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[blu]

If we were able to break down that white women vote along income and education, I think it would provide a much clearer picture. White people don't really identify themselves along racial lines. That's the advantage of being white, the don't have to. They identify themselves by social standing. So instead of saying "why did white women vote for trump", we should really be asking "why did poorer people vote for trump", or "why did uneducated people vote for trump", or "why did the super rich vote for trump".

That's what is frustrating about this conversation to me. It's based on a misunderstanding of the data.

Americans can learn from the Brits here. At least remain-Brits realize it wasn't people of skin tone that got them into that mess, but those of under-educated and nationalistic standing.

Exit polls show 1/2 of America's white women are undereducated. But so are people who didn't bother to vote (lest they'd have known what their inaction could cause). Are all those non-voters white too?

 

[Messofanego]

what the fuck does it mean to "stay home and do the work of BE[ing] an ally" mean? tweeting? is that person legitimately arguing that pithy woke tweets are going to do more good than fucking marching?

It means convincing people at home or close to you to not become Trump supporters. It means to educate them. It doesn't mean tweeting is better than marching. Marching is good and all, and that energy needs to be transferred at home too instead of just one event. Keep fighting privately, not just publicly.

 

[Rentahamster]

In the end Republicans still voted. Democrats don't.

Not by much. Trump also won independents by relatively large margins in rust belt states, which contributed to his electoral victory.

Republicans fall in line. They always do.

The funny thing is, if you look at ultra-conservative sources like talk radio, they say the same thing about Democrats too.

 

[patapuf]

This is crazy logic. "We weren't pure enough! That's why we lost!" is a terrible reading of the situation.

Perhaps those "fake" allies aren't actually fake, but simply not as ideologically extreme as you on every single issue?

I was being sarcastic.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Instead of being mad at the sign we should ask why the majority voted for trump.

Sure, but what's the answer to why? I'm as perplexed as the next person why people voted for a shitstain like Trump, no matter of rhetoric is changing that. If you have the answer I'm all ears but I haven't heard any yet except 53% of white women would have to be racist which if that's the case I have no clue how to fix that except hopefully the % of white people in the US as a % of the total drops quicker than predicted.

 

[Trey]

These are not the same thing. Being responsible to our community (the well being of others) is the foundation of progressive thought. But this idea that I as an individual must be responsible for the conduct of another individual because I share a demographic trait with them, is just a weaselly way to get at race theory. I am responsible for my actions and I am responsible for the actions of those who I support. How can I be responsible for the actions of someone who I opposed?

And that call for self-reflection? Yeah, that's what I've been calling for in all of these threads. But self-reflection is for everyone, not just the privileged. And calls for self-reflection that are not coupled with empathy, that are in fact, often coupled with derision for the very concept of empathy, just show that you are more interested in demeaning others than you are with actually figuring out a way for us to grow the movement and overcome.

It is, too, fundamental that we accept responsibility for the actions (and failures) of our fellow Americans as well. Even the ones we disagree with - perhaps especially them. We're all in this together, whether we like it or not.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Never call out white people aka white fragility

Can you back up for a minute and explain what purpose this tweet is supposed to serve?

Because to me, it's not just "calling out white people." It's calling out the specific white people who are already marching in solidarity with the cause.

If there's some kind of benefit to this smugness directed at those who are likely to already be your allies, then it certainly escapes me.

 

[Metaphor for Giant Robot]

So what I'm gathering from this thread, there should be no complaining when the next BLM march comes up????

 

[Merc_]

Except that's really not it.

The left has been virtue signaling to an insane degree even prior to the election. It's a non stop "we are so holy and if you don't agree with everything we say you suck". Problem for them is that the left then often goes in and attacks itself because frankly humans aren't going to always agree on everything and then just keeps pushing their own party further and further apart. Look at the shit storm that went down with Bernie.

I mean hey if that's the strategy the left wants to use go for it, but it probably does not bode well at all for the election in 4 years

Eh, I feel how the election will go in 4 years has more to do with how Trump preforms then anything else. All the infighting here at the beginning of Trump presidency won't mean shit as long as Trump fucks up and the Dems run someone people won't be so easily talked into hating.

 

[.JayZii]

The way people interpret statistics is so weird. I guess those 47% don't count because reasons.

 

[Impeccable]

Never call out white people aka white fragility

I will be honest and I have said this before on the subject that not being inclusive in movements actively makes a lot of people ask "Why bother?"

The amount of times I see a post on here and ask something to learn you get shot down with a snarky comment it has come to the point where I just don't want to bother engaging not because of my ego is bruised or I am fragile but I am personally tired of feeling like no matter how much I want to help or improve my understand it's met by things like this.

You guys ARE alienating more than you are educating. If I am feeling the way I do I can only imagine how the actual fragile ones do.

 

[Nepenthe]

We actually did attack a Nazi in a viral display by punching him in his stupid fucking face.

We were subsequently attacked by our allies for not giving a shit or even cheering on the fact that a Nazi was punched in his stupid fucking face.

Nazis are a problem. But that problem is made worse by the moral absolutist enablers who exist on our side too.

EDIT: You know what? I'll do you one better. Let's not even muddy the waters with an assault, because I feel the lawful goods coming. Remember the thread about the guy who screamed "No!" over a Nazi who was trying to promote minority genocide? Remember the people who were trying to make it out like the ally talking over him was as much of a problem?

Milquetoast, concern-trolling allies decrease our effectiveness to act and stick up for the downtrodden.

 

[Futureman]

It bothers me, because I am being generalized and it bothers me because I know it is just going to hurt ourselves more than anything.

so you think this will push more white liberals to vote for Trump in 2020 than make white liberals become more politically aware/active?

I doubt it but what do I know.

 

[jakonovski]

Can you back up for a minute and explain what purpose this tweet is supposed to serve?

The only logical explanation is that every individual white female voter split their one vote into two parts of 0.53 and 0.47.

 

[Count Dookkake]

If there's some kind of benefit to this smugness directed at those who are likely to already be your allies, then it certainly escapes me.

Dopamine hits from the rush of likes.

 

[KazenY2J]

I hate that fucking sign. Yes we know that white women voted Trump, but the ones that opposed that asshole have every right that we do to be upset with the situation and to protest his orange ass right along side us. Shit feels super fucking lame, like someones working overtime to get all the people that agree with each other to squabble amongst themselves.

#NotAllWhiteWomen

 

[NoRéN]

I hate that fucking sign. Yes we know that white women voted Trump, but the ones that opposed that asshole have every right that we do to be upset with the situation and to protest his orange ass right along side us. Shit feels super fucking lame, like someones working overtime to get all the people that agree with each other to squabble amongst themselves.

Exactly. I just don't get the point of trying to piss off your allies because someone who looks like them is on the opposite side.

 

[plagiarize]

Someone already told you it wasn't the only reason, but a contributing factor. Good job failing to be even remotely introspective about the very thing people in this thread are criticizing liberals like the ones in the OP for.

Again, waiting for any introspection from you. You just assigned blame to other people, and continued to say harmful stuff like 'Bernie was the only progressive on economic issues' which is 100% divisive language. If you are going to infer that there are only so many 'real progressives' in the dnc and it's supporters your basically looking for a witch hunt, when if there was ever a time for the left and the center to come together it's fucking now.

 

[CrazyHorse]

Most of the anti-Trump people do not share those ridiculous views. White women who wen tot that march know that.

 

[Harmen]

Well, as a white (guy) I think it is my responsibility to have a dialogue with other white people about racism and try to prevent it from occurring to the extent I can. I also think it is fair to acknowledge whatever privilege I (without knowing) have and try to do whatever I can to alter that for equality. I, however, can't change how other people vote and nor can I control how people think. I don't think it is right to hold me accountable for the shit other people pull because I am white as well. I think this mentality of "60% of your demographic did something wrong, why are you here protesting it" is only contributing to further division and toxicity.

 

[Rumblebones]

The left needs to decide whether they want to be right or want to win. Liberals tearing at liberals for so long has been a massive contributing factor to the state of politics in society, across the whole goddamned globe.

Infighting achieves nothing at this point. What is needed now more than ever is unity and focus. The rest can't be made to matter in the grand scheme of things. The elements at play won't allow that and the liberals to win. It's one or the other.

 

[Obliterator]

Eh, I feel how the election will go in 4 years has more to do with how Trump preforms then anything else. All the infighting here at the beginning of Trump presidency won't mean shit as long as Trump fucks up and the Dems run someone people won't be so easily talked into hating.

Yeah that's true, I'm more saying if this sort of thing continues. People are pissed Trump won (understandably) and are looking for an outlet to blame.

I more mean if this continues. You are seeing lots of infighting with the left and you did even up until the lead up to election. With Obama the entire base was incredibly energized and on board with the candidate. The first cracks really started showing when it came down to Bernie vs Hilary and things started getting toxic in their own community.

Dems need a strong candidate in 4 years and for Trump to perform badly. Frankly people can keep up all this infighting you want but it will get people nowhere. Find another Obama (easier said than done) and the election is won.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

So can we expect this kind of solidarity when minorities march?

 

[Dude Abides]

We actually did attack a Nazi in a viral display by punching him in his stupid fucking face.

We were subsequently attacked by our allies for not giving a shit or even cheering on the fact that a Nazi was punched in his stupid fucking face.

Nazis are a problem. But that problem is made worse by the moral absolutist enablers who exist on our side too.

"We didn't." One white guy did. By the principle of collective ethnic responsibility all white people deserve the credit for it.

 

[Infinite]

I will be honest and I have said this before on the subject that not being inclusive in movements actively makes a lot of people ask "Why bother?"

The amount of times I see a post on here and ask something to learn you get shot down with a snarky comment it has come to the point where I just don't want to bother engaging not because of my ego is bruised or I am fragile but I am personally tired of feeling like no matter how much I want to help or improve my understand it's met by things like this.

You guys ARE alienating more than you are educating. If I am feeling the way I do I can only imagine how the actual fragile ones do.

All those "trump is gonna win 2020" and "liberals never fall in line" aren't helpful either and are alienating to me.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I was being sarcastic.

My apologies then. It's pretty hard to tell in these threads.

 

[fart town usa]

I've never seen anyone imply that it is that simple. In fact, whenever I see white privilege brought up, it's brought up in the context of it's very existence, not the nature of it's existence. Minorities just want white people to acknowledge that it exists, not the individualistic way in which it benefitted one particular person.

OK. So it's entirely possible to recognize that it exists. Which, I have and I do. As do many others. I would feel like the extent it goes in benefiting your life as a whole would be the key to it's significance. Because to recognize it isn't enough in most cases. The privilege has to be laid out bare and atoned for.

Obviously, as a white guy who drives a decent car, I don't worry about police. I recognize that privilege and it is indeed a privilege. Outside of that, my life isn't inherently better because I'm white. I can say this because I know my economic background, my parents background, and my background as an adult. Obviously, for some the privilege can be much more significant. To me, that's a class struggle, moreso than privilege based on being white. However, race definitely falls into this class struggle. I personally think white privilege is largely overblown because my research and what I've read has led me to believe that the underlying issue is an economic class struggle. But that's just me.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

Never call out white people aka white fragility

"500,000 people marching shoulder to shoulder with people of all stripes against sexism and fascism" is not "never".

 

[UCBooties]

"I would have supported you having equal and full rights and not being murdered by the state, but you made a mean sign so fuck you."

- White liberals, 2017.

Ok, so you can be super reductionist and paint a whole huge group of people with generalizations (something you would never accept if it was done to you) and tell them how terrible they are. Mission accomplished.

What are you trying to accomplish here?

 

[lightskintwin]

I mean even Bill Maher asked Jane Fonda why over 50 percent of White women voters voted for Trump.

 

[Lesath]

I am honestly baffled by the response of GAF on this, given the sheer ridicule we have for #notallmen with regards to the perpetuation of rape culture, something I will admit I grappled with but got the fuck over.

From my standpoint, it seems ridiculously patronizing for those in a position of power to look down their noses and say, "don't generalize all of us, we should get along to further our cause" as if their cross was just as heavy and their stake just as high, whether it is from men to women or from white women to minority women. The idea that "you don't want to turn people away", as if willful ignorance and unhurt feelings are things we should be willing to accept in order to make strides in justice and equality is incredibly uncomfortable me at a visceral level, although the pragmatist in me sees the point.

 

[patapuf]

so you think this will push more white liberals to vote for Trump in 2020 than make white liberals become more politically aware/active?

I doubt it but what do I know.

I really doubt attacking people who protest against trump for being "fakes" is going to make them more politically active or help with gaining new followers.

 

[jakonovski]

So can we expect this kind of solidarity when minorities march?

Of course not, and then you're going to complain about it on the internet. These things follow fairly predictable dynamics you know.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

White fragility thread 2: electric Boogaloo

So much to unpack in this thread and what it actually means to be an ally

The reaction to this thread demonstrates how white feminism is white supremacy. It seems y'all would rather WOC be silenced.

In activist circles, there's a lot of criticisms of cishet black men, and they're valid af. As a cishet black man, I don't dismiss them out of hand or defer to some reactionary "not all black men".

Do better.

 

[Nepenthe]

"We didn't." One white guy did. By the principle of collective ethnic responsibility all white people deserve the credit for it.

Not like the gear's been switched in terms of the way America operates. =P

 

[Aaronology]

Yeah. Probably.

BLM Protestors arrested in MN:

Every BLM rally I've been to has been full of white people. My beef with the bigotry from the majority of white America is not going to make me attack, counter-productively, the people who are fighting it right along side me. That's the trap actual racists want us to fall in to.

 

[Cybit]

Despite the pussy comments, I think it's pretty clear that religious and racial lines were far stronger in terms of determining voting patterns than gender was. You stats are true, but it could also be interpreted that being a woman is a large offset to the whiteness factor that generally leans Republican considering how much of the white male vote went to him.

Education was the largest single correlative factor IIRC

I understand the point, and I'm not a delicate flower that takes everything personally. But something has to change.

White people, and I am generalizing, need to do better at acknowledging their inherent advantages in American society. You can't get offended or hurt when you're confronted with it.

I actually can believe that there are ' closeted ' Trump supporters. I live in Washington DC and you are hurting yourself socially and professionally to be on the right in a highly liberal town. Particularly now with the high level of polarization.

White and black people need to stop with the incessant virtue signaling. A lot of these threads end up looking like a competition for the most woke award. You're not going to change anyone with that, but you are guaranteed to alienate them and maybe make someone who was previously indifferent swing the opposite way. If you shout down, mock, and insult people who disagree with you they are just going to tune you out, or react negatively.

White people I think have real trouble comprehending the fear that Black people, particularly men feel everyday in this country. I was married to a black woman and my son is mixed race. We took a vacation to Myrtle Beach one summer. Some of the looks, and treatment we received there was disturbing. I realized how lucky I was to grow up in an area where there isn't that kind of racial divide, and overt racism. I'm also certain that as a white man what I experienced there was a drop in a big bucket every black person carries.

I believe that multiculturalism is the ideal to aspire to. Some are quick to embrace it, some have prejudice that makes it far more challenging . As humans, we have to generalize and make judgments on things we see in life to function, but you can't stop learning and changing.

White privilege and fragility are entirely real. Tim Wise is a good guy to check out to understand the meaning behind it. Almost all the women in my family participated in the protest, three generations of them. I think they are good, honest people. If it's bad that they demonstrated against Trump, I'm not sure where to go from there.

A+ Post. As a south asian male (shaved off my beard on Saturday morning, cuz, well, ain't exactly a safe thing to have) - we do have a major problem with virtue signaling, especially across social media. I don't know who everyone is trying to impress, but I'd rather they spend less time trying to impress people on social media and more time fucking calling their reps and senators (and state legislators and even the damn mayor) and reminding them that there are electoral costs to screwing your voters.

If only this pushback against purity tests among the left existed back in early November

Hell, I didn't like Clinton (Worked for Obama in 04 and 08, and it was hard not to hate Clinton after the 08 primary) - but still went and worked for her this election. We're in a two party system, we don't have the luxury of purity tests, and never had.

 

[LionPride]

So can we expect this kind of solidarity when minorities march?

.....

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

so you think this will push more white liberals to vote for Trump in 2020 than make white liberals become more politically aware/active?

I doubt it but what do I know.

I mean, do you believe the reverse? Do you honestly think rhetoric like this will change the hearts and minds of the 53% that voted Trump? I mean if you're doing it just to lash out because you're angry then own it but don't masquerade it like you're making a difference and being socially active and making a change when you're just lashing out and trying to insult people.

 

[International Iron Man]

Ok, so you can be super reductionist and paint a whole huge group of people with generalizations (something you would never accept if it was done to you) and tell them how terrible they are. Mission accomplished.

What are you trying to accomplish here?

Summed up the post I quoted. That's what was said, I just got rid of all the extra fluff.

 

[MistakenMobius]

Would people accept this kind of generalization toward Muslim?

Not and rightfully so.
As someone living outside the us and being undefined ( people have thought I was from Latvia to Lebanon to Central Asia)
The will of Americans to put everyone is crazy.

 

[Trey]

Because to me, it's not just "calling out white people." It's calling out the specific white people who are already marching in solidarity with the cause.

If there's some kind of benefit to this smugness directed at those who are likely to already be your allies, then it certainly escapes me.

The rhetoric is a call to action to not just protest Trump, but to also call out the majority of voting white women on their support of an incompetent, foolish, misogynist. And it's a response to the ongoing criticism of modern feminism, particularly its issues with intersectionality.

 

[Night Angel]

The statistics might be true, but using them to browbeat the people actively protesting seems a bit ridiculous given the likelihood that anyone protesting is part of the ~50% of women who voted against Trump.

You're basically shaming/shouting down a bunch of people who agree with you because people who aren't there and don't give a shit did thing you don't like.

Unsurprisingly, people don't like being treated like they're part of the problem when they're working as hard as they know how to be the solution. You can call that white fragility, I'll call it you being an asshole.

 

[Koodo]

Honestly, this shit is like the worst thing everyone could really do right now. Shit sucks, but is it really necessary to attack your fellow allies, instead of... you know, the Neo Nazis? Instead of blaming a very broad demographic or whatever, maybe... JUST MAYBE, there's something more important to do than wrongly attack your fellow marchers for what the women that don't have their own interests at heart did? Those women aren't going to be at the march.

This sign exists precisely because the concept of "allies" is in question. Yes, they're marching side by side but under no circumstance is this assurance that white women will be lending their support to black and non-white women outside the march or to issues that do not affect the reality of being a white woman.

How many of these white women do you expect to see as "allies" in a BLM march?

How many of these white women do you expect will be speaking out when their black and non-white "allies" get paid even less in the workplace?

Unfortunately, the answer is usually nowhere as much as it should be – if it were, you wouldn't see a person of colour bringing to light the issue in the first place. This isn't a petty contest, this is simply a minority pleading with you to realize that something is WRONG.

 

[rjinaz]

Can you back up for a minute and explain what purpose this tweet is supposed to serve?



Because to me, it's not just "calling out white people." It's calling out the specific white people who are already marching in solidarity with the cause.

If there's some kind of benefit to this smugness directed at those who are likely to already be your allies, then it certainly escapes me.

To that tweet, there is none. It definitely comes cross as " we don't want you there"

I feel like White folks like myself should recognize our advantage, but we don't. It's reality.

Republicans have been winning because they embrace the non-reality. They don't care if things are the way they should be as long as they get theirs and keep winning. Like it or not people don't like to look at their own faults or have others judge them. I feel like Democrats need to take the same kind of strategy. Not so much deny reality, but put the greater cause above their own personal grievances, at least when it matters most like at elections. Recognize, educate, debate, but don't point and don't isolate. Because in a Trump world, I'm not so sure we can afford to anymore. Us White folks are definitely the cause of this, and it does suck that minorities can't call it out for what it is, I won't lie. But doing that almost entirely ensures the wrong side keeps winning.

 

[gregor7777]

The Left is in shambles with in-fighting, primarily over race. Donald did his job well.

 

[Enzom21]

Sure, but what's the answer to why? I'm as perplexed as the next person why people voted for a shitstain like Trump, no matter of rhetoric is changing that. If you have the answer I'm all ears but I haven't heard any yet except 53% of white women would have to be racist which if that's the case I have no clue how to fix that except hopefully the % of white people in the US as a % of the total drops quicker than predicted.

They voted for Trump because they saw the demographics of the country changing and Trump's racist rhetoric spoke directly to that fear.
Having to compete with other white people is one thing but having to compete with non-whites on an even playing field, that's too much.
They felt that any Democrat would continue to push for equality and that was unacceptable.
There is no fixing it. We have to focus on the people who didn't vote for a racist. We get them to vote next time and everyone who voted for Trump can fuck off.

 

[Unspeakable Evil]

This thread is super depressing when realize what it just boils down to.

 

[blu]

I mean even Bill Maher asked Jane Fonda why over 50 percent of White women voters voted for Trump.

That's a very good question, and a necessary step to finding the solution. Again, we can seek the roots in under-education and religious skew. What do you say?

 

[Forearm Star]

"Minorities didn't vote".

It's okay WW I get why you think people are fucking dumbasses for just lumping everyone up into one group.