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PS, I Love You- Greg Miller's new PlayStation Podcast
- Thread starter EdReedFan20
- Start date
EatinOlives
Member
Colin's anger toward FF7R doesn't even make any sense.
He completely ignored the very real point that the email Greg read brought up: most of the open-world games of today have to limit their scope in some capacity, such as with Witcher 3 when CDPR reused a lot of assets throughout the world. FF7's world is built to an extent that a lot of assets can't be recycled. A shitton of structures, textures, and environments need to be created from scratch and then used exactly once.
Continuously bringing up FFXV shows he's not thinking straight. First of all, none of us know the scale of FFXV and how environments are created and how assets are recycled. That he immediately dismisses FFXV as being a "smaller scale" RPG when he reads between the lines of the official statement shows he's not really paying attention to the state of "huge world" games today. As world detail increases, scope of the game worlds need to be reined in. He scoffs at the idea that FFXV is smaller in scale, even though there's a very real possibility that it will be. It's not a linear or 1:1 conversion, because even FFVII had to do a lot of smoke-and-mirrors to "fake" the scale of the world. If Square Enix wanted to make the scale of the world a lot more believable, to actually make maps that reflect the scale as depicted in the original game, guess what? The amount of time, effort, and resources required increases exponentially.
Let's the Elder Scrolls series as an example. Daggerfall came out in 1996 and has a map size of 62,000+ square miles with 15,000+ points of interest (towns, villages, dungeons, etc.). Do we bitch that games released nearly 20 years later don't come anywhere close to this size and scale? Do we dismiss claims that if we were to recreate this game from 1996 in 2015 that we'd have to make a lot of cuts unless we want to wait around forever for the game to be made? Of course not, because everyone knows that Daggerfall did a metric shitton of smoke-and-mirrors. Most of the open terrain was worthless flat land with trees strewn about, but you can't make a game today with literally flat land and trees randomly thrown in. You have to make hills, valleys, lakes, caves, cliffs, etc. etc. etc. To bring a game of a certain scale that used a lot of smoke and mirrors into a fully-fledged 3D world with modern visual fidelity is not and will never be a 1:1 conversion, no matter how much Colin whines and bitches.
It's hilarious that the argument they make to defend PS2 classics is "none of you know the amount of work involved in making trophies and porting these games!", but Colin has absolutely no problem talking shit about FF7R despite having zero knowledge of the work involved in bringing worlds depicted through 2D background renders into 3D environments. It's astounding how ignorant he sounded in his rant.
Fallout-with-swords
Banned
You hit the nail on the head, and I even agree with Colin on the PS2 disk thing. I feel like he likes to play devil's advocate or take the contrarian opinion on a lot of topics, but he sometimes ends up contradicting himself with the different stances.
I've only played FF7 for a couple hours so I have no first hand knowledge but I've always wondered why Square didn't just make it as opposed to whatever big FF game they were going to work on next. And what I was always told was the game was too big and it would never happen. I remember on the Bombcast someone said it would be too expensive for Square and they'd shoot themselves in the foot if it wasn't a massive success. So hearing them breaking the games into multiple parts makes sense to me, yeah they want to see a return on this huge investment as soon as possible to validate the project, makes sense to me.
And using Final Fantasy XV, the game that has been in development for nearly 10 years, as proof they could release FF7 Remake for $60 is kind of nuts. The development trouble that games has faced is probably the main reason why FF7 Remake is getting released like it is.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
Not to mention witcher 3 had 2 playable characters. 7 remake will have 9 characters with completely different fighting styles and weapons.
Witcher 3 has a handful of spells, 7 has dozens of attack materia, dozens of summons, and dozens of support materia.
Witcher 3 has a handful of spells, 7 has dozens of attack materia, dozens of summons, and dozens of support materia.
He must use that phrase a bakers dozen times per episode.
EdReedFan20
Member
That's a Podcast Beyond joke. His "you know what I mean" is more a part of his speech when describing things. He also uses "da da da" when meaning so and and so forth as well, among other things.
Edit- Realizing this thread is about to surpass the Kinda Funny NeoGAF Community thread in length, I will once again invite new best friends over to that thread to discuss Kinda Funny: Kinda Funny Community Thread | The Fire Rises, Brother!
YukihiraSouma
Neo Member
Colin looks so like a fanboy in this interview, awestruck at finally getting to meet his hero. And that face he made when Inafune gave him the gift, priceless!
Though I suspect he would not be happy to hear Inafune expressing interest in making mobile games.
Once again the level of understanding and analysis in a GAF post is 10 times better than what you get from the people who managed to get themselves on videogame podcasts.
Also, presumably, submarines and underwater exploration.
EdReedFan20
Member
HAHAHA! This is most definitely not the first time they've had a discussion.
YukihiraSouma
Neo Member
Yeah I know, I meant he had that kind of expression at the start of the interview. He had the same kind of smile when he interviewed Koji Igarashi a while back.
Personally, I think the choice to go episodic with ff7r is purely financial.
The game is going to be in development for an awfully long time and this segmented approach brings the money in faster.
If it really was about game size and scope, why wouldn't they release on multiple discs or increase the download size?
The game is going to be in development for an awfully long time and this segmented approach brings the money in faster.
If it really was about game size and scope, why wouldn't they release on multiple discs or increase the download size?
Real_Madrid
Member
And should really do a podcast. I can listen to Jaffe all day long (about gaming).
EdReedFan20
Member
Yeah I know, I meant he had that kind of expression at the start of the interview. He had the same kind of smile when he interviewed Koji Igarashi a while back.
Ah, okay.
Personally I don't think there's too much value and nothing to respect in having strong opinions no matter how much you elaborate why you feel that way when you lack understanding of the topic in the first place though.
I found this especially frustration in the recent episodes where it was about technical topics like the FF7R development or the PS2 backwards compatibility and agree with what others have already written here above.
Having options is certainly fine and I have no problem with doubting press statements and questioning their validity. But if you clearly have very little understanding of what you are talking about maybe a bit less rants/anger/insults wouldn't be completely out of place.
Dirtyshubb
Member
This is exactly what I was saying, well put.
It's sad, Because you grow to like an online personality but after a while the cracks start to show in their reasoning and logic and you realise that even though they get paid to know the industry (and in colins case know the inner workings through industry contacts) it's clear they aren't really any better than someone on a forum. I mean when I know more about a subject then they do just from browsing gaf it kind of changes how much weight you put into their opinions.
EdReedFan20
Member
I'm sorry, but I don't think that's a fair thing to say. You recognize that Colin is an online personality, yet are annoyed you know something particularly more than he does? To me, someone being an online personality means that there's a specific set of things that they are very well versed in. They're not going to know or be into everything. Should Colin talk with confidence about things his not as well versed in? Perhaps not. But saying his thoughts have just as much weight as a forum post comes off as very rude.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
This reminds me of that post of someone saying something similar and Colin responding to pull up a chair and have Colin list things that he knows that you won't. He said it would take some time until he is done. He won't know everything and sometimes one of us will know about a topic more than he does. I'm unsure why this would be an issue. You're not going to find someone that will know more on everything, esp from people that post of gaf that are constantly on the know for a lot of recent (sometimes indepth) news.
Lord of Ostia
Member
While a few posters above make good points about the size and scope of remaking a game like FF7, I still think Colin's criticism is still valid from the consumer's point of view. What he is basically saying is that FF7 was originally released as a stand alone, complete product, and that remaking the same project with the improved technology of the times should still be released as a standalone product. Of course remaking the game with 3D assets is a big investment and is time consuming, and I don't think he is discounting that. I think his point really comes down to paying 2 or 3 times for an experience you had in the 90's on the PS1 and only had to pay once for.
He is also skeptical, and rightly so, of the amount of content that will be in each episode. There are certainly ways to divide the game up that makes sense, but I feel that his concern is will each episode offer enough content o justify the likely $60 price tag. FF7 is like a 40-50 hour game. Unless they expand significantly on the original vision in the remake, that would make each section around 10 hours of content. From the consumer's persective, that is a little disappointing. Of course we don't know any of this for certain yet, so who knows whether or not the end product will offer enough value to justify multiple episodes at full price, or even a reduced price. It's impossible to know. He is simply expressing his concerns from the consumer side of things, which I still think is valuable. The fact that the game is episodic does warrant speculation and a bit of caution.
Edit: Also I think it is unfair to discount all of Colin's opinions just because he isn't as informed on a specific issue as you might be. His expertise is in Sony's first party studios, and he is one of the best sources of information regarding that segment of the industry. He isn't and doesn't claim to be much of an expert on anything else. That's the same as pretty much everyone on this forum, everyone has a particular area of gaming they are interested in and knowledgable about. That doesn't mean he can't have an opinion or reaction to something just because he doesn't know every single fact. None of us do, cut the guy some slack. Same goes for Greg, they are good guys and generally knowledgable about the industry.
He is also skeptical, and rightly so, of the amount of content that will be in each episode. There are certainly ways to divide the game up that makes sense, but I feel that his concern is will each episode offer enough content o justify the likely $60 price tag. FF7 is like a 40-50 hour game. Unless they expand significantly on the original vision in the remake, that would make each section around 10 hours of content. From the consumer's persective, that is a little disappointing. Of course we don't know any of this for certain yet, so who knows whether or not the end product will offer enough value to justify multiple episodes at full price, or even a reduced price. It's impossible to know. He is simply expressing his concerns from the consumer side of things, which I still think is valuable. The fact that the game is episodic does warrant speculation and a bit of caution.
Edit: Also I think it is unfair to discount all of Colin's opinions just because he isn't as informed on a specific issue as you might be. His expertise is in Sony's first party studios, and he is one of the best sources of information regarding that segment of the industry. He isn't and doesn't claim to be much of an expert on anything else. That's the same as pretty much everyone on this forum, everyone has a particular area of gaming they are interested in and knowledgable about. That doesn't mean he can't have an opinion or reaction to something just because he doesn't know every single fact. None of us do, cut the guy some slack. Same goes for Greg, they are good guys and generally knowledgable about the industry.
EatinOlives
Member
I doubt Colin would make that argument, since he and Greg both made it very clear they're against the whole "I bought X game Y years ago, I should get a similar experience today" mentality when they were addressing the PS2 Classics argument. It's clear that FF7R is a completely different product from the original FF7, so there's zero expectation of what consumers are entitled to for each installment.
I wouldn't discount all of his or Greg's opinions based on their opinion of one matter. However, I'm comfortable dismissing any one of the opinions if they're based on unfounded claims or just generally ill-informed notions. Things like him having no problem making blanket statements about the scale of two completely unreleased games despite him having very little first-hand experience of one (FFXV Episode Duscae) and no first-hand experience at all on the other (FF7R) makes it clear he's speaking from a knee-jerk reaction instead of a more level headed analysis.
Lord of Ostia
Member
His argument about the PS2 classics and his issues with the way FF7 is being presented have nothing to do with each other. The entire point of a remake is to bring the experience of the old game to a new audience as well as old fans with new technology. Sure it will be a different experience in many ways, it will play differently, but it's also about preserving the essence and feel of the original game while simultaneously bringing it into the modern day. That is what all successful remakes do, and any remake will be unavoidably compared to the original.
That said, there is nothing wrong with fans having expectations about what a remake should entail. Square Enix can do whatever it wants with FF7R, and if they feel the game needs to be split into episodes in order to achieve their vision (and also make a return on their investment of time and resources) than they certainly have the right to do so. The consumer also has the right to be unsatisfied or unhappy with the episodic approach and express their displeasure with such an approach if it means there will be a higher burden on them to get the full experience of the game. It's not that crazy of a concept, and I completely understand why he is taking issues with the episodic nature of the game. In order to fully experience the narrative of FF7R you will need to buy multiple games, and it is fair to be dissatisfied with that when most other AAA RPGs are not released in an episodic format.
EdReedFan20
Member
If I recall, this was when they called the new Spelunker game a rip-off of Spelunky. They didn't realize that Spelunker (as a franchise) was much older and inspired Spelunky's creation. They apparently got a lot of correction e-mails.
Yup, I hear a lot of contradictory nonsense coming out of Colin these days and I've been listening to Beyond since 2010.
I used to agree with him on nearly everything but now it certainly seems like he has blinders on sometimes. Colin discusses the hardcore and reading up on GAF and then spends an entire segment shitting on Transformers, a game he didn't play, without regarding the opinions of people who, you know, actually played it.
Seriously that conversation about Platinum was the only time in almost 5 full years that they ever made me angry. Listening to them discuss the topic it's clear that 1) they have no interest in Platinum Games and 2) they know absolutely nothing about how that studio is operated. It's totally fine for both of those things to be true, but you'd think for someone who prides himself on his knowledge of individual studios he'd at least make sure he had any idea of what he was saying before blabbing it to the Internet.
Colin, I love you, but what the fuck is going on recently? It's been like this for 2-3 months now. Do you need a hug? *hug*
I'm surprised to see people reaction here on the episodic nature of FF7. All the other places I've read had been extremely negative towards that announcement. I saw nothing wrong with Colin rant and it's just his opinion. Also why we are giving Square Enix the benefit of the doubt? when was it the last time they made a good decision on anything ? they have been terrible since the PS2 era.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
I'm personally on the waiting list to see how many parts there are and how much content is in each part. And if you hate the part system so much, wait for the complete edition. I don't see a problem with people being pissed off or excited for it either way though. :\
Me too. There is too much unknown. Is it 2,3,4 episodes? is the wait between episodes months or years?
EdReedFan20
Member
It was pretty cool when Greg said he loves NeoGAF. Well, Greg, we love you too! Post here more!
Dirtyshubb
Member
I really dont see how what I said was rude, all im saying is that there have been quite a lot of things that I have heard being said by some online pundits that either simply aren't true or are just baseless opinions that aren't backed up with facts. To say it's rude to acknowledge that someone who makes their living talking about the video games industry can sometimes be wrong, and wrong in a way that shouldn't really happen if they are doing even a small amount of research is rather silly. Hell we have Colin more and more speaking about going on gaf and yet I have often found answers to things just from browsing here yet he has had opinions that go against everything that we know here.
Oh I'm sure colins does know things that I don't. He has industry contacts and that of course opens up his abilities to find out certain info. The problem is that when someone who makes their living comes out with opinions/info that aren't true and could be corrected from just browsing gaf it kind of makes you doubt other things they say and that isn't something I want to happen since I enjoy them as personalities so much. I appreciate that they are busy but I'm sure many people here have full time jobs and yet can stay on top of the news and the current backstage info.
I mean it kind of feels like the whole 'we aren't journalists, we are personalities' is a safety net for the fact that they don't always know their stuff. Surely doing some research on the biggest gaming site that has constant leaked and backstage info, enough that many sites use gaf as a source for news, isn't much to ask?
Like I said I'm a big fan of both but sometimes my trust in their opinions can be knocked because of a lack of research.
taizuke
Member
Goddammit... #colinwasright
EdReedFan20
Member
Wow. And Neil was so sure about the March date at PSX. Well, it's a month longer. I'd rather have a good game than a rushed one. After all, this is their last Uncharted game. They're trying to make it the best it can possibly be.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
But Square has also stated that it's as about time. And doing it like this in sections, allows them to release the game faster.
TheCowboyPoet
Member
I will say, I think Colin's comments on FF7R are more than fair, and a lot of the people on here who have a problem with it strike me as just big Final Fantasy fans. That said, I will agree with you on Tearaway. Tearaway was a great Vita exclusive, a 3D platformer, developed by a first party studio, all things that should appeal to the boys. I just always got the feeling they didn't give it much of a chance. Back in the day though, that wasn't a problem on Beyond because Goldfarb liked it, but now there's no one to represent one of the all time best Vita games. Just part of the larger problem with both PSILY and the Gamescast... it might be nice if there was someone who could challenge their views. If Ryan was still podcasting with them, he more than likely would have had some different thoughts on FF7R than Colin, and, while I agree with Colin and have 0 faith in anything Square Enix does these days, I still would like to hear some opposing opinions.
Icyflamez96
Member
I haven't been caught up on the recent podcast episodes, but what people are saying ITT about the FFVIIR lines up with my thoughts as well. I don't know exactly everything that Colin has been saying on the matter lately, but it makes perfect sense that
1.) FFVIIR would probably "bigger" than the Witcher 3 in terms of the amount of unique assets that would need to be created. (Not saying either way if it would be enough to justify splitting the game into parts) And that's a comparison that Colin likes to use a lot.
2.) We don't really know the scale of FFXV so we can't really make an accurate comparison on that vs anything right now.
Those are two completely fair points that goes against things that Colin is saying. It's fair to be skeptical on things involving the FFVIIR, whether it's about questioning the necessity of splitting the game into parts, what an episodic/multi-part nature might entail that would be unfavorable for what some people would expect of a remake. etc... I don't think anyone disagrees with that. Just the comments he's made in regards to the two statements I've listed above aren't exactly "fair" ones to make.
And I don't see why people can't have differing views on the matter without being labeled as something so arbitrary as this. Some people here who disagree with Colin are probably big FF fans, Colin himself is a big FF fan, so what? I'm personally not a huge FF fan as I've only beat 7 and XIII. (played VIII and X but couldn't get into them).
Also this isn't as much of a problem on the gamescast because Tim
1.) FFVIIR would probably "bigger" than the Witcher 3 in terms of the amount of unique assets that would need to be created. (Not saying either way if it would be enough to justify splitting the game into parts) And that's a comparison that Colin likes to use a lot.
2.) We don't really know the scale of FFXV so we can't really make an accurate comparison on that vs anything right now.
Those are two completely fair points that goes against things that Colin is saying. It's fair to be skeptical on things involving the FFVIIR, whether it's about questioning the necessity of splitting the game into parts, what an episodic/multi-part nature might entail that would be unfavorable for what some people would expect of a remake. etc... I don't think anyone disagrees with that. Just the comments he's made in regards to the two statements I've listed above aren't exactly "fair" ones to make.
And I don't see why people can't have differing views on the matter without being labeled as something so arbitrary as this. Some people here who disagree with Colin are probably big FF fans, Colin himself is a big FF fan, so what? I'm personally not a huge FF fan as I've only beat 7 and XIII. (played VIII and X but couldn't get into them).
Also this isn't as much of a problem on the gamescast because Tim
DangerMouse
Member
Greg bringing up Oni. Even if probably mostly a joke to go with that next joke I still remember that game, I wouldn't mind seeing it as a PS2 classic.
LOL "Bungie's best"
Haha Druckmann, it was good he said that.
LOL "Bungie's best"
Wow. And Neil was so sure about the March date at PSX. Well, it's a month longer. I'd rather have a good game than a rushed one. After all, this is their last Uncharted game. They're trying to make it the best it can possibly be.
Haha Druckmann, it was good he said that.
He certainly has fair points, but he's very dismissive (at least in this case) when actual valid counterpoints are made. Just because you don't share the same viewpoint doesn't make one a fanboy or a defender, especially when intelligent reasoning is being given. That type of response is incredibly ignorant and to be quite honest beneath one of his intelligence. Either way though, it's ultimately up to Square-Enix and Cyberconnect to prove us all wrong. How will they handle the over world for instance? We simply don't really know yet.
P.S. Colin please destroy Greg's Vita so we no longer need to hear about Taco Master.
Nightengale
Member
Tim's really been coming onto himself in the past year.
Nick is behind camera way too much, but I like seeing them grow as games personalities.
DangerMouse
Member
I'm with Colin in mainly playing games to get immersed in them rather than just to distract myself, so I was really feeling it during that bit. There are some games I do that with but generally I play stuff to get sucked into the game and it's world.
Probably thanks to having stuff like JRPGs (and character action games) being my most prominent genre growing up, which I'd play for hours straight and get fully pulled into.
Yeah!
Probably thanks to having stuff like JRPGs (and character action games) being my most prominent genre growing up, which I'd play for hours straight and get fully pulled into.
Yeah!
EdReedFan20
Member
I'm interested what topics they will talk about on the next episode, since it will have been recorded weeks ago. Perhaps a look towards what's coming in 2016? Maybe predictions/bets?
Doctor_Thomas
Member
Isn't it all user questions? I don't think there's a news/topic of the week section, as such. I expect it to to be a small, but perfectly formed, podcast.
EdReedFan20
Member
Oh, that could be interesting. Hopefully people asked compelling questions.
Dangansona
Member
Yeah I know what you mean. I felt like things were looking good a few weeks ago when he said they should both try to avoid hyperbole and say a game sucks when they don't like it or haven't even given it enough time to render an opinion, but I feel like lately there are a lot of things coming out of their mouths not based on much evidence or experience.
And I mostly agree about what Colin was saying with the FF7R thing, but not all of his points and was a bit off guard about how definitive and abrasive he sounded when talking about it. But then again, Colin has been off of Final Fantasy for awhile. And that's another of example of where he has been acting like the franchise is dead when in all honestly some people liked the XIII games and now SE (new leadership) and XV looks promising.
I know it's personal and we have no right to know, but I wish we knew what has been going on with him for the last few months. Love you Colin.
This is the other thing that has been getting me lately. Greg needs to be aware of the amount of times he says "You know what I mean" "its one of those things" "right?" etc.
Once I started noticing it I have been unable to unhear it.
Bolivar687
Banned
It's a short one!
SenseOffender
Member
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