-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
PopGAF |OT6| Beyonic is never coming out.
- Thread starter Artemisia
- Start date
- Status
Soulscribe
Member
She was a better artist because of BTW. Her performances were more editorial, she utilized her vocals a lot more efficiently, her styles were more dynamic, polished and well-themed, and for the first time since her debut she was FINALLY able to calibrate her music and her message together in one package.
And don't get me started on the whole "speaking out for gay marriage was a bad thing" bullshit. Seeing the number of GAY people go after Lady Gaga for speaking out for GAY people is fucking appalling.
Here's a fact: Most of the people who have problems with Lady Gaga's message for gay rights ARE gay people. Not straight people. In the "straight community," she's been recognized as both a social figure and a political icon, and she's one of the main footnotes in the historic American turn FOR marriage equality. This is indisputable.
The people who've had a problem with her focusing so much of her energy on social justice and calling her a "panderer" in the process are her gay fans, and I'm not sure whether that comes from a place of self-depracating spite or just plain idiocy but you ALL owe a great deal to her for being so bravely outspoken during the big social shift of 2009-2012. I'm so SICK of hearing so many gay people insult her for "pandering" to a group like she really needs to try SO hard to get gay people on her side. They were ALREADY on her side. What she did for gay people is completely invaluable and it's because of the Born This Way album, and her message that aligned with it. So let's NOT
I agree though that she needs to do a 180 from Born This Way. Not because the latter hurt her, but because that era will stand the test of time and be remembered more fondly in hindsight, and in order for that to happen she needs to leave that era alone and focus on her next evolution. She'll definitely be doing that with ARTPOP, I think she got everything she needed to say out on the table with BTW so now she can move on.
I sort of agree. With The Fame Monster, Gaga rode the line between radio fodder and smart pop music very well. She took elements from both and created something that was appealing to both high brow music critics and typical radio listeners. That is what was so amazing with Gaga at the time.
With Born This Way, I feel that she became overly confident in herself as a ~~true artiste~ and abandoned her mainstream pop appeal in favor of a half baked attempt at something dark, thought provoking, and meaningful. She ended up pleasing no one with that.
<+)O Robido O(+>
Member
Child really? I'm nauseous. What kind of stockholm syndrome shit is this?
Soulscribe
Member
It's completely true though. Com-PLETE-ly.
If gay listeners are so insecure that they wanna shun an advocate for being an advocate then that's only going to get a laugh from me. Coz as far as I see in the hetero-normative world she's been called everything from a philanthropist to a faux-politician. Her "pandering" has worked tremendously for her image but evidently her gay fans were pissed.
Gay men hating other gay men confirmed I guess.
Meh I simply dislike Gaga for her schticks not for the Gay Pandering crap. She is pretty much the Marilyn Manson of Pop with the "Shock" videos and looks. Her music itself isnt bad but isnt the greatest as some girls say. The Fame/ Fame Monster>>> BTW any day of the week but the album ain't flawless.
<+)O Robido O(+>
Member
Well when fans, much like yourself, make it seem as NO ONE did ANYTHING about gay rights before gaga came on the scene. Or she's as central to the GRM as whatever, perhaps you can see how it would rub people the wrong way. Add to that, the fact that gaga fan will not shut up about her, it grates. Many celebs over the years have contributed to the cause, not many have let their celebrity get in front of the cause. Just because the straights said something about it or see it a certain way because someone else straight said something doesn't make her the next Martin Luther King.
While I do not disparage anyone willing to be an outspoken voice for the gay community, I maintain my right to praise OR criticize their merits or intentions, just as I do with the black community or the religious community.
I don't deny the good in Gaga being outspoken for gay rights, because she's ALWAYS been for gay rights and equality in general. From the very day she stepped on the scene. Back before it was her self-righteous credo and more of a matter-of-fact part of who she was. TF/FM Lady Gaga was Queer. The whole world knew and she did nothing to hide it. Fucking awesome. She was doing more than enough--more than was expected of fledgling pop star--even back then.
What I dislike about the BTW era is how Gaga took that queer identity and queer advocacy and wrapped it into her OWN BRANDING. Suddenly it wasn't just about queer rights, it was about her. It was about her music. It was about being a "Monster." And along with advocating for equality she did a whole lot to further marginalize the community.
It was selfish and just as much about pushing her image as it was about giving a single fuck about our community. I will continue to think that. I have every RIGHT to fucking think that, and I will not be shamed for not getting in goddamn line behind any old dirty, disrespectful hunk of trash from Yonkers just because they claim to fly my flag. Just as I wouldn't be caught dead supporting Al Sharpton and heading his words just because he claims to give a fuck about black people, and not about lining his pockets with our money.
So you can have a seat with that nonsense, sis.
She also supported gay rights during her Fame/Monster days, though, and people knew it. People knew she was a gay rights activist in 2009-2010 and that was a big part of her identity.
When BTW (song) came out, it just felt like Gaga was going "DID I MENTION THE GAY COMMUNITY IS AMAZING GUYS?? I LOVE GAYS! YAY GAYS!!" It felt like she wasn't supporting gays to support gays anymore, but to further support herself
fake edit
o
basically what roy said
When BTW (song) came out, it just felt like Gaga was going "DID I MENTION THE GAY COMMUNITY IS AMAZING GUYS?? I LOVE GAYS! YAY GAYS!!" It felt like she wasn't supporting gays to support gays anymore, but to further support herself
fake edit
o
basically what roy said
Soulscribe
Member
I don't give her sole credit for anything. As I said, she is a "footnote" in our recent social change. People have come before her who bravely spoke out well before it was popular to do so (Madonna anyone?) but where Gaga gets her credit comes from the fact that she helped snowball support as the trend finally started sloping upwards. Her advocacy came at the exact time when an overwhelming outpouring of support was necessary, and that timing helped propel the issue to the forefront. She was advocating during a time when not a lot of other people in music were doing so, and it was HER who overwhelming caused a trend in the music space toward that stand. So no, she's in no way a pioneer of social justice nor was she the first to speak out for gay rights. She WAS however the MOST outspoken advocate during that time and the rousing dedication she had to it (even as people who fell under that advocacy group were turned off by it... for some stupid reason) in spite of the potential to alienate large sums of people is really fucking commendable. She was the most popular celebrity on the planet and she centered her entire ALBUM around gay rights. Not even Madonna has done that.
First of all, the bolded is not true. While pop music fans and a hefty portion of the general population knew or at least assumed so, it wasn't until BTW that mainstream caught on.
Secondly, I have absolutely no problem with your justification. Your opinion isn't baseless like the people I was actually referring to, and even though I don't agree with your justification (I think she blurred the line between her fans and gay people a bit too much but that was only because her fans WERE overwhelmingly gay, and what she said therefore applied) what you said is a totally justifiable reason to not like her. What I have a problem with however, is the number of gay pop fans who lashed out at her for pandering to gay people, not because she was selfish, but because she was addressing gay people TOO much. I'm just not convinced that there's a reason that so many people were turned off by her for un-shallow reasons. It seemed evident that gay pop fans want a pop star who's tacitly on their side but who won't actively speak her mind about it unless it was necessary. In Gaga's case, though it obviously wasn't necessary, it was still very effective, and in a very good way.
<+)O Robido O(+>
Member
NEW ICONIC JANSUS TERRI VIDEO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YIpQbKs5lMs
That video editing...
This.
We all know she was here for the gays. When she made that speech in front of the White House etc. but yeah the "HEY GUYZ GAYZ>>>" it's like bitch can you just give us MINDLESS BOPS? Who cares about a damn message. We KNOW you had that message.
EDIT: These monthly BTW discussions literally are the same typed differently. ARTPOP will cleanse us of that album. She PROMISED
I BELIEVE IN HER. Bitch you better not let me down again. Take your crown back and make me want to reconsider you as my #1 again.
This.
We all know she was here for the gays. When she made that speech in front of the White House etc. but yeah the "HEY GUYZ GAYZ>>>" it's like bitch can you just give us MINDLESS BOPS? Who cares about a damn message. We KNOW you had that message.
EDIT: These monthly BTW discussions literally are the same typed differently. ARTPOP will cleanse us of that album. She PROMISED
I BELIEVE IN HER. Bitch you better not let me down again. Take your crown back and make me want to reconsider you as my #1 again.
I'm ready for more of this.
Although I do think you see it as she was the most outspoken because of her POWER at the time. HONESTLY I don't think her contribution was any more significant than Kathy Griffin's I'm sorry. :/ Kathy is a wonderful gay rights activist and has done more than her in that department.
Soulscribe
Member
This.
We all know she was here for the gays. When she made that speech in front of the White House etc. but yeah the "HEY GUYZ GAYZ>>>" it's like bitch can you just give us MINDLESS BOPS? Who cares about a damn message. We KNOW you had that message.
EDIT: These monthly BTW discussions literally are the same typed differently. ARTPOP will cleanse us of that album. She PROMISED
I BELIEVE IN HER. Bitch you better not let me down again. Take your crown back and make me want to reconsider you as my #1 again.
Sis, gays already knew. The straight community didn't. That's my point. What she did was effective because Born This Way was on the radio. Because a shit ton of people bought it and listened to it. So yes, the message may have been worthless to you since you knew she had it but it was worthwhile for everyone else that may not have known previously (the same people who vote for your marriage rights, btw).
We have this conversation all the time but I just came in here to say that BTW gets a bad wrap because it generally wasn't the direction fans wanted her to go in, but I think once ARTPOP comes out and she's moved on to another aesthetic and message, people will look back at BTW as the red-headed stepchild in her repertoire. It's the dark oddball album that nobody understood, but it'll be adored by the fans. Mark my words.
<+)O Robido O(+>
Member
i <3 Kathy Griffin!
Soulscribe
Member
BTW is an amazing album. What's with all the hate
This is why we can't have nice things.
Let's just go home and listen to BTW and 4 together sis <3
The straight community comment I can actually agree with that. But also another thing that plagued that song was the constant reminder that it was a copy of Express Yourself. The media had lots of fun with that. The song like the album was very polarizing indeed.
she's the only comedian I ever checked for OMG xDchronos4590
Member
Obviously don't post here, but i had to repost for all this truth in here. Especially the bold parts.
Also i think her message comes from a very privileged point of view, growing up in the upper east side with the people that have money and going to school only a few blocks away from the gay neighborhood in NYC. Something about it seemed like, things will be totally fine and while its a good message to send to people i don't think I've ever seen her give a true critical analysis or thought on what queer people go through in terms of acceptance. Outside of bullying i don't think we've really seen her go down into the harsh realities we face, and seeing how things can be improved or how to help in that part of the reality that didn't seem to just want to complement her image and not something truly genuine( at least during the BTW era). Her message often comes off somewhat like how i feel with the it gets better project (but that's another conversation). Filled with empty promises and unrealistic ideas, overly fantastical with no real sense of reality and genuine thought. Messages that are started by the LGBT community, seemingly and increasingly covered and taken over by straight "allies". She could be doing much more but it seems like shes just doing what is convenient at the moment, especially on what and where the media is covering.
Majmun
Member
I'm so glad Bey and Gaga can actually have some creative freedom. Both faves tried something different with their last albums and I loved it.
So yeah, meet me at my place. BTW 4 Life <3
Wait this is EXACTLY what it is ... I didnt even think of it till now. Wow thanks for sharing your point of view. This is one comment I fully agree with.
My hubby and his #Power
<+)O Robido O(+>
Member
I can't with the It Gets Better mess... Ugh.
My favorite video in the subject by Kingsley. If you don't have the youtube plug in, he link is on the period. lol.
Soulscribe
Member
The It Gets Better project was actually very effective for its target demographic. A have a young family member who almost committed suicide last year and he confided in me about this project and how it helped. He also confided in me about Gaga being an inspiring person at the time. If certain things don't resonate with you, you shouldn't assume that they don't resonate with anyone.
chronos4590
Member
Dan Giraffe Neck Savage created a campaign with his husband or something. After fellow common folk gay people made videos with the campaign, celebrities, especially straight celebs and sports teams got on the bandwagon and made empty worded videos talking about their "support". It was the cool new campaign to support so you don't look like a bigot Only to find out many of the team members didn't know what they were filming about. Celebs ended up looking like fools with this new campaign. GLAAD was eating that shit up and the creator of the mess himself, Geoffrey the giraffe keeps being honored along side with his transphobic views and more straight celebs for "Changing their views" on gay and lesbian people. #mess
When the campaign came to the LGBT community, its wonderful. Inspiring even, but then mass media ruined it basically and reduced it to cheap videos to make them look supportive
nnnn expose those faux trend followers
The rare moments where popgaf has a serious conversation and you want to divert it?
Maybe because its starting to move from Pop Music more to the LGBT. I do agree its a serious conversation and a good one at that but I can see this moving to something outside of the purpose of this thread and us getting a warning.
Mumei isn't going to warn about a conversation like this. He only starts hovering when we engage in conversations that would otherwise result in a ban elsewhere, such as our occasional gaming shade/stanning, or some really messy stuff. I think it's perfectly fine if we have the occasional outside discussion as long as its productive, interesting, and not causing any ruckus. Personally, I am fascinated with what popgaf thinks on this subject since I am an outsider looking in.
Matt_
World's #1 One Direction Fan: Everyone else in the room can see it, everyone else but you~~~
Did the BTW era come about the same time the It Gets Better campaign peaked, or before/after?
Just wondering whether Gaga might have promoted the pro gay aspect of herself so strongly because of the wave of pro-gay behavior in the media, or whether the influx of it gets better videos came after
Just wondering whether Gaga might have promoted the pro gay aspect of herself so strongly because of the wave of pro-gay behavior in the media, or whether the influx of it gets better videos came after
Phonomezer
Banned
yall do know that Born This Way isn't just focus on being gay right?
Maybe not the main focus but its there and evident. Also using the vile BTW as the first single made it worse.
I need more of them together. smh
Dr. Luke should take his spot *giggles*
PowderedToast
Junior Member
as a bi and trans person, i've always felt BTW was slightly pandering and possibly disingenuous, but it appeals to me so much that i can't resist it. sometimes i can't decide whether it's mass market or completely exclusive. it all sits with me much better when i imagine young teenagers listening to 'hair' and being genuinely roused and inspired by it.
idk. pop stars should convey messages that can be received on both a personal and universal level. gaga may not be on the level of michael jackson (for me she lacks both the sincerity and intelligence) but at least she's trying, AND she's consistent - which is more that can be said for the likes of katy perry.
idk. pop stars should convey messages that can be received on both a personal and universal level. gaga may not be on the level of michael jackson (for me she lacks both the sincerity and intelligence) but at least she's trying, AND she's consistent - which is more that can be said for the likes of katy perry.
ww.ARTPOPisnevercomingout.MIA.jpg
Ke$ha does that with "Animal"
It didn't, it actually solidified her message. She kept talking about gay rights, bravery, and loving yourself all through her TFM era but it was quite jarring when all her songs were about sex and dancing. Her tour was like long ass Alejandro video where the preaching didnt match the song. She got Born This Way out there and made it more than just an album/single, she made it her brand for her philanthropist work so now she can continue on with her songs about sex and dancing while having established a foundation in which to carry on her preaching. The album/single was needed, she lost fans especially here in the US but also gained a substantial amount of them world wide that take her message and her mark. Basically Born This Way helped her solidified a fanbase that will carry her on even if its just as a touring artist. Its better than just putting out hit singles early on in your carrier but then end up a Lotus later due to the lack of appeal.
- Status