SmackDaddy
Member
Yup. Bad decision. Believe it or not, fellow liberals, we need the police, as well as their support. This is not the way to get it.
Pride Toronto votes to remove police floats and marches
- Thread starter Kraftwerk
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Yup. Bad decision. Believe it or not, fellow liberals, we need the police, as well as their support. This is not the way to get it.
yeah it's not like cops could be gay and understand lgbt issues right?
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
It would be more like banning a float made by the Catholic church. I think individual cops are still allowed to participate, just not the police as an institution.
Agent Gibbs
Member
If the police are kicked out of the event won't is spur a police respone?or lack of one so to speak? so they provide the absolutely required minimum of support for the event? which itself will prove disruptive?
It seems like silly banning of Police from an event they are supporting that is unrelated to BLM so as to appease militant members and something that could just end up antagonising the situation amongst all parties?
sometimes i feel like some protesters act like tantruming children who need a parent
It seems like silly banning of Police from an event they are supporting that is unrelated to BLM so as to appease militant members and something that could just end up antagonising the situation amongst all parties?
sometimes i feel like some protesters act like tantruming children who need a parent
I have no idea what your post is trying to say. Nobody is trying to de-legitimize fears about police as a concern. People are saying outright banning them is the wrong way to go about it.
I'm not driving by, I'll be here.
I'd appreciate not being compartmentalized due to where I was born.
All I'm saying is that the overwhelming response is that this is a stupid decision. That this is a positive that is being wrecked by the demands of black people.
Why the need to immediately dismiss those demands? Doesn't that speak to a larger problem? Why is their validity of opinion immediately dismissed as being American, or pointlessly confrontational, or whatever? Could we not consider that they genuinely feel persecuted unreasonably by police, and that visible protest that incorporates intersectionality is a damn good way to get their position heard?
Mm, should they protest more quietly?
Gay Cops showing up to a parade has nothing to do with the institution of poicing getting a float at the same parade.
Interframe
Member
I like how everyone is talking about the lack "inclusion" because police floats aren't around in the Pride parade, yet nobody is willing to talk about the real issues regarding the lack of representation and inclusion within the LGBTQ community for people of color. I've only really seen white queer people make noise about the police not being allowed to participate in the parade floats, like its a not a big deal, the police are still going to be there regardless because its their civic duty to protect citizens, the LGBTQ community dont owe it to the police to give them space in this float, and they should protect all citizens regardless (obviously some minority groups will always require some extra protection due to hate crimes and discrimination and what not).
Nobody seems to be talking about the positive stuff BLM did, like open up opportunities for queer PoC and give more black trans women a voice, which the Pride Toronto committee badly needs.
People need to get over this stuff, especially white queer people freaking over this, its not a big deal, its the job of police to protect you regardless (its what you pay taxes for ffs) and you shouldn't have to appease them or give them any extra or special treatment, its their job to protect you and not including them in the parade floats should not change that or cause any tensions.
Nobody seems to be talking about the positive stuff BLM did, like open up opportunities for queer PoC and give more black trans women a voice, which the Pride Toronto committee badly needs.
People need to get over this stuff, especially white queer people freaking over this, its not a big deal, its the job of police to protect you regardless (its what you pay taxes for ffs) and you shouldn't have to appease them or give them any extra or special treatment, its their job to protect you and not including them in the parade floats should not change that or cause any tensions.
They're not allowed to appear in uniform. So you can still attend, but just not identify as who you truly are and build relations with the community.
Just so you know, not all cops in the parade were on a float or in some kind of formation. Many were just attending with their partners. It's gross to tell them "no, you can't participate as a proper depiction of who you are in life." Inclusiveness be damned!
elrechazado
Banned
Institutions like the police openly supporting traditionally downtrodden, persecuted, and ignored communities like LGBT, and doing so in public and in their official capacity is a huge positive. This ban is a backward setback.
ZeroGravity
Member
This is how you lose sympathy from people.
Not when they racially profile it's black citizens in the same city the parade is taking place. The lgbt community doesn't owe them a space in their parade
bingo. some people just can't see that
Restricting gay rights, "get over it", gee thanks asshole.
And you don't seem to understand the type of police presence we are talking about. They're not at the parade to "protect the public", they are there because they are either members of, or wanting to support the LGBT community. But I'm sure you've been to Toronto Pride many times and are fully aware of this.
elrechazado
Banned
Did you see the word owe in my post in invisi-text? The fact that you think your post contradicts what I said, or that your second sentence is in any way a logical conclusion of your first is very strange to me.
Cool, maybe they could also openly support traditionally downtrodden, persecuted and ignored communities like people of colour at the same time.
Really! I wonder who these people, who just can't seem to wrap their head around this tricky social problem, might be
I'm saying the lgbt community doesn't owe the institution of policing a float at their parade especially when that institution antagonizes members of that community through racial profiling and carding. Period
Ravensmash
Member
So how is excluding them from an event designed to foster community relations going to progress that?
This doesn't seem like it does anything but push the two sides further apart.
Interframe
Member
OK...... and? They can still be there at the parade whether they are in uniform or not, in fact why does being in a police uniform even matter outside of work? Your a human being and still queer. The role in your job has nothing to do with that, and it really shouldn't.
And where did I say anything about restricting gay rights? Its more about white queer people having a complete lack of empathy for queer PoC, it feels like they'll jump to defend the police but always avoid the topic of the LGBT community having way too much white representation, almost exclusively.
elrechazado
Banned
Until they are perfect, we should definitely deride all attempts to be better and inclusive, and ensure they are ostracised and given no voice or credit for their attempts. That will certainly engender progress and goodwill.
This is why the reactionary right laughs and wins more than they should, because progressives devour their own. Keep it up.
Yep
If they want to be included, they can reassess how they treat those members of the LGBT/BLM community who have issues with racial profiling.
Racial profiling is the problem, which can only be solved by the police. BLM is not on the hook to change their stance unless they see a marked difference in policing.
Ravensmash
Member
So how is excluding them from an event designed to foster community relations going to progress that?
This is a dumb fucking point that I'm tired of reading on this forum. We get you hate identity politics. If only minorities can stay in formation with what white progressives think are important.
killer rin
Member
Thats really disappointing. The Toronto Police has always been a huge partner with the LGBT community, especially during these events
So community relations with black people inherently matter less why? They engage well with one part of the community, but not another. They don't get a free pass for that.
The fact that you needed to lash out at this proves his point.
Ravensmash
Member
You're creating a narrative from my post that doesn't exist.
So I'll ask again.
How is excluding them from an event designed to foster community relations going to progress that?
I "lashed out" because it's a pretentious and smug way of saying your problems don't matter. Tired of reading it here.
But what community? White LGBT? Hey, great, very progressive. Doesn't discount the reasonable demand that racial profiling stop
They are proud of their job and the good work they put in and have put in to change the way the police views the lgbt community maybe? who are you to tell a person how they should feel and what they pride they can show outside of work?
You're right, they don't owe them anything. it's not like they were asked by the Pride if they wanted to have floats right. Oh and it's not like the police in this city have actually worked their butts off to improve relations with the LGBT community (http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/churchstmural/). can't even say that is most places.
elrechazado
Banned
That's exactly what I said. Get in lockstep with the superior race comrade.
Or you could read what I actually wrote, and acknowledge that powerful institutions making steps to officially recognize historically voiceless minorities is something that should be encouraged. You need some improv training. "Yes, and". Great, police - keep doing that, and now work on this area too. Not "fuck your attempts, you're not perfect elsewhere so go away".
I'm not white, but thanks for assuming my ethnicity based on my words.
ChosenPredator
Banned
it has been and will continue to be, I myself have family on the force so seeing stuff like this is disappointing.
I wanted so badly not to post in this thread! I really did. But I just can't with this post.
Arrested? For protesting? ...At Pride?
https://youtu.be/iN4_8eurids
I get that it's hard to see past the Bud Light tent but you have to know that this isn't Mardi Gras North.
No. No they have not always been a huge partner with the LGBT community, especially during these events. Please learn about the history of Toronto Pride.
Banning the police from the parade doesn't do anything to make racial profiling stop. Laws can, and change has already started as of this month. And the community in question is the LGBT community in general; white or otherwise.
Count Dookkake
Member
That dude from the Village People is gonna be so mad.
A big part of Pride, in my opinion, is showing that LGBT people have representation in all facets of life. It helps the normalization of who we are, and representing what we do is a big part of that for many people. This is like saying, "you can be a gay cop, just don't tell anybody about it." Sexual orientation is not something that people should be concerned with when regarding their chosen profession. And since this is an LGBT celebration, the reverse should also be true.
And also I had no issue with BLM's other demands regarding treatment of PoC within Pride. Please feel free to look up my posts in the original thread if you'd like. The problem is that they are now punishing members of the LGBT community to make a point. This should not be a "white vs black" parade, it's an "all LGBT people welcome" parade.
(And sorry for calling you an asshole earlier, I'm all worked up, lol)
elrechazado
Banned
He's not interested in a dialogue, just repeating a (legitimate) grievance that will be completely unaffected by halting a positive practice that has made and continues to make a positive impact on another historical problem.
Zero response to how preventing the police from LGBT inclusion will.solve that other problem. Great calculus there on his part.
arnoldocastillo2003
Member
I'm very sorry for deraling the thread but what does 2S stand for?
SturokBGD
Member
Says the person putting words in people's mouths. Be nice.
2 spirited.
arnoldocastillo2003
Member
Sorry again for asking but what does 2 spirited stands for or what is it exactly?
Two Spirit (also two-spirit or twospirit) is a modern umbrella term used by some indigenous North Americans to describe certain spiritual people[1][2] - gay, lesbian, bisexual and gender-variant individuals - in their communities.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit
But this actually proves the point of why the police should not be banned from participating. the ill treatment the police gave gay and lesbians in the past was a huge disgrace to the city and to the police force. Over time the police have come to change their attitude towards the lgbt community. This is in part due to social changes, but also internal changes to the police. With attitude changes, individuals felt they did not have to hide their sexual orientation, and more and more came out in especially tough fields like the police force. Because of their bravery to do so they also wanted to change the internal attitudes the police held and pushed for changes from within to acknowledge them, acknowledge the community and to extend out into the community to build better relations. This was not an overnight thing. This change in attitudes from inside of the force and the change of attitude from the community to accept the police has taken decades to build up.
The police themselves even acknowledge the bath house raids http://tpsnews.ca/stories/2016/06/acknowledging-past-recommitting-inclusion/
To throw strong ties that have taken a long time to build away is just a terrible mistake that only does harm.
arnoldocastillo2003
Member
Ok thank you very much for the link will go a read some more about it.
LGBT can and does intersect with BLM. If the police aren't working for the entirety - both parts - of that community, then they don't deserve to be treated like they're these great allies. They're only allies to one part of the community. The onus is on the police to stop profiling. If they do so, then by all means, welcome them back. But it's up to the people who are persecuted unfairly to say when this is ok, no one else.
Ravensmash
Member
You're insinuating that they were excluded because of some wide forming decision, when it sounds like it's one group pushing it or threatening disruption.
This is different.
There will always be someone with a grievance. Follow through with this sort of policy of exclusion and pretty soon nobody would be welcome anywhere.
You don't encourage people to play nice by shutting them out and telling them to come back when they have met your demands for perfection. Doing so will just make them stop trying, and you go down the road of an increasingly antagonistic relationship.
Yeah, a group whose views seems to be fundamentally dismissed from the very beginning, which is why I started posting in here to begin with
So black people who don't want to be racially profiled should just be quiet? Are they not protesting right for ya? What would MLK say, eh?
Look, nobody wants to hear that they've got a bias, but hoooly there's a lot of BLM dismissal in here. Maybe take a look at why.
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