UntoldDreams
Member
Killzone 2 versus Resistance 2 on a purely technical analysis will be very interesting.
** Hard to say who will come out on top on a technical level.
** Hard to say who will come out on top on a technical level.
PS3 games list & SPE usages
- Thread starter MikeB
- Start date
spwolf said:wouldnt be suprised if it is uncharted 2
I kinda hope Naughty Dog first gets Jak and Daxter onto the PS3, if so then I believe Uncharted 2 is more likely to arrive in 2009. Naughty Dog has a very close relationship with Insomniac, Insomniac's pioneering probably also helped Naughty Dog to make Uncharted the amazing game it has become.
MikeB said:
I doubt it, Insomniac has always been about pushing Scope and smooth gameplay over technical acomplishments. THere's no way they're going to match all the tech and performance going on in Killzone 2. That doesn't mean the game won't look fantastic or play smooth though.
Zen said:
Have you played Ratchet and Clank: TOD? It's a huge step upwards from a technical perspective, Insomniac are currently probably the best experts with regard to putting to Cell to good use, according to them:
"What's most exciting is the way things are headed right now I think we'll see just as big a leap from our second generation engine to our third as we did from the first to second."
Killzone 2 of course will be amazing, but Resistance 2 will probably be released later and some new tricks will have been learned, also from what was done in Killzone 2. The Guerilla team cannot radically change the core engine while putting the finishing touches on the game the last couple of months, I think Resistance 2's engine could end up being more advanced, maybe more in terms of additional effects and higher resolution. (Just look at all those things going on at once in R&C @ 60 FPS)
MikeB said:
I have played the game. It looks very nice, and they do use the cell to aid in activity on screen, but I never saw anything in Ratchet and Clank ToD that really pushed the technological barrier. Keep in mind they weren't using the SPE's at all for Graphics. They'll always optimize for relatively meager aspects in certain regards to get a smooth framerate, that's just how they've always done it, and while the engine might be a scope powerhouse, I'm not expecting it to have them throwing around volumetric blood, or ohysics on par with Killzone 2, or pushing deferred lighting and the like. I dunno if they will be able to claim to throwing more data around per frame as Killzone 2, or per 2 frames to Killzones 1 (30 vs a probably 60fps?). Although if they went 1080P (I doubt it based on Ted Price saying as much) and had a solid 60fps, that would be a whole other deal.
Some interesting non-gaming uses of the Cell's SPEs, recent reports:
Scientific research:
Why the PS3? Khanna needed phenomenal computing power to conduct his simulations. One option was to connect desktop computers in parallel and use their combined processing power. I wouldve needed 200 desktop PCs for the purpose. The cost and space issues along with power consumption made that totally impractical, he says. The other option was to use a supercomputer. Time constraint was the problem with a mainframe computer. You have to pay for specific time slots, and that didnt suit me either.
It was then that Khanna decided to try out the PS3, which has 25 times the computing power of a desktop PC thanks to its processor dubbed a supercomputer on a chip.
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1136660
Password hacking:
"Mr Breese said a powerful Intel chip could crank through 10-15 million cycles per second.
The architecture of the Cell processor meant it could speed through 1.4 billion cycles per second."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7118997.stm
Open Source program acceleration:
"TOKYO, Nov. 28 -- Fixstars Corporation today announced that the company developed the new "CVCell" module aiming to accelerate several important OpenCV APIs for the Cell Broadband Engine. CVCell achieved up to 27 times faster performance in image processing compared to Intel Core2Duo 2.4 GHz."
http://www.hpcwire.com/hpc/1913695.html
Scientific research:
Why the PS3? Khanna needed phenomenal computing power to conduct his simulations. One option was to connect desktop computers in parallel and use their combined processing power. I wouldve needed 200 desktop PCs for the purpose. The cost and space issues along with power consumption made that totally impractical, he says. The other option was to use a supercomputer. Time constraint was the problem with a mainframe computer. You have to pay for specific time slots, and that didnt suit me either.
It was then that Khanna decided to try out the PS3, which has 25 times the computing power of a desktop PC thanks to its processor dubbed a supercomputer on a chip.
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1136660
Password hacking:
"Mr Breese said a powerful Intel chip could crank through 10-15 million cycles per second.
The architecture of the Cell processor meant it could speed through 1.4 billion cycles per second."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7118997.stm
Open Source program acceleration:
"TOKYO, Nov. 28 -- Fixstars Corporation today announced that the company developed the new "CVCell" module aiming to accelerate several important OpenCV APIs for the Cell Broadband Engine. CVCell achieved up to 27 times faster performance in image processing compared to Intel Core2Duo 2.4 GHz."
http://www.hpcwire.com/hpc/1913695.html
A little additional comment from Naughty Dog regarding the SPEs:
"In regards to optimizing for the PS3, our engineers have gotten to the point were theyre familiar enough with the hardware that their first pass code has already taken the SPUs into account. So when it comes time to move a system over from the PPU to the Cell, it doesnt take a very long time."
http://threespeech.com/blog/?p=766#more-766
"In regards to optimizing for the PS3, our engineers have gotten to the point were theyre familiar enough with the hardware that their first pass code has already taken the SPUs into account. So when it comes time to move a system over from the PPU to the Cell, it doesnt take a very long time."
http://threespeech.com/blog/?p=766#more-766
So UT3 for the PS3 is nearly here and should be indicative what to expect from future Unreal engine based PS3 games, so related Epic statements:
"As developers get more comfortable with the PS3 hardware and start really unlocking its full potential, Rein has no doubt we'll be able to have our cake and eat it, too. But right now, we'll just have to settle for a gorgeous game running at 720p."
Source: Destrutoid
Mark Rein (Epic): "Now the engine does get better and better, as we move forward; so is it possible we one day do a UT style game on PS3 at 1080p? I guess so."
Source: AOL Games
Phil Harrison (Sony):
"If were honest, we didnt do enough of a good job supporting them and getting them the tools and technology early enough. Also, Epic isnt a huge company. They dont have unlimited resource. We have parachuted in some of our SWAT team of super engineers to help them. Specifically, to optimize for SPUs, which are the point of difference that the Cell Processor has. That process is under way. The benefits that it yields to end developers whether theyre writing exclusive titles or multiplatform titles is that the performance on PS3 goes up exponentially, and it will make for a much better game experience."
Source: Game Informer
"As developers get more comfortable with the PS3 hardware and start really unlocking its full potential, Rein has no doubt we'll be able to have our cake and eat it, too. But right now, we'll just have to settle for a gorgeous game running at 720p."
Source: Destrutoid
Mark Rein (Epic): "Now the engine does get better and better, as we move forward; so is it possible we one day do a UT style game on PS3 at 1080p? I guess so."
Source: AOL Games
Phil Harrison (Sony):
"If were honest, we didnt do enough of a good job supporting them and getting them the tools and technology early enough. Also, Epic isnt a huge company. They dont have unlimited resource. We have parachuted in some of our SWAT team of super engineers to help them. Specifically, to optimize for SPUs, which are the point of difference that the Cell Processor has. That process is under way. The benefits that it yields to end developers whether theyre writing exclusive titles or multiplatform titles is that the performance on PS3 goes up exponentially, and it will make for a much better game experience."
Source: Game Informer
Awntawn said:
Yes.
http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200707/N07.0719.1908.25222.htm
IMO it's clear Epic didn't have a deep enough understanding of the PS3 hardware early on regarding some Gears of Wars statements, new reports from 2007, Mark Rein: "PS3 UT3 Graphics Better Than Gears Of War" and "UT3 runs better on PS3 than Gears on 360"
Hopefully more many more developers will lead on the PS3, which could indirectly improve the quality of XBox 360 games as well, a multiplatform games developer posting at Beyond3D (admitted their initial games were just "quick & dirty ports from 360):
"We all agree given the time we'd like to architect for the SPU's first then work back... giving us cache-friendly algorithms by design
"So, the mindset amongst developing companies already seems to be changing. Apparently they still are leading a game on the XBox 360, but that should eventually change for the better for both platforms in course of time.
It will be interesting to see just how many SPEs this 'new' EPIC/Sony Unreal3 engine will use. Seeing as most developers were largely (and more often than not unsuccessfully) just trying to cram the UE3 onto the PPE and RSX I'd be surprised if this new UE3 iteration really pushes the SPEs in the way that Insomniac and Naughty Dog have been taking about. I imagine that EPIC will be using the SPEs to aid the UE3 engine rather than doing any of the heavy lifting.
I have a feeling (in my non technical, GAF educated game development knowledge) that this newly optimised Unreal3 engine may likely fully use just a few of the CELL's SPEs. But like Harrison said, Sony should have been on this like white on rice before Gears was released for the 360. It's not like the almost blanket adoption of UE3 in the industry happened over night after all.
It is. If I remember correctly Harrison or someone from Sony may have used a similar term to describe the engineers (or 'SWAT team' ) that Sony sent to Rockstar North to help them optimise the RAGE engine (?) used by the new GTA, for PS3.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if this 'SWAT team' were all from Sony Cambridge.
I have a feeling (in my non technical, GAF educated game development knowledge) that this newly optimised Unreal3 engine may likely fully use just a few of the CELL's SPEs. But like Harrison said, Sony should have been on this like white on rice before Gears was released for the 360. It's not like the almost blanket adoption of UE3 in the industry happened over night after all.
Awntawn said:
It is. If I remember correctly Harrison or someone from Sony may have used a similar term to describe the engineers (or 'SWAT team' ) that Sony sent to Rockstar North to help them optimise the RAGE engine (?) used by the new GTA, for PS3.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if this 'SWAT team' were all from Sony Cambridge.
seems like mult-plat development on the ps3 is a-improvinnn'
i like what i am hearing.
dmc 4 ps3 - looks better, sharper than its 360 counterpart, according to 1up's Brian Inithar.
Burnout PS3 lead sku
Dark Sector - looking pretty identical on both platforms.
EA pledges to improve PS3 development (and already has in some cases).
Epic getting UE3 optimized for the hardware.
Hopefully by next Xmas, I won't have to buy many more games for my continually dying Xbox 360.
i like what i am hearing.
dmc 4 ps3 - looks better, sharper than its 360 counterpart, according to 1up's Brian Inithar.
Burnout PS3 lead sku
Dark Sector - looking pretty identical on both platforms.
EA pledges to improve PS3 development (and already has in some cases).
Epic getting UE3 optimized for the hardware.
Hopefully by next Xmas, I won't have to buy many more games for my continually dying Xbox 360.
BruceWayneIII
Member
Core407 said:
That might be true but Uncharted was a first for Naughty Dog. Point being: we have no clue :lol
SolidSnakex
Member
Busty said:
They likely come from Sony Liverpool and Sony Cambridge. Those 2 seem to be the it developers when it comes to helping other developers out. Hopefully we'll eventually get to see Sony's Cambridge's own PS3 game.
SolidSnakex said:
I agree. Seeing as how they are one of (if not the) the premier R&D studios for Sony, I'd love to see just how much juice they can squeeze out of the PS3. Espcially when you consider that they have developed their own engine for the PS3.
It's going to be fascinating to see what Sony's "Go to guys..." will be able to come up with.
It's well known that Sony Cambridge are currently working on their own PS3 game at the moment. But I can imagine it being a huge 'AAA' title and as such, it might be awhile before we see anything from it.
Oh well. Such is the nature of hi-def gaming I suppose.
ShmarthurShmooner
Member
in the r&c tod post mortem on gametrailers hastings states the game uses less than 50% of spe performance.
ShmarthurShmooner said:
True, and even that was an arbitrary number seeing as he didn't have the actual acurate percentage from the profiler himself.
Seeing as how Naughty Dog are apparently getting about 30% from the SPEs with Uncharted I imagine that Insomniac's R&C is easily 30-40%.
captscience
Member
SolidSnakex said:
Should we be confident in Sony Cambridge's ability to fix games like GTAIV?
Apparently they played a pretty significant part in Heavenly Sword's development, and though gorgeous, it was riddled with framrate and tearing issues.
SolidSnakex
Member
Busty said:
While they didn't get much attention last gen for their engines, they were responsible one of the most impressive PS2 engines.
Primal
Ghosthunter
BruceWayneIII
Member
Busty said:It's well known that Sony Cambridge are currently working on their own PS3 game at the moment. But I can imagine it being a huge 'AAA' title and as such, it might be awhile before we see anything from it.
Ehm, do we have any idea what game it is?
SolidSnakex
Member
captscience said:
It's just 1 game so I wouldn't worry. If that's the team Sony did send to help on GTA4 then they obviously have alot of confidence in them. They obviously know how to make an impressive looking game so I guess it just depends on whether or not they're given the right amount of time to get it running smooth.
SolidSnakex
Member
DieH@rd said:
That's Sony London's game.
The difference between making good use of the SPEs and not:
Ureal Tournament 3 (far more demanding than Orange Box):
Ars Technica: "What is perhaps most surprising about the PlayStation 3 version of the game is that it manages to nearly match the PC's visual capabilities without breaking a sweat."
Orange Box (far less preformance demanding game):
GameSpy: "sporadic framerate and performance issues plague the entire package."
Exclusive titles can be pushed much further, designed specifically with the PS3 in mind.
Ureal Tournament 3 (far more demanding than Orange Box):
Ars Technica: "What is perhaps most surprising about the PlayStation 3 version of the game is that it manages to nearly match the PC's visual capabilities without breaking a sweat."
Orange Box (far less preformance demanding game):
GameSpy: "sporadic framerate and performance issues plague the entire package."
Exclusive titles can be pushed much further, designed specifically with the PS3 in mind.
MikeB said:
Of course this bodes well for future UT3 engine based multi-platform games hitting the PS3, the engine will further mature for the platform.
Mark Rein (head at Epic): "Now the engine does get better and better, as we move forward; so is it possible we one day do a UT style game on PS3 at 1080p? I guess so."
Some more interesting quotes:
Dave Connell, Lead Console Programmer over at Travellers Tales (of LEGO Star Wars fame) is equally pleased, describing PS3 as a very powerful piece of kit.
Once you put the effort in and start to understand the hardware, you can see PS3s huge technical potential, Connell told us, observing that the SPUs [Synergistic Processor Units] are key to unlocking PS3s flexibility. The SPUs challenge us to come up with completely new tech ideas and to develop new features around them. We are going to see the quality of PS3 titles improve for many years to come as people get to grips with them. It might turn out that things weve not even thought of end up best demonstrating the power of PS3.
Bruce Heather, EA UK
Our seamless streaming of a fully open world utilises parallel SPU processing, and Im really excited about how we can bring a complete world to life on PS3 using our advanced new physics system and enhanced lighting model.
Fallout 3s Executive Producer Todd Howard - from Oblivion developer Bethesda - understands that PS3 has more than enough power. No single game is using it all yet - not even close.
Why PS3's power will shine in 2008
link
Dave Connell, Lead Console Programmer over at Travellers Tales (of LEGO Star Wars fame) is equally pleased, describing PS3 as a very powerful piece of kit.
Once you put the effort in and start to understand the hardware, you can see PS3s huge technical potential, Connell told us, observing that the SPUs [Synergistic Processor Units] are key to unlocking PS3s flexibility. The SPUs challenge us to come up with completely new tech ideas and to develop new features around them. We are going to see the quality of PS3 titles improve for many years to come as people get to grips with them. It might turn out that things weve not even thought of end up best demonstrating the power of PS3.
Bruce Heather, EA UK
Our seamless streaming of a fully open world utilises parallel SPU processing, and Im really excited about how we can bring a complete world to life on PS3 using our advanced new physics system and enhanced lighting model.
Fallout 3s Executive Producer Todd Howard - from Oblivion developer Bethesda - understands that PS3 has more than enough power. No single game is using it all yet - not even close.
Why PS3's power will shine in 2008
link
InterMoniker
Member
Thank you so much Mike I was just thinking of this thread the other day. People laugh when I say there's untapped power in the ps3, sometimes it takes a little time to prove your right
I mean Uncharted is only using about 30% of the cell. Resistance had to have used even less than 30% of the cell which to me is mind blowing since Resistance is still easily the most impressive FPS out there.
It's a damn shame that this thread was trolled by all the usuals, people took so much offense they started talking about your wife and kids. Pretty pathetic to say the least.
Thank you again MikeB.
I mean Uncharted is only using about 30% of the cell. Resistance had to have used even less than 30% of the cell which to me is mind blowing since Resistance is still easily the most impressive FPS out there.
It's a damn shame that this thread was trolled by all the usuals, people took so much offense they started talking about your wife and kids. Pretty pathetic to say the least.
Thank you again MikeB.
SolidSnakex said:
I'm always more worried about Cambridge's gameplay design than their tech, which is almost always excellent, their gameplay design is a bit iffy, Sony London obviously much more so, some of that has to do with design decisions that don't really make sense to me, it's like Heavenly Sword and the lack of jump.
Some related info, I highlighted the parts relevant to why many early games failed to get enough out of the hardware:
Regarding Emergent's cross-platform Gamebryo Element engine:
"Given that we, like many other developers, were faced with the problem of converting our mostly single-threaded engine to run well on the PS3, they started to research techniques for leveraging the SPUs on the PS3 while reducing the workload on programmers.
The presentation that they put together offered several proposals for how to implement various systems on SPUs. Those proposals evolved into a design that we later implemented during Gamebryo 2.3. Our goal was to put together a system that both simplified our internal development and allowed our licensees to easily parallelize their game logic. There are a few features from that presentation that we have not implemented yet, but the design comes largely from that presentation"
"Programming for Cell requires managing a different set of problems than the shared memory machines that most developers are used to using. You have to make sure your data fits into the local stores of the SPUs, and you need to get that data to those SPUs.
If you write a multithreaded engine for a multicore or PC, you will almost definitely have to re-architect significant pieces to run well on the Cell architecture. They will run well if you invest enough development time though, theres certainly power in that chip."
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16924
Regarding Emergent's cross-platform Gamebryo Element engine:
"Given that we, like many other developers, were faced with the problem of converting our mostly single-threaded engine to run well on the PS3, they started to research techniques for leveraging the SPUs on the PS3 while reducing the workload on programmers.
The presentation that they put together offered several proposals for how to implement various systems on SPUs. Those proposals evolved into a design that we later implemented during Gamebryo 2.3. Our goal was to put together a system that both simplified our internal development and allowed our licensees to easily parallelize their game logic. There are a few features from that presentation that we have not implemented yet, but the design comes largely from that presentation"
"Programming for Cell requires managing a different set of problems than the shared memory machines that most developers are used to using. You have to make sure your data fits into the local stores of the SPUs, and you need to get that data to those SPUs.
If you write a multithreaded engine for a multicore or PC, you will almost definitely have to re-architect significant pieces to run well on the Cell architecture. They will run well if you invest enough development time though, theres certainly power in that chip."
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16924
Choke on the Magic
Banned
Some of that was a bit over my head, but it was definitely a good read.
ZeroTolerance
Junior Member
Amazingly, all the game that uses the SPE's look insanely great.
BruceWayneIII
Member
Core407 said:
Well, it didn't prevent e.g. Naughty Dog to deliver an outstanding piece of work, despite it was their first PS3 game.
Obaid said:
which game is it? i will order it right now.
Ghosthunter was one of the most underrated games of the previous generation. It had an unusual sense of humor, so many dismissed it saying "it looks good but it's not scary." I think many missed the boat on this game. The lead character has a wisecracking sense of humor that's a little like Nathan Drake's from Uncharted. It's a game that didn't take itself too seriously. Many reviewers hated it, but I really enjoyed it.
true. plus, we need to keep in mind that Guerrilla is was acquired for their technology. by that, you can bet they were and still are helping with the tools and dev tech for the PS3 for Sony and their partners. I believe that is why KZ2 took this long to be unveiled.BruceWayneIII said:
PS3 had a slow start, but devs are getting better aquanted and it shows. from 08 onwards, we'll be seeing more and bigger leaps. Insomniac said it best when they said and showed us what it is like with their games.
Xisiqomelir
Member
This is a good bump because it let me snag the "Lazy Devs" kitten for future reposting.
SolidSnakex
Member
All teams developing first party Sony titles help each other. Which is why they almost all come out look very impressive.
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