-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Pope Francis Says the Ban on Women Priests Will Last Forever
- Thread starter Johndoey
- Start date
- Status
Well, if it's one of the African Cardinals oh boy, not one inch of progress for a long time.
Polioliolio
Member
But they did all live together, away from men, except maybe one or two overseer dudes, who were probably sexually abusing them, let's not give the church too much credit here.
Yeah, I don't think the "only men were apostles" bit translates into a convincing argument for no women priests.
If your idea of "improving" the church is making it more egalitarian and more liberal, an African pope would be probably the most regressive step they could make.
If your idea of "improving" the church is making it more egalitarian and more liberal, an African pope would be probably the most regressive step they could make.
As a pastor, this more than anything the church (not just the catholic church) infuriates me. Especially when rules about women in leadership positions are so obviously listed in the epistles alongside OTHER INSTRUCTIONS RELATING SPECIFICALLY TO THAT CULTURE.
You can make an argument for many other things that we debate about, but in my opinion this is not one of them. We do not make women wear head coverings either, because that is interpreted as a cultural instruction only, yet only a few sentences away in the very same instruction we think that never letting a woman be in leadership over a man applies for all time.
It was meant for the specific church in Ephesus that Timothy was pastoring and it was most likely because of the role women played in the temples in that area as priestesses that were also prostitutes. They wanted to separate themselves from that picture of worship as much as possible for that specific community in that specific place in time. That is not our context today and so while we should look at the core reason this instruction was given (looking different from the rest of the world), the instruction itself should not be our focus.
I've seen women do incredible things in ministry from organizing programs that have changed entire communities to balancing budgets and benevolence (money for the poor) to teaching scripture from an entirely new and fresh perspective.
Men love to argue about women's role in ministry while women continue to humbly serve, lead, teach, and change the world. I wonder which side Jesus would be on.
You can make an argument for many other things that we debate about, but in my opinion this is not one of them. We do not make women wear head coverings either, because that is interpreted as a cultural instruction only, yet only a few sentences away in the very same instruction we think that never letting a woman be in leadership over a man applies for all time.
It was meant for the specific church in Ephesus that Timothy was pastoring and it was most likely because of the role women played in the temples in that area as priestesses that were also prostitutes. They wanted to separate themselves from that picture of worship as much as possible for that specific community in that specific place in time. That is not our context today and so while we should look at the core reason this instruction was given (looking different from the rest of the world), the instruction itself should not be our focus.
I've seen women do incredible things in ministry from organizing programs that have changed entire communities to balancing budgets and benevolence (money for the poor) to teaching scripture from an entirely new and fresh perspective.
Men love to argue about women's role in ministry while women continue to humbly serve, lead, teach, and change the world. I wonder which side Jesus would be on.
SolarMystic
Member
As an athiest who used to be Catholic, I find it very surprising how liberal Episcopalians seem to be. Granted I am just now reading about them.
I may have to point this church out to some of my family and friends who remain Catholic but are tired of their shit (but are not interested in atheism).
The Albatross
Member
Francis is Argentinian, and he's also the first non-European born Pope in over 1200 years. The next Pope could certainly be from Africa or Asia, there's a decent likelihood of it. I don't know if an African or Asian Pope would bring about the social change you might be hoping for in the Church, though, as Catholics from those regions tend to be far more conservative than Catholics from Europe and the Americas. There has, obviously, never been an American Pope (well, North American) so it would be quite an achievement geographically and socially for an American Pope, and an African American Pope would also be an achievement, but, I don't think that there are any African American Cardinals. While Black people are predominantly Christian, relatively very few are Catholic... Among religious African Americans, only 5% are Catholic.
Aside from Race diversity, in terms of gender/sex diversity (as long as we're talking about the Church), the Pope cannot be a woman because every preceding title (Cardinal, Archbishop, Bishop, Priest, etc) are positions that are only occupied by men.
The Albatross
Member
No need to worry, a thread about Catholicism has never given the Church too much credit, here.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Well there's the part where every single Pope before John Paul II (Polish) was Italian. Then we got a German and now we got the first non.European Pope with Francis (Argentinian). Don't Americans not consider Latin Americans white even if their skin is as white as snow? Because if we hold that line of thinking then we already have the first non-white Pope with Francis.
The Catholic Church has been somewhat adequate at adapting to changes in the times. But colossal changes like women priests will take way more than one moderate Pope.
Orniletter
Banned
Oh, someone fell for the improved PR to hide that he and the organization he is representing is just as regressive as it ever was.
Edit: The justification for exlcuding women is pure made up bullshit. But thats kind of catholicism in a nutshell, so meh.
buttery fistful
Member
good going, jesus
Jesus didn't say anything about allowing air conditioning in places of worship... so yeah.
Messofanego
Banned
So that's the reason for priests being celibate? The more you know!
Yeah, that would explain why women aren't eligible for the job - jesus didn't want them alone in his "crib" in case they found his gigantic porn stash and went all judgemental.
The Albatross
Member
I think the guy you quoted is in dodgy territory because he's applying American (US) standards of diversity to a non-American institution. But, he also suggested that the Church appoint a female Pope, when this is a thread about how Women cannot be priests, so I don't think he has much a grasp on the basics of the Catholic Church.
I agree with your point and made a similar one a couple posts up, but it's worth mentioning for others who don't know that Francis is Argentinian born, but both his his parents are Italian-Argentinians. They emigrated from Italy to Europe and he was the first generation born in Argentina. It still counts as being Argentinian, but I could see how he would be considered 'White,' similar to a first generation Italian-American would be considered 'White.' Culturally, it's much more significant than racially. He has the racial DNA of an Italian, but his 'cultural DNA' is furtively South American and Argentinian.
But, like you, I think the point is kind of irrelevant or too different because original guy we quoted seems to, a) not know the basic rules/history of the Catholic Church, and b) be applying American (US) standards of diversity to a non-American (in many ways anti-American, especially the Vatican) institution.
hurricanes
Member
Whatever... as an "outsider" I could never wrap my head around Christianity (And many other Monotheistic religions).
Well, the official rules are not clear... but the case of a priest becoming Pope is definitively a possibility they consider. So if a woman become a priest, there's no real hurdle that prevent her becoming Pope.
Actually, if I'm not mistaken, the constitution doesn't even rule out someone holding no position (and doesn't rule out a woman, technically, if I'm not mistaken), it's just a case that isn't been discussed.
The catholic church change its position a ton of times, on things which are bigger and more important than ordination of women, and it was almost always done to get along with the changing times.
kavanf1
Member
Basically, yes. If you google it there's a lot of info out there about the vast wealth the church accumulated via tithes and indulgences and so on, and they did their utmost to hold on to it, to they extent that they retroactively applied this celibacy rule and made out like it was scripturally driven when in fact it was a business decision.
Corruption in the church was one of the main drivers for the reformation.
FrozenCell
Member
didn't progressive christians migrate to protestantism like centuries ago
I read in an article by SVT (the Swedish national broadcaster) today that this wasn't all that the "GOAT Pope" said about women when he got the question. Supposedly, he laughed it off and said something... even worse in context. SVT has the entire quote:
http://www.svt.se/nyheter/utrikes/paven-darfor-soker-svenska-man-kvinnor-fran-andra-lander
Translation:
Q:"What's your position on female priests in the Catholic Church? Is it realistic to expect female priests within the next few decades and if not, why not? Are Catholic priests afraid of competition?"
[laughter]
A:"I've heard that Swedish women are very strong, very able, and that because of that, a man or two will look for women from other countries, I don't know if that's true or not not. As for female priests in the Catholic Church, the final word on that matter was said by Holy John Paul II and that still stands."
So, yup. That sentence is so Trumpian that I can't help but feel like he just called us a nation of cucks.
http://www.svt.se/nyheter/utrikes/paven-darfor-soker-svenska-man-kvinnor-fran-andra-lander
Translation:
Q:"What's your position on female priests in the Catholic Church? Is it realistic to expect female priests within the next few decades and if not, why not? Are Catholic priests afraid of competition?"
[laughter]
A:"I've heard that Swedish women are very strong, very able, and that because of that, a man or two will look for women from other countries, I don't know if that's true or not not. As for female priests in the Catholic Church, the final word on that matter was said by Holy John Paul II and that still stands."
So, yup. That sentence is so Trumpian that I can't help but feel like he just called us a nation of cucks.
Yup, I also mentioned this earlier and was going to reply but you got to it first.
It's actually a really interesting subject to me.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I am catholic, more as a joke, and yeah but the point is if the church wants a zealot they'll find a zealot. Young folks aren't all enlightened.
Pyrrhus
Member
I think this is a misunderstanding of the situation. Luther and those who came after him believed that laypeople could properly interpret the Scripture in their own languages without needing priests or the Latin language or the Catholic Church as intermediaries. That was the crux of the schism. That doesn't mean that they were any more progressive in the modern sense than the Catholics. Prostestants still killed homosexuals, oppressed Jews, kept women disenfrachised, punished apostates harshly, used spiritual authority for worldly wealth and power and a great majority of the other parts of the culture you hate.
You'll recall the Puritans of the Colonial period were Protestant, for instance. And our current political problems in the United States have a great deal to do with the malleability of the Protestant strain of Christianity's focus on spiritualism and feelings and personal interpretation and the related rejection of science over the more cosmopolitan, more hierarchical, more formally educated tradition that Catholicism represents. Every backwoods preacher can be his own demagogue and say whatever crazy, hateful things he wants and claim the authority of his god in a way that the Catholic clergy cannot.
But really, I don't know what people are expecting with this pope. He's socially conscious but in the end he's still Catholic. He's not going to just expunge two millennia of dogma at the drop of a hat.
He's still far more humanitarian than his predecessor, Benedict XVI. Remember him? He just up and got the hell out of Dodge and vacated what was supposed to be a lifetime position and we still have no idea why, though many speculate it was to escape the consequences of some monetary or pedophilia scandal. He's the Palpatine-looking guy sitting in the gold throne in the picture a few posts above, by the way. The current guy had that ugly thing removed because he thought it was not humble and among other things publicly washed and kissed the feet of Muslims and Hindu refugees from Syria and Pakistan this year in acknowledgement of the Easter holiday and the bonds of humanity. Some are better than others and the perfect is the enemy of the good.
Milly Osworth
Member
In a while religion is gone, so forever is meaningless mr pope.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Nah we will have catholic priestesses in the colonies of TItan in 400 years.
someone doesn't hang out with hispanics
someone doesn't hang out with hispanics
The Albatross
Member
No, but, even beyond a no or yes answer, it's not that simple. Protestantism contains both progressive and very conservative Christian movements, and within the Catholic Church, there are also progressive and conservative Christian movements. The most conservative Christian movements are typically protestant or non-denominational, and those conservative Christian movements usually consider the Catholic Church a progressive, liberal evil. Protestantism, itself, was supposed to restore conservative Christianity from a Church that had strayed too far away from the original intent, restore Biblical literalism, and claim that the Bible -- and the Bible alone -- could be the only single source of truth. That's a very conservative philosophy.
I completely agree with you here. I'm an atheist, but threads like this always leave me shaking my head, because the overwhelming majority of responses will be something akin to "I thought this was a good pope, but now I can't believe he doesn't recognize gender fluidity and embrace non-binary, what an asshole..." or something. It just displays a remarkable ignorance about the Pope, Catholicism, and the shocking revelation that some people may have different ideas about the world than I do"
Alcoremortis
Member
You know, the Church used to make a similar argument for not having girls as altar servers.
Oh, altar serving was supposed to be a training stepping stone to the priesthood, so it was only appropriate for boys to do it, yadda yadda yadda.
Well, there are girl altar servers now. They didn't have enough boys for the job, so it opened up to everyone.
I'm not even sure this male-only priest thing will last the next few decades. As soon as they start feeling the pinch of having too few priests to serve their parishoners, they'll come up with a new interpretation that allows for women deacons and priests. They just aren't desperate enough yet.
Oh, altar serving was supposed to be a training stepping stone to the priesthood, so it was only appropriate for boys to do it, yadda yadda yadda.
Well, there are girl altar servers now. They didn't have enough boys for the job, so it opened up to everyone.
I'm not even sure this male-only priest thing will last the next few decades. As soon as they start feeling the pinch of having too few priests to serve their parishoners, they'll come up with a new interpretation that allows for women deacons and priests. They just aren't desperate enough yet.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked