or a real griffon thing dog bird cat whatever it is.
EatinOlives
Member
Yes.
However, the ones in ICO and SotC aren't objectively bad. They're unconventional. They can turn off people just as much as they can interest them.
Okami Haundo
Member
I'm not sure that the takeaway here should be that Polygon is trying to "stir the pot" with this preview. I also don't understand your example, as Phil made no direct comparisons to other games in this preview.
Mushroomer25
Member
So it's immune to criticism? If a game controls like shit, and gets in the way of its own objectives - it deserves to be roasted for that.
thomasmahler
Moon Studios
I dunno, looking at the 20m gameplay that was released, I think it looks pretty damn good to me. The physics on the boy sometimes go a little nutty and I hope that they can still fix that for release, but overall, it looks very much like a Team ICO game to me and is my most highly anticipated release this year.
slightconfuse
Banned
not surprised game has been in development for 10 years. its more a curiosity at this point.
Called what? It's an impression from one person.
ienjoyrawfish
Member
Because "lol hasn't aged well" is a convenient line trotted out by people (usually hack journalists) who are too lazy to properly engage with retro games or articulate any coherent reasons why they don't like them.
I am tired of explaining this.it has not been in active development for 10 years.
Corpsepyre
Banned
If I had a PS4, I would have played the shit out of this PS2 game!
That is kinda my point, the polygon guy wants TLG controls to be more swift, tight and with point to point precision which is more akin, ironically, to Mario which has totally different design goals as a franchise.
The Ico series has pretty clear goals in animations and controls so you can't say that his particular iteration of the franchise is going to be bad for it even when the past ones (that also had the same concepts) have been praised a lot.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
"Feels like a PS2 game" seems more complimentary or anything. Better than than a modern AAA game. Even beyond that, though, his comments don't seem too damning. It's just not what he expected... I guess.
Even if this is the first team ico game for the reviewer...
1)this could be the first team ico game for a lot of other people that could feel the same as the reviewer
2)guys we are in 2016, i know that you love ico and the ps2 but gaming evolved a lot since them, feeling like a ps2 game isn't a compliment at all.
...don't dismiss his opinion because it could be more widespread than you think.
1)this could be the first team ico game for a lot of other people that could feel the same as the reviewer
2)guys we are in 2016, i know that you love ico and the ps2 but gaming evolved a lot since them, feeling like a ps2 game isn't a compliment at all.
...don't dismiss his opinion because it could be more widespread than you think.
entremet
Member
Yep.
Times have changed.
Western reviewers really have been pretty harsh with Japanese game sensibilities in the last 6 years.
I would agree if this was not a game made purely for the fans of Ueda games.
If controls are truly intended to give a sense of clumsiness and unrefined movement ability then I can understand that. If the awkward controls are a result of the developer just having no idea what they are doing then it would concern me. The controls are the same regardless of intention, but I'm hoping to play the game and feel that the former scenario is the case.
(Never played a Team Ico game)
(Never played a Team Ico game)
I'm also concerned... because I am starting to see comments pop up all around the internet that seem to imply that people are ready to dislike this game. I am almost sure that this game will probably be great, will get lots of great reviews, but will also be saddled with a bunch of unfairly negative reviews and will be nearly campaigned against by people on the internet.
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe people will be completely fair and even handed. Maybe the game will be terrible. Who knows? All I can say is that I am concerned that people are going to be their usual selves and turn irrationally vindictive.
Yet Ico is still a substantially better game than almost every modern video game. I have played it recently; it holds up.
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe people will be completely fair and even handed. Maybe the game will be terrible. Who knows? All I can say is that I am concerned that people are going to be their usual selves and turn irrationally vindictive.
Yet Ico is still a substantially better game than almost every modern video game. I have played it recently; it holds up.
Other games in that genre like Uncharted, Tomb Raider, Arkham and even Assassin's Creed are probably what would most likely be expected from a control point of view. Same thing about the camera.
True I'll give you that.
still gotta love Roach
And this person said a pretty much positive things about the most important aspect of the game for me
good/clever puzzles
good level design and environments
the relation ship between Trico and the boy
my mind getting blow away while going through the story and music
those are what I care about.
The former was the case with ICO and SotC, and it clearly is in TLG as well judging by the gameplay videos. The protagonist is a child, so his movements are going to be portrayed as realistically clumsy and uncoordinated via his animations. Now it's important to still maintain a level of control over the character that feels good working in conjunction with that type of animation, but since that was achieved in their previous games I'm more inclined to expect the same from TLG.
usp84
Member
What exactly did you call?
I cant believe these kind of posts.Every damn impressions/review thread.As if saying something about game will make you special or something