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Project GODUS (Populous reinvention) Kickstarter by 22cans [Ended, £526K Funded]
- Thread starter Minsc
- Start date
Psychotext
Member
Yeah, I'm still not convinced. I guess it's not a massive target.
He seems rather furious about it. I think he raises a good point when he reminds us how Kickstarter was made for people without the means and ressources to get the project done in the first place. In the case of Molyneux, not only he has the ressources to do it but in the other thread he also said in an interview that he had friends in publishing offices that could help him get the game published.
I guess it's better to use money from backers with no string attached than your own funds or funds coming from publishers with conditions.
I can certainly understand why Obsidian, Fargo and Schafer did it as they had nowhere left to go but with Molyneux this is clearly not the case...
Rab is wrong. Kickstarter is not a thing you do because morals, is something you can do because it exists. He falls in the same fallacy of those who think that Kickstarter should be reserved for poor artists struggling to produce their craft. Why? Who established that?
Crowdsourcing is not the last option, is just an option and I don't see why Peter Molyenux, or Braben or whoever can't use it if they desire. And if Rab would want to do a KS I don't see why not, I don't care if he can "do it alone", I just care about him doing it and doing it good.
So yeah, whatever.
Also backed Maia and Sir You are being Hunted, UK KS don't allow Paypal or Amazon Store, so I prefer doing those in one go. Not hopeful for Maia.
Crowdsourcing is not the last option, is just an option and I don't see why Peter Molyenux, or Braben or whoever can't use it if they desire. And if Rab would want to do a KS I don't see why not, I don't care if he can "do it alone", I just care about him doing it and doing it good.
So yeah, whatever.
Also backed Maia and Sir You are being Hunted, UK KS don't allow Paypal or Amazon Store, so I prefer doing those in one go. Not hopeful for Maia.
I wouldn't mind. I'll preorder a new Road Rash if they make a convincing pitch.
Because once this thing is taken over by assholes who can secure funding via traditional methods, it becomes little more than a turbo-preorder designed to take advantage of public generosity. It's absolutely immoral and goes against the spirit of the site and crowd funding in general.
That says it all, really.
Rab is wrong. Kickstarter is not a thing you do because morals, is something you can do because it exists. He falls in the same fallacy of those who think that Kickstarter should be reserved for poor artists struggling to produce their craft. Why? Who established that?
Crowdsourcing is not the last option, is just an option and I don't see why Peter Molyenux, or Braben or whoever can't use it if they desire. And if Rab would want to do a KS I don't see why not, I don't care if he can "do it alone", I just care about him doing it and doing it good.
So yeah, whatever.
Also backed Maia and Sir You are being Hunted, UK KS don't allow Paypal or Amazon Store, so I prefer doing those in one go. Not hopeful for Maia.
Hey, you know, the fact that an avenue for people who are otherwise able to secure funding to exploit dumb gamers exists doesn't mean that people aren't allowed to hate the fact that it's being used in that capacity.
"Dumb gamer", nice... People are allowed to say whatever they want. But inventing moral rules for something that is not about morals is, well, an invention and should be treated as such.
epmode said:
It's not immoral, KS has rules, and those are being respected. It is a service and people use it as it's designed: to get stuff they want to get.
"The spirit of the site and crowd funding", what is that? who defined that? Crowdsourcing is what it is, a bunch of micropayments to pay in advance for something to happen. It´s a quite straightforward concept.
This isn't about morals (at least not for me), it's just people like Molyneux being sleazy by using a system they haven't the slightest need of just because they can.
spindoctor
Member
Oh boy.
I bet there are people at EA right now thumbing through all the projects they have in development wondering which one they can use to sucker people into funding them. I bet if they did a Mirror's Edge 2 kickstarter they could raise 5-10 million dollars and save themselves a third of it's development budget.
if I was concerned with Kickstarter's rules, I wouldn't have gone with "immoral."
The world is full of fools with money, right? They are welcomed to try for what I care. I don't judge what people do with his money.
We have different takes. For me "being able to make it himself" is 1) something I don't really know if it´s possible, 2)something that makes no difference to me, I actually prefer it to be self produced.
But it´s a personal take, I have no right to call anyone wrong to think otherwise so I apologize for calling Rab (and anyone who agrees with him) "wrong". It´s just that I disagree.
The only problem I have with established devs using Kickstarter is that it means they're competing with people who don't have the same resources or advantages they have. It would be really disappointing to me if Godus receives funding but a new dev with a similar idea fails to gain traction purely because they're not Peter Molyneaux. And considering we got From Dust not all that long ago I don't think Molyneaux would've had a problem finding a publisher for Godus. That said I've backed the Wasteland 2 project so I might be somewhat of a hypocrite (even though I don't believe that game could have ever gotten funded any other way).
Yeah for sure - that's how Kickstarter works. When you get the the checkout the amount will be listed in dollars, or euro's or wherever you are in the world (or at least that's how it's supposed to work).
We have a paypal option available but keep in mind that any amount pledged through PayPal doesn't go to our KS goal. Drop me an email or PM and I can give you the link.
Hey Perkel, good question we're getting this a lot. Making it for mobile doesn't mean it will be "dumbed down". We are gamers at 22cans, we love depth as much as we love innovation. We will be playing the game with you during our Alpha and Beta stages, so if anyone gives us feedback we will look at that. But we're not making a dumbed down game. The PC version will be hands down the most beautiful!!
Also realize that the mobile and Pc version don't have to be identical, they could be different but complimentary experiences that 'talk' to each other.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
Please make it not just beautiful but deep with in-depth gameplay fit for a PC title. The graphics are not our worry.
With all due respect, this isn't the concern. It's the potential streamlining of the UI and all the gameplay tweaks that go along with that which I believe has more people worried about mobile versions.
AltogetherAndrews
Banned
Isn't that guy seriously loaded?
This was just to bump the Kickstarter. They're not interested in answering real questions.
Sentenza
Member
Streamlining is pretty much a given, when your boss' philosophy about game design is: I want a blind child to be able to win this game with their feet. .
No it's a fair point FGMPR, I don't know 100% what the UI is like right now, we're not really at that stage yet. Do take your point that mobile games are generally different experiences from PC versions. I know the programmers and the design team are talking about that every day at the moment (amongst many things), a lot of ideas being thrown around and they should get to an agreement in time.
I like my Win PC games above all, so got my eye set on making it as good as it can be, being on 'the inside' and all that. But I'm sure my mobile experience will also do it as right. I'm gonna pester Peter about that very issue. Oh and Gary and co (programming).
Ravensmash
Member
I'm quite interested in this, and I've been following the kickstarter's progress.
I can't donate right now but may do in future - hope it gets funded either way.
I can't donate right now but may do in future - hope it gets funded either way.
Psychotext
Member
Don't know if they've been posted, but there are a couple of youtube "developer diaries":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKP2qoY2tac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jhye3C9SVzA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKP2qoY2tac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jhye3C9SVzA
which1spink
Banned
Dev dairy #3 is up. (TL;DW version)
So apparently Peter is going to read this thread tonight in order to get some "raw responses" from us - at least I think that is what he said in the video. Since there's no real discussion going on right now, I'd like to kickstart (pun intended) this thread, again, by throwing out some random thoughts and ideas about Project GODUS.
So apparently Peter is going to read this thread tonight in order to get some "raw responses" from us - at least I think that is what he said in the video. Since there's no real discussion going on right now, I'd like to kickstart (pun intended) this thread, again, by throwing out some random thoughts and ideas about Project GODUS.
- I think one of the biggest challenges of GODUS is to provide players with the right (amount of) feedback during gameplay. One of the main reason games are so universally loved is the fact that while playing a game you're in a (hopefully) well-balanced feedbackloop that keeps you going. However, when creating a game, some genres are harder to nail in that respect than others.
For instance in a sidescroller like Ikaruga, the feedback is very straight-forward. You get shot while your ship has the wrong color, your ship explodes. If you have the right one, you absorb the energy. That's a concept you can grasp in 5 seconds.
Now, I think the RTS-genre and GODUS in particular is on the other side of the scale ... I believe it will be really hard to give players the right (amount of) feedback, since your not even in direct control of your people. Looking back at B&W I think this was one of its weak points as well. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't that bad but yet the feedback could have been way more tangible, in a sense.
- Please focus on the core mechanics (God-powers, relationship between you and your people, etc.) first and don't waste your time on gimmicky features like a creature sidekick. Now I do know you love AI-companions and I can see what you want to achieve with them, but honestly this idea has always weakened the core gameplay of your games.
Actually, if you think about it, your people should be the one to "pet" - they should have the same status as your creature had in B&W.
Thinking about the creature in B&W, I can see why people loved them so much: It gave you a more tangible and better (through anthropomorphistic features) feedback than your people. You cared more about your pet than about them. Also you had more direct control over it, using the leashes.
So what I'm trying to say is: Make the little guys more like the creature, in some sense. See what worked for the pet and apply these strategies to the whole group of villagers (for instance, you should be able to see the current emotional state of your people all the time, there should be an ability to punish people without killing (all of) them etc.).
- Don't try to emulate a mouse-cursor-like control and buttons on tablets, it just won't work.
As an completely unrelated example: In the smartphone-versions of GTA III, Rockstar implemented virtual keypad to control the game. Now what happens is, you have to use the virtual analog stick to aim and shoot at people. Who wants to do that? I just want to point and shoot at my target by tapping on them!
Also push for the buttonless UI, as you always do. Try to experiment with context-sensitive, clicks and taps (also, of course, with secondary click and press-and-hold taps on touchscreen devices) and don't rely too much on gestures. You can just remember so many gestures - once you introduce too many gestures, players get confused (after all, they have more important things to worry about!)
Other UI-elements should be carefully integrated ingame (with the exception of the pause/menue-button, now that was just plain stupid in B&W).
- Seriously, no FB-button this time. Also get another graphic-artist for all the menue items, the assets from Curiosity are TERRIBLE.
- Keep the amount of God-powers as low as possible, after all you have to balance them for MP. Focus on the most interesting powers, 8-10 should be more than enough to create non-repetitive gameplay.
Remember Peter, your lack of focus is what makes your games feel so ... incomplete; like rough around the edges - you know, the bad way. Focus, focus, focus on the core mechanic and always remember: Less is more.
- I always liked the idea of rock-paper-scissor like troop-types (see G&C Generals) but I'm not even sure if there are going to be different types of people in GODUS
- As a gamedesigner, there's an awful lot you can learn from Settlers of Catan. Scrap the pseudo-random distribution of resources and it's basically a perfect game, like chess. Especially take a look at how Klaus Teuber, the creator of Catan, implemented catch-up-mechanisms (players who hoard resources can get punished when a player rolls a 7 etc.)
- I haven't played any RTS multiplayer since ... well, I can't even remember - modern RTS are just too bustling for me. The way RTS MP are played today - by exploiting the ruleset, learning strategies by hard and executing them as quickly as possible - really isn't my cup of tea. Time has become the most important factor when playing RTS online against others, while actually the decisions you are making should be more important than that. After all, it's a strategy game, not a shooter.
Maybe there's something to learn from the racing game Trackmania, where you compete against other players indirectly (basically a realtime time-attack-mode with only ghost cars on the track). Yes, it may not sound like fun on paper but actually quite the opposite is true, since you can focus on *your* run while all player actually try to achieve the same goal: The quickest lap.
- In terms of evolving towns an structures, check out the Anno-series (especially Anno 1404 and 1602), even though I think GODUS will have a much smaller scale than Anno. They've nailed this type of RTS-game.
- What do you guys think about From Dust?
I guess if they're honest, you can say it's moral, but it's is unambiguously anti-consumer. It's a bad way to buy things, and it puts consumers in a position where they may not get the product they were promised. It puts all the risk on the buyer, and gives him little ability to really know what he will be getting with any assurance.
The trade-off, of course, is that it means different games get made, and based on different criteria. For me, that's worth it, and I'll take the chance on projects I feel passionately about.
But if that trade-off is taken out of the equation -- that is, if the game will be made either way -- the backer loses his main incentive to pledge. Of course, there may be other incentives like a lower buy-in price that are worth it to him, but in the case of GODUS, I suspect I'll be able to get the PC version for less than the $24 USD they're asking, and the mobile version for quite a bit less than that. So then why would I back?
I'm excited for the project, and I honestly hope they succeed, but I think the reason they're struggling is because they aren't really offering much to the consumer with this KS thing. Just the chance to buy a game that will exist either way for a slightly inflated price.
Philthy
Member
Populous has always been one of my most favorite games. I bought and played the heck out of it on my Amiga.
I am not sold on this project yet. As others have pointed out, it seems like they may be going for the intense battle aspect. This is not what Populous was. Populous was a game that you kicked your feet up on a table, watched the game play itself and make small incremental changes that effected the rest of the world. You set your people to be aggressive with land ownership when you wanted to expand territories.
The most fun in the game was shaping the land itself so that people could settle easier. It was literally a Zen Garden that you perfected and you watched the game play itself.
Populous 2 was a different story, and while it was a fun game, it was based around battles. You had a range of spells and such to directly attack the other side. It was a pretty large jump from Populous. I wasn't as good as Populous, but it wasn't bad, either.
They need to be more clear on what they are planning to do. Are they making another awesome Zen Garden or are we getting yet another RTS god game? The former, I'm in. The latter, I'll pass.
I am not sold on this project yet. As others have pointed out, it seems like they may be going for the intense battle aspect. This is not what Populous was. Populous was a game that you kicked your feet up on a table, watched the game play itself and make small incremental changes that effected the rest of the world. You set your people to be aggressive with land ownership when you wanted to expand territories.
The most fun in the game was shaping the land itself so that people could settle easier. It was literally a Zen Garden that you perfected and you watched the game play itself.
Populous 2 was a different story, and while it was a fun game, it was based around battles. You had a range of spells and such to directly attack the other side. It was a pretty large jump from Populous. I wasn't as good as Populous, but it wasn't bad, either.
They need to be more clear on what they are planning to do. Are they making another awesome Zen Garden or are we getting yet another RTS god game? The former, I'm in. The latter, I'll pass.
And there is a reason those are called pledges and not pre-orders.
Backer, from day 1.
Having watched three videos now I'm seriously concerned with the amount of time they spend talking about non-gameplay features. Slapping creatures, brushing the grass with the hand, unnecessary FPS mode, and so on. Pets (or familiars.) I want to see them nail the gameplay and then if they have time, or even after they're finished, add all that unnecessary guff.
I am however heartened by the intent to include solid single-player and their desire to add collaborative modes if they are able (hey, I know, drop all the previously-mentioned guff and focus on collab! ;-)
Having watched three videos now I'm seriously concerned with the amount of time they spend talking about non-gameplay features. Slapping creatures, brushing the grass with the hand, unnecessary FPS mode, and so on. Pets (or familiars.) I want to see them nail the gameplay and then if they have time, or even after they're finished, add all that unnecessary guff.
I am however heartened by the intent to include solid single-player and their desire to add collaborative modes if they are able (hey, I know, drop all the previously-mentioned guff and focus on collab! ;-)
Wait, why is Double Fine doing it OK and Braben / Molyneux doing it not? Anyway, it's my goddamn money and this is a free society I live in and I'll contribute to the projects I think are goddamn worthy of my money.
Psychotext
Member
Yeah, I agree with that. I'm hoping it keeps as many "zen" aspects as possible.
Castor Krieg
Banned
Because it would be impossible for Double Fine to fund their adventure game with the help of the publisher. Whereas Molyneux can walk in a lot of publishers' offices in the world and get the money. Plus, unlike DF employees he has more than enough personal wealth to fund the development himself.
Psychotext
Member
He actually explained the "vast personal wealth" thing when questioned and apparently he really doesn't. For what it's worth I believe him because it's not like he was shy about throwing his own money into projects in the past (to the point of almost bankrupting himself).
B...U...T... they can make the game they want to make without the need to listen to any publisher.
I just imagine what Fable would have been without Microsoft. Probably either still in production or just canned.
None of the results would have been great anyway, but I think some people better have a publisher so they don't make the game they want to make.
CecilRousso
Member
Lots of assumptions there, not a lot of facts.
Here's the facts.
- The alternative to Kickstarting it is going to a publisher or venture capitalists. Which is a very different development process from involving the community the way that KS embraces.
- Peter has funded the company and the team out of his own pocket, he has put pretty much put his personal savings into 22cans and Curiosity and its servers. Those bandwidth costs of the servers are making him bleed money right now.
- Peter in times gone by has FULLY funded Dungeon Keeper and Black&White out of his own pocket which came with severe personal risk
- Peter does not have so much personal wealth that he can keep throwing money at this, it's either doing it via KS or going to a publisher / vc
- Peter has not taken a salary since he's been at 22cans
- Everyone at 22cans is passionate about GODUS and we are very confident we can make it a wonderful game
There is more to 22cans than just Peter Moleneux.
Don't trust the man all you want, but it seems silly to automatically tarnish the entire team with the same brush your using on Peter.
CecilRousso
Member
I´m certain that you are, and I have pledged to it, but there is one quite important detail that I feel your project page doesn´t answer: What´s the status of the game right now?
Is it:
1. You have a prototype, and has had since the project started?
2. A prototype that´s being built now.
3. The game only exists in theory?
4. Something else, and if so, what is it?
I mean, some projects have a good prototype to show when the kickstarter project starts, some are well into production already when the kickstarter is launched, and some are just ideas (like the Double Fine Adventure). And I can be ok with any of those, as long as the developers explain the status. But I feel that you aren´t doing that right now with the current project page.
That second option sounds like an awful lot of work, im glad this is getting crowdfunded so theres more profits to be had.
also WTFFF :O:O
Yeah keep dreaming peter just keep dreaming
This image is real? What second grade bullshit is this? Man I can't even see my boss come up with garbage like this. The more this guy does, the less I think he actually knows about GAME design. Hes like the pretentious art teacher in college that thinks hes a master when everyone thinks what he does sucks.
It's real, it's on the 22cans website.
I like that Peter is still a starry-eyed dreamer. I like everything about this project except the fact that he didn't pitch it to investors first. If they didn't want to let him do the game the way he wanted, then he'd have a great case to come to KS and say "This is why I need your help."
Even still, I think it's a great project, and I'd probably back if the price were lower, but since I'm in America and since I'm probably most interested in the mobile version, I will wait for it to come out before I buy. I believe in Peter's ability to deliver a game like this.
And I think that's probably true of a lot of people sitting on the sidelines right now, who are very interested, but just don't see the case for why they need OUR money.
I'm kind of sad to see this campaign has hit a wall. According to Kicktraq they actually LOST money yesterday. I wasn't too worried about them making it, but now I'm getting concerned.
I like that Peter is still a starry-eyed dreamer. I like everything about this project except the fact that he didn't pitch it to investors first. If they didn't want to let him do the game the way he wanted, then he'd have a great case to come to KS and say "This is why I need your help."
Even still, I think it's a great project, and I'd probably back if the price were lower, but since I'm in America and since I'm probably most interested in the mobile version, I will wait for it to come out before I buy. I believe in Peter's ability to deliver a game like this.
And I think that's probably true of a lot of people sitting on the sidelines right now, who are very interested, but just don't see the case for why they need OUR money.
I'm kind of sad to see this campaign has hit a wall. According to Kicktraq they actually LOST money yesterday. I wasn't too worried about them making it, but now I'm getting concerned.
Aquamarine
Member
I feel like these arguments go a long way to reprogram my attitude towards this Kickstarter. I initially wrote it off because 1. Molyneux has a history of over-promising and under-delivering, 2. It seemed like GODUS wasn't a game that needed a Kickstarter, and 3. GODUS's Kickstarter page seemed pretentious.
But I had no idea Molyneux founded this team out of his own pocket...and hasn't taken a salary. Regardless of his past, investing so much into 22cans is an extremely noble gesture. This really seems like his dream project and his dream team...and the existence of this Kickstarter makes more sense, now.
I wish that would have been more apparent from the start. Now I'm probably going to make a donation to the project.
Bomber Bob
Banned
lol, dude's desperate
fb ads! way to waste money molineux!
fb ads! way to waste money molineux!
Thanks man, I've added it to today's update hopefully it answers your question
"Lets start with an update on where Project GODUS currently is. There are a lot of ideas, not just from the team at 22cans but also our community. One of our programmers 'Fabs' has been working the last few days on a prototype with Jack (design) and Tim and Mattia (art), which is being build right now. We hope to be able to show you this prototype next week and ask Fabs a few questions. At the same time the design team (Jack and Peter) have been writing the design document."
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/22cans/project-godus/posts/358791
lol, dude's desperate
fb ads! way to waste money molineux!
Hey man, I'm the one doing that, I put £50 of my own money into that. Don't think it's desperate just helping targeting people who liked Bullfrog games... It's almost like I can't do anything right around here.