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[Nista]

In all honesty it's likely that the 47% of white women who voted Hillary have little to no social contact with the 53% of white women who voted Trump. It's not entirely clear to me what this line of argument is meant to accomplish.

This is what annoys me, as a white woman who currently lives in the OC, I don't run in typical republican voter circles at all. The only people I talk to day to day that could have possibly voted for Trump are other gamers online. Also that a big chunk of the people I know who went to the DC march were from various places in MD and NOVA, which are heavily democratic locations.

We personally didn't have any negative interactions at the march, or on the trains to and from DC. Even the non--marching DC residents we talked to were happy that so many people were there to stand up for everyone's rights.

We did have some random white dude with a flag yelling "God Bless Trump", who just got random eyerolls from all the ladies walking past him. But that was way outside the March near Chinatown Metro.

 

[nelsonroyale]

That is idiotic and shameful...

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

Maybe I'm crazy but I'm pretty sure you thinking that every white woman is privileged and blinded to the realities of the world is something that might need to be applied to yourself.

To assume that all white people are better off, in my opinion, is a form of privilege in itself. Because it clearly is a privilege to be so ignorant to think that an entire group of people have such a better life based solely on their gender and skin color.

To be white is to have certain privileges that people of color do not, thus white women are privileged. That doesn't mean that all white women are better off than all black women.

 

[ahoyhoy]

Maybe we could enroll democrats in a game theory online class.

Lol it seems us liberals will always elect to betray. Too much diversity of opinions compared to conservatism.

 

[Fuchsdh]

So is this topic going to become like the White Fragility topic Part 2?

I mean I 100% believe most of the women who marched this weekend did not vote for Trump and I personally wouldn't have pointed my ire at them like that tweet. That doesn't change the FACT that most white women voted for Trump. That has to be pointed out, internalized and discussed. If you (I'm speaking in general) did your part on November 8 and voted for Clinton, stop getting butthurt when someone points out the factual (this is the important part) actions of most people who look like you and lets work together to stymie the Trump administration.

As pointed out, the "fact" that most white women voted for Trump is not actually a fact, but an estimation.

Unfortunately a main facet of being Progressive is an inherent belief that you better than those who aren't with you 100%, so thats not gonna happen.

Again, I don't think it's a progressive-only failing (let's go to church and sniff some self-righteousness!) I do think that if you identify as a liberal you have to hold yourself to a higher standard, however.

This is what annoys me, as a white woman who currently lives in the OC, I don't run in typical republican voter circles at all. The only people I talk to day to day that could have possibly voted for Trump are other gamers online. Also that a big chunk of the people I know who went to the DC march were from various places in MD and NOVA, which are heavily democratic locations.

We personally didn't have any negative interactions at the march, or on the trains to and from DC. Even the non--marching DC residents we talked to were happy that so many people were there to stand up for everyone's rights.

We did have some random white dude with a flag yelling "God Bless Trump", who just got random eyerolls from all the ladies walking past him. But that was way outside the March near Chinatown Metro.

And I think this is also where you get some of the "devouring one's own", because they're the only targets in reach. While I know probably one family friend who most likely voted Trump, since the election literally my only real interaction on political topics with Trump voters has been friends of friends on Facebook. All the women and friends I know who went to the march were certainly far removed from Trump. So any infighting is absolutely not aimed at the OP's women.

 

[rjinaz]

As a white male democrat living in the suburbs of a state that's 90%+ white, I feel alienated as hell and this kind of stuff just discourages me. I won't betray my values, but it sure sucks when both sides pretty much treat you like the enemy.

I don't think enemy is the right word. The want us White males to acknowledge our faults and admit that we do have it better than they do. I see that sign that woman holds and I think, yeah, we need to do better. I'm in a position of the majority. I look down, they look up always. The old conservative me would have went on a racist tirade about how White's are once again being targeted. Nope. I know better now.

 

[Chococat]

As a white male democrat living in the suburbs of a state that's 90%+ white, I feel alienated as hell and this kind of stuff just discourages me. I won't betray my values, but it sure sucks when both sides pretty much treat you like the enemy.

If you believe in your values, don't take these signs and criticisms to heart. They are coming from a place of pain that you or I have never experience because of our white skin.

Turn it around. Instead of feeling discouraged, ask what more can you do to help.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

Maybe it's been addressed ad nauseum, but when they say 53%, that's of everyone who voted right?

That's not half of American women though, since there's still about 45% that did not vote at all - http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/11/politics/popular-vote-turnout-2016/

By saying 53% of all women support Trump, that means excluding those who didn't vote, and saying they aren't part of the US.

That being said though, that % of voters who didn't vote who are women... well, if they are protesting now, the hard lesson for them to learn is that they have to vote and stay informed in politics.

 

[Wazzy]

I'm all for discussion on how white women can do more to educate other white women, especially in regards to minority issues but I'm not cool with this kind of inflammatory signage attacking protestors for a cause that is for WOMEN. We should be united and the March was a wonderful and positive outcome showing that women will fight back and defend their rights.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

by the time you lot sort yourselves out Barron Trump will be on his 2nd term

 

[Derwind]

Collective ethnic responsibilty is not a fact. And your post is pretty lightweight. No need for any help.

Again, you want to frame it as collective ethnic responsibility. That's your shit.

I say, how about understanding that a majority of elgible white voters voted for Trump is not a fucking myth or an interpretation. That is a FACT.

How you internalize that is how you can grow.

 

[Plum]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1311645

Saying "We need to work on things" is not the same as "You need to reflect on something you never did."

How can you not see this? Neither the tweet nor the sign was about how white women need to talk to each other (even though I disagree, it's literally just the collective racial responsibility argument in a left-leaning wrapper), it was about how, despite voting for Clinton and actively going out to protest for the cause, white women STILL need to reflect on things.

 

[lightskintwin]

It's no different than White women benefiting the most from Affirmative Action yet being amongst it's fiercest opponents, despite the fact the laws were in response to African American civil rights movements and the historical racial economic inequality and opportunity towards African Americans.

http://www.vox.com/2016/5/25/11682950/fisher-supreme-court-white-women-affirmative-action

 

[WaffleTaco]

It's no different than White women benefiting the most from Affirmative Action yet being amongst it's fiercest opponents, despite the fact the laws were in response to the historical racial economic inequality and opportunity towards African Americans.

http://www.vox.com/2016/5/25/11682950/fisher-supreme-court-white-women-affirmative-action

I mean white women are still going to be racist, and sometimes being against Affirmative Action doesn't make you racist, just ignorant.

 

[The Silver]

A sign like that would look better if it was a white woman holding it, it changes it from looking like your shitting on "innocent" people using right wing tactics into calling attention to the fact that "we need to do better".

 

[blu]

Unfortunately a main facet of being Progressive is an inherent belief that you better than those who aren't with you 100%, so thats not gonna happen.

That's a point that takes us to an interesting side of human self-assessment. There are degrees and shades in most human qualities. Progressiveness, not unlike education, can be a dangerous thing - you can be just enough under-educated to consider yourself educated and yet be effectively undereducated for a given context. Likewise with being progressive - you can be somewhat progressive, and that could make you feel isolated from the openly reactionary side of society, but at the same time if you're truly progressive you'd know you need to keep in contact with that part of society and do your best to educate them. Because that's what progressive inherently means.

 

[Koodo]

Marching for the rights of all women can not exclude the narrative that white women have historically shown a worrying level of reduced support or outright antagonism towards black and non-white women – the most egregious example seen at the inception of women's suffrage. The way race intersects gender, which in this case is the privilege of white women over other non-white women, is an issue that needs to be addressed. Asking black and non-white women to ignore a portion of their reality to avoid offending the "sensibilities" of privileged white women is, once again, asking for the erasure of problems affecting minorities.

This sign, and any other callout that illustrates examples of white women using their privilege against the interests of black and non-white women, are necessary. You are NOT for women's rights if it only concerns white women.

 

[Chorazin]

Two days after the Marches and here we are, tearing ourselves apart.

Whereas the White Supremacist "alt-right" have blended into the republican power structure and have a unified front.

How can we hope to defeat them when we can't even unite for more than two days? This is nearly as disheartening than the garbage spewed today from Gundam Spicer.

 

[eggandI]

How is a white woman on the east coast going to convince a white woman Trump supporter in the middle of the country of anything?

Yes. People don't seem to understand that there is a huge divide between liberals and conservatives. As someone else ITT previously said, we mostly live in areas surrounded by like-minded people.

Reaching out to those across the aisle is what politicians, our leaders are supposed to excel at. But criticize the democrat leaders and watch how quickly you'll get attacked by liberals who think we should be attacking fellow voters instead.

 

[Staccat0]

A black woman held the sign that was too real.

This thread ain't about a sign

 

[WaffleTaco]

Marching for the rights of all women can not exclude the narrative that white women have historically shown a worrying level of reduced support or outright antagonism towards black and non-white women – the most egregious example seen at the inception of women's suffrage. The way race intersects gender, which in this case is the privilege of white women over other non-white women, is an issue that needs to be addressed. Asking black and non-white women to ignore a portion of their reality to avoid offending the "sensibilities" of privileged white women is, once again, asking for the erasure of problems affecting minorities.

This sign, and any other callout that illustrates examples of white women using their privilege against the interests of black and non-white women, are necessary. You are NOT for women's rights if it only concerns white women.

White women can still be racist.

 

[lightskintwin]

I mean white women are still going to be racist, and sometimes being against Affirmative Action doesn't make you racist, just ignorant.

Unintentional racism is still racism that hurts other groups.

 

[fart town usa]

To be white is to have certain privileges that people of color do not, thus white women are privileged. That doesn't mean that all white women are better off than all black women.

I'm well aware of how white privilege works. To act like there is a blanket standard of privilege for all white people in general is incredibly naive.

Considering the make up of this country, in terms of region, school systems, economic opportunities, etc. It's simply absurd to act as if there is a standard of privilege that covers the entire nation that is only applicable to white people upon birth.

It's never that simple.

 

[DerangedHermit]

We white people sure don't like to be called out, do we?

But keep posting about how this is all about you personally and how you're being feeling attacked by those signs and tweets.

 

[Netherscourge]

What else can liberals do to convince conservative voters that Republicans are their enemy?

The way I see it, those conservative voters don't care about these issues, or are in fact counter to them, which is exactly why they voted for Trump.

This is as much about numbers as it is core ideology, because most people are dead-set in their ways. Liberals literally need to out-populate conservatives in the electoral districts in order to facilitate and maintain progress.

Being clustered in California or the Northeastern States isn't enough anymore. They're going to have to muscle their way into the Rust Belt, as well as all those bright Red states in the South and Mid-West.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

First, you keep repeating "it's really not that hard to understand" as if we aren't all engaged in a discussion with very evident differences in opinions. You already made a point of attacking me for not understanding because you assumed I was white. Maybe you should tone it down a bit.

White women are exactly the people who should be having that dialogue with other white women. I encourage it, without antagonism, from the outside. This is what we want, for white people to realize they have to address racism and bigotry from their end and to do what they can in their power to oppose it. And that's exactly what these protesters were doing. I fucking applaud that woman you posted, and don't particularly have a problem with the sign she held any more than I do with this:

But that same sign held up by a white person at a BLM rally would evoke a completely different reaction, for reasons that should not have to be expounded on. Context matters. Stop pretending it doesn't. It's really not that hard to understand.

All a black women was point out the obvious, just like 99% of the protesters did with their signs. Nothing about it was antagonizing anyone. It's unfortunate that the Tweet made it look antagonizing but it wasn't. All she did was spit truth.

I'm not calling you stupid btw. I'm sorry my tone came out like that.

Saying "We need to work on things" is not the same as "You need to reflect on something you never did."

How can you not see this? Neither the tweet nor the sign was about how white women need to talk to each other (even though I disagree, it's literally just the collective racial responsibility argument in a left-leaning wrapper), it was about how, despite voting for Clinton and actively going out to protest for the cause, white women STILL need to reflect on things.

There's nothing wrong with reflecting on why a thing happened.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Did any of you guys actually go to one of the marches? This infighting narrative seems way overblown and not at all representative of what was actually on display on Saturday, at least in the march that I was in.

It's incredible to me that not 48 hours after the largest demonstration in U.S. history, with support on all seven continents, and thousands of people -- including people I personally know who have been politically apathetic, if not totally ignorant, until now -- are now mobilizing themselves into grassroots activism and taking action in ways they never even considered before, there are some practically desperate to find any fault lines that they can split them open and then complain about how progressives are their own worst enemy.

Concentrate your time and energy into something more constructive.

I went to the one in Boston not too many black people up there.

 

[Trey]

Claiming that individuals should be held accountable for the actions of other members of their race is the very basis of racist thought. What the fuck is going on here?

you are editorializing. take several steps back because you sound alarmist. I said we should take responsibility for the actions of others. It's an important aspect of any society, any democracy, and any relationship. We are individuals within a greater whole, and with that comes a social pact that our actions have consequences for people other than ourselves. And to better our society, we should encourage constant self reflection and betterment not just for ourselves, but for people in our communities and country. And in order for any of this to be achieved, it starts from the belief that we are in part responsible for others' well being.

 

[Blader]

Two days after the Marches and here we are, tearing ourselves apart.

Whereas the White Supremacist "alt-right" have blended into the republican power structure and have a unified front.

How can we hope to defeat them when we can't even unite for more than two days? This is nearly as disheartening than the garbage spewed today from Gundam Spicer.

Again, this "tearing ourselves apart" is happening in threads like these, where people just need something to talk about, and feels completely divorced from the experience of the actual marches and the collective responses of people who participated.

 

[pokeystaples]

Funny, true and all-together not helpful.

This. There are few things more frustrating than this line of thinking IMO.

 

[Cybit]

And minorities getting screwed have every right to be pissed off at them

Irony alert: The drop-off in minority turnout is one of the two main reasons why we have President Trump (the first and main reason being all the white non-college educated voters flipping from Obama to Trump).

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/23/...on-crumbled-leaving-an-opening-for-trump.html

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...ayed-home-probably-cost-clinton-the-election/

Also - a more detailed argument about the economics vs sexism/racism aspect of the election

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/stop-saying-trumps-win-had-nothing-to-do-with-economics/

 

[Maztorre]

Trump didn't win because white people had their feelings hurt. That's just ridiculous.

This is exactly what this election was about. Trump pulled in white people who felt threatened that globalisation was only lifting up people other than them. People who grew up with the expectation they could fuck up in high school and still walk into a job for life like their daddy did. Mix that in with years of Dems doing next to nothing economically progressive in favour of identity politics and you have a pretty potent combination of both class and racial resentment. Especially when these people's lives and economic status do not correlate with the story that came out of the incumbent party that the country is doing great (even if that is partially true!).

The unfortunate fact is that the majority of people are dumb and self-interested. If Democrats want to win elections their platform has to have enough appeal to the dumb and self-interested. That means flattering these idiots with bullshit national myths like "make america great again" while either trying to appeal to their better nature (good luck), or offering enough economic prosperity that they don't resort to dog-eat-dog attitudes that inevitably take on a racial component. Many of these states voted in Obama - the racism of these voters isn't some kind of sheet-wearing visceral hatred, but more along the lines of treating minority groups they barely interact with as competitors for jobs and a way of life they are losing.

 

[captive]

I hate that fucking sign. Yes we know that white women voted Trump, but the ones that opposed that asshole have every right that we do to be upset with the situation and to protest his orange ass right along side us. Shit feels super fucking lame, like someones working overtime to get all the people that agree with each other to squabble amongst themselves.

seriously, i dont get the point of the OP and the people saying these things.

I'm skeptical that 53% of the women participating in the protests were Trump voters.

yea i'm gonna go with the that number being a lot closer to 0%

 

[Infinite]

Some of the most effective movements in all of history are based on allying whoever is available to promote a cause at the given time whether or not it continue perpetually. It's just provably effective, no opinion necessary.

Allies who fail to be better allies aren't good allies.

 

[Clay Davis]

There were a number of aggressive placards at the march and I think it's understandable why some women would be upset with how voting demographics broke down, but now is a time to reach out and embrace everyone regardless of who they voted for.

,

This placard was the same and again I truly do understand the intent and why someone would feel so angry but this message will only alienate and polarise people who might otherwise support your platform but don't know how to do so properly.

 

[Staccat0]

We white people sure don't like to be called out, do we?

But keep posting about how this is all about you personally and how you're being feeling attacked by those signs and tweets.

Nah, I would rather take the government back from insane people.

 

[WaffleTaco]

Unintentional racism is still racism that hurts other groups.

Yeah I know, it's why I try talking to my friends about it, buts it's hard, they just don't see it.

We white people sure don't like to be called out, do we?

But keep posting about how this is all about you personally and how you're being feeling attacked by those signs and tweets.

Because those signs make me feel like I'm responsible when I'm not.

 

[thehypocrite]

My mom voted for Trump because Fox News made her hate Hillary.

Sure. those rats at Fox did it. You mom has no agency over herself and shouldn't be accountable for her actions.

 

[Intheflorsh]

I'm tired of "you're the reason why Trump's going to win again!" being used to shut down conversations.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

We white people sure don't like to be called out, do we?

But keep posting about how this is all about you personally and how you're being feeling attacked by those signs and tweets.

This is the kind of attitude that guarantees NO support from white people or at least discourages them into total inaction.

People should build up their allies, not tear them down.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Allies who fail to be better allies aren't good allies.

I hope to God you never become an army general.

 

[Plum]

There's nothing wrong with reflecting on why a thing happened.

Definitely, but that doesn't mean you have to feel any shared guilt for something despite not doing that thing, that isn't how things work.

Even then, what conclusion are they supposed to come up with? How would thinking "ohhh, many people with the same genitalia and skin colour of me are idiots and/or scumbags!" help more than going out and showing your support for the cause as a whole? What were they doing wrong by being at that protest? At what point would someone like Torraine think "yes, white women have had enough time to think, now they can finally march to the protest instead of their mirrors!"?

 

[cackhyena]

We white people sure don't like to be called out, do we?

But keep posting about how this is all about you personally and how you're being feeling attacked by those signs and tweets.

That's what you get from this whole thread, huh?

 

[JABEE]

I don't think it's fair to say the women who voted for Trump have no contact with those who did. I think you probably run into people all the time who voted for politicians or people you find abhorrent.

I also don't think it's strange to take offense to this sign. It's common argument in identity politics. It makes people guilty and feel like shit as if the sign is talking about you.

If the sign said 63% of white men or 58% of all white people voted for Trump would you feel the same way. Would it feel like an unfair attack on an entire group of people who may or may not find Trump disgusting?

What it does is make you question why these things upset you and how your own language and pithy sayings are being interpreted by people.

These political marches are about unity and publicity, but they are also about other things like vanity etc and always have been. Especially when there is no real force opposing your march or getting police ready to baton and break up the crowds.

It's a great thing for everyone to have their thoughts heard. It's a few voices and signs in a march of millions. The movement is not a monolith, unchanged, unquestioned.

 

[Rentahamster]

Conservatives literally cheering when liberals do this pointless in-fighting and finger-pointing. As if the democratic party needs more fracturing along the lines of criticizing anti-Trump protesters.

If it makes you feel any better, the Republicans do it to themselves too. #NeverTrump #TeaParty

 

[Infinite]

I hope to God you never become an army general.

This a dumb retort. Why should I not be able to criticize my allies and make them into better allies who further understand the cause? The fuck is this shit

 

[Brakke]

This thread ain't about a sign

This thread isn't really "about" anything. The title isn't a sentence, the OP is an incoherent mess, and OP himself wandered off without engaging. There's no thesis to litigate here, just a rabble.

 

[Obliterator]

The far left is becoming so obsessed with who is "right and wrong" over all this that it's doing nothing but divide them further and further.

People should be way more focused on what we can do to make sure this doesn't happen again in 4 years than trying to prove how virtuous one group is over the other.

Get with it.

 

[reckless]

If it makes you feel any better, the Republicans do it to themselves too. #NeverTrump #TeaParty

In the end Republicans still voted. Democrats don't.

 

[cubicle47b]

We white people sure don't like to be called out, do we?

Who likes being called out?