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[noonche]

It being "all about the games" is blatantly obvious to everybody posting in this thread already but thanks for the reminder. This thread is about the hardware and how/if developers are using the SPUs of the PS3.

Agreed. An interest in discussing technology as it pertains to games doesn't mean that someone is a fanboy or a graphic whore.

 

[Philthy]

The thread was a neat idea until posters and the OP started trying to defend the speed and causing a console war. It's been discussed by devs a million times over already, just go over to B3D forums and lurk around there.

 

[vdo]

Don't forget that SC isn't possible on the PS3 because of its lighting.

- Some pretty negative comments about the ps3 made by the devs. They state the fact that they are exclusive to the 360 allows them to do much more than if they were multiplatform (duh) but they also state they doubt they would be able to achieve what they're doing with the game on the 360 on the ps3 even if it was ps3 exclusive.

The lead programmer told the magazine he doubts they would have been able to pull of the lightning effects they have right now on the ps3. That's the only thing they say straight out, but they do state they believe they're much better off on the 360.

The quote does not say that it isn't possible on the PS3. Reading the quote, to me it looks like they say they themselves would not be able to pull it off on the PS3 and that they are better off on the 360. This could be due to the fact that they are able to use the 360 dev tools to more easily get what they want and are better off with that, but it doesn't seem to follow from their statement that what they are doing is actually not possible on the PS3. They may have meant when they said that statement that not only could they not do it but that they doubt any team would be able to pull off their lighting effects, but it is hard to tell from that quote, and in any case, even if they did mean that, it would be interesting to see if other dev teams with stronger PS3 expertise shared that opinion.

 

[methane47]

The quote does not say that it isn't possible on the PS3. Reading the quote, to me it looks like they say they themselves would not be able to pull it off on the PS3 and that they are better off on the 360. This could be due to the fact that they are able to use the 360 dev tools to more easily get what they want and are better off with that, but it doesn't seem to follow from their statement that what they are doing is actually not possible on the PS3. They may have meant when they said that statement that not only could they not do it but that they doubt any team would be able to pull off their lighting effects, but it is hard to tell from that quote, and in any case, even if they did mean that, it would be interesting to see if other dev teams with stronger PS3 expertise shared that opinion.

Pay attention to his quote.. appearently the problem isn't lighting.. its lightNing effects...

 

[vdo]

Pay attention to his quote.. appearently the problem isn't lighting.. its lightNing effects...

Oh, didn't notice that at first - also just saw your reponse in your previous post where you bolded that (which made me lol, btw)

 

[Pistolero]

Electrocuting, that's immersion ! In a batthub with a sixaxis, that would rock your socks. By the way, now that Guerilla and Polyphony showed their cards, which teams at Sony could surpass them in your pov ?

 

[theBishop]

Electrocuting, that's immersion ! In a batthub with a sixaxis, that would rock your socks. By the way, now that Guerilla and Polyphony showed their cards, which teams at Sony could surpass them in your pov ?

Can't wait to see what Resistance 2 looks like after the jump between Resistance and Ratchet.

 

[gofreak]

Also, its a big stretch to refer to Folding@Home performance as "Real World". Folding is a scientific application that is essentially one algorithm.

That's not actually true. There's a variety of different types of computation, the latest update added some more even. It's as real world as any other application.

Of course, we still don't know what proportion of floating point capability its using. I somehow doubt it's 90+%. But that doesn't really say much about how well its using the hardware anyway, nor how well it compares against other architectures.

 

[Zombie James]

Is someone ripping off GAF or was this written by the OP?

http://gamers-creed.com/?p=427
http://digg.com/playstation_3/PS3_games_list_SPE_usages

 

[InterMoniker]

Is someone ripping off GAF or was this written by the OP?

http://gamers-creed.com/?p=427
http://digg.com/playstation_3/PS3_games_list_SPE_usages

It wouldn't be the first time. Plus this is a really informative article.

 

[artredis1980]

Is someone ripping off GAF or was this written by the OP?

http://gamers-creed.com/?p=427
http://digg.com/playstation_3/PS3_games_list_SPE_usages

the comments on digg are funny, its not even an article, its a forum post of a misinformed individual :lol

 

[artredis1980]

The thread was a neat idea until posters and the OP started trying to defend the speed and causing a console war. It's been discussed by devs a million times over already, just go over to B3D forums and lurk around there.

this thread went downhill the moment the OP started listing games 'HE' thought did not use ANY spe's which is absurd. AKA he put in all the ports

 

[tanod]

Is someone ripping off GAF or was this written by the OP?

http://gamers-creed.com/?p=427
http://digg.com/playstation_3/PS3_games_list_SPE_usages

Holy shit if ripping off. I really hope that's the OP.


LOL it says "Thanks MikeB" as if he asked for permission to copy it and he couldn't even trouble himself to add a link to GAF. :lol :lol :lol

 

[lockload]

Compared to Emotion Engine, Cell is far less complicated compared to what most programmers are used to (read: x86).

But to answer your underlying question "why use a complicated design when there are simpler ones": the answer is because a design geared toward a specific set of tasks can be produced more cheaply and perform more effectively than a design geared toward general processing.

On a related note, games on Playstation consoles show noticeable improvements as the system ages because programmers discover areas of optimization.

But the big difference is time around is the PS3 is not no 1 as was the case with the PS2, devs either had to learn the PS2 architecture or make games to 20% of the market

Im not sure if this time around the financial sense is there to invest so much money in fully utilising the PS3 architrecture outside of 1st party games..

 

[gofreak]

But the big difference is time around is the PS3 is not no 1 as was the case with the PS2, devs either had to learn the PS2 architecture or make games to 20% of the market

Im not sure if this time around the financial sense is there to invest so much money in fully utilising the PS3 architrecture outside of 1st party games..

Since it was often first party games that got the best out of PS2, I wouldn't worry about seeing PS3's potential realised. It's probably also worth pointing out that those third parties that arguably did the best at realising PS2's potential (e.g. Kojima Productions, Square's FF team) are often still primarily if not exclusively developing around PS3.

 

[ex0du5]

Electrocuting, that's immersion ! In a batthub with a sixaxis, that would rock your socks. By the way, now that Guerilla and Polyphony showed their cards, which teams at Sony could surpass them in your pov ?

Insomniac and Team Ico.

 

[ex0du5]

this thread went downhill the moment the OP started listing games 'HE' thought did not use ANY spe's which is absurd. AKA he put in all the ports

Well why would those games use the SPEs? They didn't even use the multicores on the 360. They're all single threaded games, I believe.

 

[theBishop]

That's not actually true. There's a variety of different types of computation, the latest update added some more even. It's as real world as any other application.

Of course, we still don't know what proportion of floating point capability its using. I somehow doubt it's 90+%. But that doesn't really say much about how well its using the hardware anyway, nor how well it compares against other architectures.

You really think so? Besides the 3d display stuff, which could be offloaded to the RSX, I imagine Folding is pretty much chugging through the same algorithm ad infinitum.

Its certainly the only application able to make the PS3 hum.

 

[lockload]

Since it was often first party games that got the best out of PS2, I wouldn't worry about seeing PS3's potential realised.

True i guess this was proved with xbox games being very similar to PS2 games although it was more powerfull

 

[SolidSnakex]

Electrocuting, that's immersion ! In a batthub with a sixaxis, that would rock your socks. By the way, now that Guerilla and Polyphony showed their cards, which teams at Sony could surpass them in your pov ?

No one as far as Polyphony is concerned. Guerrilla could be topped by Team ICO or Cambridge.

 

[theBishop]

But the big difference is time around is the PS3 is not no 1 as was the case with the PS2, devs either had to learn the PS2 architecture or make games to 20% of the market

Im not sure if this time around the financial sense is there to invest so much money in fully utilising the PS3 architrecture outside of 1st party games..

Even with such a dominant position in the market, most 3rd party multiplatform games were using cross-platform middleware which didn't play to the strengths of any platform in particular.

Seems to be the same thing this gen with Unreal, Tech5, Havok, Rage, etc. Like GoFreak said, the teams that really pushed PS2 are continuing that tradition with PS3.

 

[gofreak]

No one as far as Polyphony is concerned. Guerrilla could be topped by Team ICO or Cambridge.

Or Santa Monica. Arguably the best PS2 showcase came out of them. If they remain on PS3, I think Ninja Theory could establish themselves among the cream of the crop technically on the system with a second crack at the whip too, given what they've done with HS.

You really think so? Besides the 3d display stuff, which could be offloaded to the RSX, I imagine Folding is pretty much chugging through the same algorithm ad infinitum.

It's not, there are different types of problem with different processing characteristics.

 

[MachoInfinity]

Even with such a dominant position in the market, most 3rd party multiplatform games were using cross-platform middleware which didn't play to the strengths of any platform in particular.

No they weren't. Why would you make such an obviously false claim?

 

[SolidSnakex]

Or Santa Monica. Arguably the best PS2 showcase came out of them. If they remain on PS3, I think Ninja Theory could establish themselves among the cream of the crop technically on the system with a second crack at the whip too, given what they've done with HS.

Forgot about SSM. They'll definetly be up there. It's always hard to compare racing games or fighting games to adventure style games, but GT5P is the most impressive game i've seen. Especially when you hear them talking about how they've textured the different surfaces to react and look the way they do in real life.

 

[lockload]

No they weren't. Why would you make such an obviously false claim?

Hes bang on the xbox was more powerful than the PS2 it was rarely taken advantage of

 

[Maxwell House]

you just shot your self in the foot with that comment dude and not sure if that really helped to support your argument =/

as of late ps3 really is starting to pwn the competetion in terms of visuals .

GT5 is the best looking racing game ever..bar none and its a gen leap from say Forza 2

Killzone 2 - looks quite abit better then Gears of war( you know the showcase game for the 360) and is argubly as impressive as crysis

uncharted looks better then anything on 360

RC:TOD is another amazing looking game

and i wont even mention LAIR...

there isnt one game on 360 that matches the visual fidelity on these titles ,

not to say 360 doesnt have good looking games..because it does and they look amazing on there own right, but as this poster said...let the games do the talking and these titles are evident enough to support my claims

i know i sound like a sony fanboy..and you know what i am a big sony fan but i always give credit where its due and thats the honest to god truth.

this isnt the fanboy side of me speaking , its my own 2 eyes.

have a good day lads , commence flamming now.

Futami???

 

[noonche]

No they weren't. Why would you make such an obviously false claim?

I thought renderware was used to make a large portion of multiplatform games last generation.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

I thought renderware was used to make a large portion of multiplatform games last generation.

They had their hand in quite a bit last generation for sure.

 

[Big Shirtless Ron]

Imagine if Dcharlie's posts were as funny as he likes to think they are?

Man, that would be some funny shit.

:lol

 

[freethought]

No one as far as Polyphony is concerned. Guerrilla could be topped by Team ICO or Cambridge.

Cambridge? Really? Personallly I have to go with Santa Monica or Naughty Dog, one thing Heavenly Sword should do is make us all realise how eye-poppingly gorgeous God of War III is going to be. Also, I want ND to make Jak IV or the Legend of Mar or whatever they're going to call it.

Team Ico will amaze us all though, hopefully at TGS.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Cambridge? Really? Personallly I have to go with Santa Monica or Naughty Dog, one thing Heavenly Sword should do is make us all realise how eye-poppingly gorgeous God of War III is going to be. Also, I want ND to make Jak IV or the Legend of Mar or whatever they're going to call it.

Team Ico will amaze us all though, hopefully at TGS.

Primal and Ghosthunter were 2 of the best looking games on the PS2. Cambridge are really talented.

 

[PistolGrip]

Primal and Ghosthunter were 2 of the best looking games on the PS2. Cambridge are really talented.

But arent they just mostly helping others get their stuff together. I guess once they are done with all the helper libraries and such they can make a graphical master piece.

 

[Busty]

Electrocuting, that's immersion ! In a batthub with a sixaxis, that would rock your socks. By the way, now that Guerilla and Polyphony showed their cards, which teams at Sony could surpass them in your pov ?

Good question. I think that with Sony's tech sharing initiative that bascially turns every first (and some second) party team into a member of one giant technical sewing circle it makes the playing field alot more even.

I mean, you could potentially have someone like Ninja Theory giving advice and sharing tools and tech directly with someone like Insomniac and vice versa.

Personally, while the established teams like Naughty Dog and Sony Santa Monica are always going to impress, I think it's the newer (second party?) teams that are going to do the most impressing. I think 'new' talent like Quantic Dream, (the next game from) Evolution and (in a few years) Ready At Dawn are going to be heavy hitters for Sony.

But for a more established studio in Sony's first party fold, then without a doubt Sony Liverpool. The thought of a 'proper' Wipeout sequel on the PS3 using their jaw dropping F1 engine is.... nice.

Cambridge? Really? Personallly I have to go with Santa Monica...

Sony Cambridge are bascially one of Sony's main R&D units. They directly helped Ninja Theory will alot of the heavy lifting on Heavenly Sword and having worked on developing tools for the PS3 they are now working on their own IP with an in house engine.

While their games have never been critical darlings, they have been real technical showcases. If anyone can really open up the PS3, it's certainly going to be Sony Cambridge.

 

[MikeB]

Hes bang on the xbox was more powerful than the PS2 it was rarely taken advantage of

The original XBox was mainly just a cut down PC. The advantage was that PC games could be ported without much effort, optimised for a uniform configuration.

The XBox due to being released a year later does have some technological advantages over the PS2, but specs-wise the PS2 also had many strongpoints compared the the original XBox. Surely a lot more R&D went into designing the PS2, like is the case with regard to the PS3. For this generation there's a much greater performance and specs gap, if compared to last gen.

 

[TEH-CJ]

Somone post something..

 

[Septimus]

In case anyone's curious, I found this in a Mercury Computer System's pdf a little while ago outlining some points of the SPE/Us.

 

[DCharlie]

how is that first 'outperform' calculated ?

Imagine if Dcharlie's posts were as funny as he likes to think they are?

Imagine if you had a sense of humour in the first place and the world would be one big party!

 

[Crayon Shinchan]

how is that first 'outperform' calculated ?



Imagine if you had a sense of humour in the first place and the world would be one big party!

I thought it was a pretty sick burn.

 

[noonche]

how is that first 'outperform' calculated ?



Imagine if you had a sense of humour in the first place and the world would be one big party!

Umh, there's that "Reasons" section right underneath that bullet point?

That said, I'm willing to bet that 3x is another contrived example. At tasks that fit in an SPE's local memory but not in the Pentium's L1 cache the SPE is going to be faster. But that's sort of a "well, d'uh" answer.

Additionally, since you have direct control over what's in an SPE's memory you could likely avoid stalling when you need something from main memory by performing prefetching. I don't think this is something that Pentiums can be instructed to do, and if a CPU starts thrashing the TLB performance is going to take a dive.

 

[MikeB]

I would like to note, the Cell processor should eventually find uses in many different settings. Of course we know Toshiba will be using the Cell procssor in consumer electronics other than the PS3, but the Cell should also find its way into handheld devices, etc.

Recent news:

IBM chooses Cell to power new supercomputing centre at UMBC

"The CPU famous for its SPEs has already been chosen by the U.S.’ National Nuclear Security Administration (NNSA) to be part of the giant mainframe “Roadrunner,” which comprised of AMD’s Opteron processors and Cell processors. “Roadrunner” is currently deployed at the Department of Energy’s Los Alamos facility and should be operational during 2008."

http://www.beyond3d.com/content/news/432

If you are a developer interested in the Cell processor the PS3 is a widely available cost effective platform to gain knowledge on how the Cell processor operates using Linux. Some pointers to get started:

Overview (written by the guy I quoted earlier regarding Xenon vs Cell):

http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cell/Cell0_v2.html

And IBM's Cell pages, includes programming examples:

http://www.research.ibm.com/cell/

 

[MikeB]

It seems my posting is being discussed at other places as well:

http://www.overclock.net/video-game-news/230941-ps3-games-list-spe-usages.html

I will soon start to scan these discussions to see if people added some useful comments to cross-quote back on here.

 

[MikeB]

Digg - PS3 games list & SPE usages (346 diggs so far)
http://digg.com/playstation_3/PS3_games_list_SPE_usages

N4G.com : PS3 games list & SPE usages
http://www.n4g.com/News-63408.aspx

PS3 games list & SPE usages - AV Forums
http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=613625

PS3 Games and their SPE usages | PS3 Vault
http://www.ps3vault.com/ps3-games-and-their-spe-usages-2057

PS3 games list & SPE usages - PLAYSTATION®3 General - PlayStation
http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=ps3&thread.id=1897424

PS3 games list & SPE usages - GameTrailers.com Forums
http://forums.gametrailers.com/showthread.php?t=161767&page=1

Wow, I better proofread my postings better next time, in one of the replies one guy even asks if I know English. ;-) Well, t's not my native language (I'm Dutch), my OSNews.com technical articles in the past were mostly proofread beforehand by fellow editors (and vice versa).

 

[MikeB]

Agreed, but the PS3 not only offer performance benefits (bandwidth, memory speed, processing power) compared to console rivals, it also offers a standard harddrive (harddrive caching) and a Blu-Ray drive (sustained predictable reading speed and more storage available for streaming).

Interesting related interview,
President and founder of Allegorithmic shares his views on PS3 graphics:

"A very cool side effect of the PS3's architecture is that ProFX should be able to continuously stream textures -- using one or two SPUs to compute the textures to be given to the GPU to be displayed, that's a huge bonus for adding rich content to games without having to stream that content from the BluRay or overloading the sole GPU of the machine.


You should see more graphically impressive games than ever with that kind of combination.."

http://www.ddj.com/hpc-high-performance-computing/201800372

More discussions related to my original post.

http://www.maxconsole.net/?mode=news&newsid=20221
http://forums.pspcrazy.com/forums/p...on-3-games-use-cells-spes-all-great-ones.html

 

[Zombie James]

You're getting famous :lol

 

[chubigans]

Great post Mike! I'll talk to the flOw and Blast Factor devs to see if they used the SPUs at all.

 

[Acosta]

Well deserved, was an excellent post.

 

[MikeB]

If you are a developer interested in the Cell processor the PS3 is a widely available cost effective platform to gain knowledge on how the Cell processor operates using Linux. Some pointers to get started:

Overview (written by the guy I quoted earlier regarding Xenon vs Cell):

http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cell/Cell0_v2.html

And IBM's Cell pages, includes programming examples:

http://www.research.ibm.com/cell/

Also a wealth of information can be found in these PDFs:
http://cell.scei.co.jp/e_download.html

 

[MikeB]

Also a well written recent article:

The Beauty and the Beast
http://playstation-disorder.com/comments.php?blog_id=795&

 

[Pistolero]

Oh completly forgot about the Cambridge guys...Aren't they the ones responsible of The getaway ? The fact that they're helping propagating technical excellency through the veins of Sony studios won't tie their hands I hope. The first Gateaway was quite impressive, if short of some solid gameplay mechanics.
GoW III will come to stab every other self-imposed god once everyhting is said and done..

 

[SolidSnakex]

No that's Sony London, they're currently working on Singstar, and atleast had Eight Days in development if its still around. Cambridge is Ghosthunter and Primal

Ghosthunter

Primal