bitbydeath
Gold Member
If it's going to happen it'll launch Q1 next year at the latest.
Why? Because this is 4Ks year not next year or the year after but 2016.
Why? Because this is 4Ks year not next year or the year after but 2016.
PS4K information (~2x GPU power w/ clock+, new CPU, price, tent. Q1 2017)
- Thread starter OsirisBlack
- Start date
Well in 6 months 4k tvs will no doubt be affordable.
Papacheeks
Banned
They already are super cheap now?
The issue is there's no content still. ANd it will be another 5 years or so until broadcast updates their transmitters, or changes their transmitting completely to fiber.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
It surprises me so many think Sony would revert back to the PS3 days and complicate a relatively simple PS4 system after what they went through with it. I think the below pictures show the stark difference.
Marty Chinn
Member
I don't get why this is the year. 4K sets are cheap already. TV sales in general are in decline year over year. All 4K is doing is replacing 1080p sets to be the standard that you can buy instead of driving growth. It's just like at some point 3D TVs became pretty standard because they were the default option. The same goes with Smart TVs.
Obliterator
Member
I think its because in that strange Gopher post he directly references dual GPU's.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Where I get confused with the dual GPUs is that the PS4 has a APU. Does that mean those that talk of this mean that there will be the APU and then a separate GPU or another APU?
Either way, it makes no sense to me.
Either way, it makes no sense to me.
vpance
Member
That's not even a close comparison. It's literally just 2 smaller GPUs instead of 1 big one. If you know what AMD is doing with SoC it's nothing out of the ordinary.
Like I suggested, the 'second GPU' could be more like the scaling engines you get in Bravia TVs. So it'd handle UHD HDR decoding and up scaling of PS4 games to 4K, but that's about it.
It surprises me so many think Sony would revert back to the PS3 days and complicate a relatively simple PS4 system after what they went through with it. I think the below pictures show the stark difference.
Exactly.
I think it surprises many that Sony would risk changing the RAM configuration to access more bandwidth for a hypothetical new more powerful GPU and change an entire CPU architecture as well, so i guess the thought is that nothing is off the table if they were really changing the internal components...
But those people should realize that this is only potentially on the table because of the die shrink in 16finfet most likely being far more significant than Sony thought it would be, and thus have leeway to do something more ambitious for their mid cycle refresh plans.
They still would not do anything to over complicate the minimal investment they would have planned for something like this as opposed to a full hardware refresh ala PS5, especially for an inclusion of two GPU's in their entirety as a completely different hardware board, its not "just two smaller GPU's"
And i still don't fully believe in the hardware upgrade rumors fully, even though we know the PS4K as a HW revision of the PS4 exists
Could be like AMD dual graphics where they let you use the APU & dGPU work together on graphics
THE:MILKMAN
Member
But you accept that would be (more) complicated for devs? After just two years, and for the first time since the 16bit days that the two main console were very similar, Sony would do this?
The simplest way Sony could upgrade the PS4 to extend this gen would be a new APU based on a cut down/semi-custom Polaris 10 with 4/8 core Zen and 8GB GDD5x. Basically the latest version of what the PS4 is now.
That wouldn't be possible to launch for ~1 year though and the consensus is that's out.
So a slim/4K media/14nm PS4 seems favorite. I just question the amount it would cost Sony to do this versus the other option. Can't be much difference in the costs?
HerroRygar
Member
So my PS4 is having an issue where it constantly beeps and tries to eject a non-existent disc from the drive. This happens even in rest mode. It's totally random, and super annoying. Debating whether I spend $163 now to have it serviced, or just grit my teeth and deal with until this PS4K comes out. If it's going to come out.
I just wish I had a concrete answer. Hopefully they say something at E3.
I just wish I had a concrete answer. Hopefully they say something at E3.
Silent Hill
Banned
I think we got played a few months ago Cerny was going around showing the PS4K to devs right in our face & we didn't even know it
No that was for Kojima to see what tech Sony has to offer for him and his studio.
Thanks for the summary. I got completely lost coming back to the last few pages >.<
If anything, PS4 doing UHD would help the industry, not hurt it... high price of players is a big deal against acceptance of new format.
And the thought that Sony would actually gimp their product to help the competition... what? Makes no sense at all.
$163 is a crazy amount for that problem. I had the issue on one of my PS4's but it was either in warranty or on a service plan. I'm so glad I bought the protection plan from Sony as I have had 2 PS4 fail in some manner. When you get the ps4k invest in the protection plan.
Could be something like when you use 2 or more PS3's to run GT5/GT6 on more screens but now it's one PS4K & it's being done at the system level.
In that case would devs even have to know that they are making a PS4K game right now?
Simpler than that would be a die shrink and clock speed bump, doubt we'd see double the GPU power from that though. It could make a considerable difference to CPU speed though. Updated Jaguar cores (Puma) run at 2.5GHz no problem on 28nm as it is.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
Up to this point there was next to no content available.
But look it is starting.
http://www.engadget.com/2016/04/11/4k-blu-ray-uk/
Marty Chinn
Member
The content is still going to be sparse for the rest of the year though. It's going to trickle in and it'll likely be even more niche that blu rays. So nothing points to this being the year of 4K.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
It's the year content is seriously made for it which will drive adoption, that is what it is all about.
So? I mean the system isn't going to have two GPUs unless Sony wants to fuck the PS4 series sideways.
jeff_rigby
Banned
h.265 is 1.5 times as compute intensive as h.264. The PS3 can have 4 or more h.264 video streams playing at the same time on the XMB. There is a reason the XMB has video clips playing, it's to demonstrate the power of the PS3.
jeff_rigby
Banned
They have a problem as do most of the bottom end made in China LED backlits. The LEDs are connected in series like the older Christmas tree lights and when one opens they all go off. Another problem is they are driven with about 280 volts and have no protection circuitry so if a LED cracks an arc can form and start an internal fire.They are affordable now (I wouldn't trust that brand but hey it's only $299)
Samsung, Sharp, Sony and other edge lit LED TVs have 4 or more arrays with lower voltage (about 80 V) so the risk of an ARC is less and they do have circuits to detect too much or too little current draw and shut down the TV.
I see why they are trying to give them away lol
They are affordable now (I wouldn't trust that brand but hey it's only $299)
It is also missing any form HDR which is likely to be the largest improvement over 1080P video currently. Who knows lag time, either. Save your money folks.
Brad Grenz
Member
Two GPUs actually makes sense in a number of ways. It allows them to maintain perfect compatibility with existing games. It allows them to shrink the current APU without the need to maintain different designs and inventory for both versions of the PS4. A dedicated GPU in the PS4K would also have its own memory bus alleviating bandwidth concerns. It would probably be a GPU with the same number of shaders as the APU contains with 4GB of gddr5 on a 128bit bus and a high-speed connection to the APU.
It would not be as simple for devs as a single larger GPU but many of the drawbacks to SLI on PC wouldn't exist in a close platform with good API support.
Honestly I think dual GPUs are more likely than a redezign usin Polaris and/or Zen tech.
It would not be as simple for devs as a single larger GPU but many of the drawbacks to SLI on PC wouldn't exist in a close platform with good API support.
Honestly I think dual GPUs are more likely than a redezign usin Polaris and/or Zen tech.
mitchman
Gold Member
No mention of HEVC in that link. Sounds like a bit of a marketing fluff, tbh.
Link seems dead. Still pretty thin to make any definitive conclusions.
Making a conclusion based on what a random Sony rep says at a trade show seems thin and speculative. He could easily have gotten it wrong and be talking about the ability to output a 4k@24p signal, which the PS4 can do now.
I could see this, it might work if thats how they plan to make PS5,6 etc. They could probably shrink the PS4s APU down quite a bit over time and just pack that in to every future console, kind of like what they did with PS1 support. Could probably just use that APU for system-level stuff, turn on some more cpu cores and the discrete GPU for PS6 games
Not sure if that's a good approach. If you keep adding more processors on top for every successor it'll introduce more potential points of failure in manufacturing. Eventually it just becomes more feasible to maintain compatibility via software.
Although that being said, software emulation record with Sony is spotty.
StickSoldier
Member
What's the general consensus on upgraded versions of consoles? I think it's horrible and I even hate it when Nintendo does this shit with their handhelds. I pray that this isn't real and consoles don't go down a similar route of the PC with constant upgrades to keep up with.
Callibretto
Member
I'm all for it, even without any mid gen upgrade, games in the later half of generation will start performing worse and worse because developer become more ambitious with their games. so there will be more and more sub1080p games with below 30fps average games as this gen goes on. what mid gen upgrade bring is the options to play those games in better res and framerate.
they only need to make sure that there won't be PS4k exclusive games. that all ps4k will be playable in ps4.
Well with power consumption and per-core processor speed hitting a wall, i think we'll be seeing a lot more cores in our future. I dont know if we'll see 32 or something, but im going to guess we could see 12 or even 16 cores in the next few gens.
I agree that software emulation might be easier if they stay iterative with the hardware, but what if they can repurpose the PS4's apu for the next consoles? Free emulation, could handle the OS or something when not in use as a PS4, i would imagine the PS4 could handle apps and media for the next decade or two. The PS2 had a PS1 board in it for emulation and hdd access, so it wouldnt be the first time
The_Inquisitor
Member
That's not how semiconductor processing works. Typically, defects are random in nature. Just cause you put more cores on a silicon die does not mean magically you get more failures. What gets more complicated is the POWER consumption since dynamic power consumption P = C*VDD^2*f where vdd is the supply rail, C is capacitance, and f is the clock frequency. Adding more transistors means more capacitance. So power increases meaning that you need to watch power dissipation of the package containing the CPU/GPU. That's the bigger concern.
Looking back on the conversation I guess it wasn't clear if the second gpu or processor would be on a separate die which was what I was thinking, would that formula still apply?
This & Gameboy Color are the 2 times that it made perfect sense.
This is about pushing better graphics just to be pushing better graphics it's about giving the 4K market some content to enjoy as they transition into the 4K era. right now all we have is a few Netflix , Amazon & Youtube shows/movies then there is other 4K services & micro consoles that are 4K but nothing that's really giving the 4K owners full time justice or giving the none 4K TV owners a reason to want to become a 4K TV owner. this move from Sony would give us the full package & not just another way to watch the same 4K content that we are already able to watch with the SmartTV apps & Amazon FireTV or Shield TV.
The people that don't want this seem a little selfish, you don't want other people to have something better than what you have even though you have the same option as them to buy the new model. You bought the PS4 because it was what you wanted & that shouldn't change just because they are catering to the 4K TV owners.
How did you get that number?
The main reason tiling is less suitable is that it's much harder to make it reliably-transparent to the application, and tile-boundaries will create completely different "edge cases" for each application to handle.Metfanant said:
As for "guess-work" - no, transform of pixel->screen is deterministic - you know exactly where new pixels land if you would render in larger resolution, which translates to subpixel offsets when operating 4x lower.
More importantly - as pixels don't need to be on an ordered grid like normal rendering(distribution can be arbitrary with this method), it actually leads to quality improvements in general case (this assumes use of AA - if you are targeting none, ordered grid is preferable, but anyway it's entirely a choice for the use-case at hand).
jeff_rigby
Banned
From research on HEVC, I spent a couple of hours reading papers. Early 2013 there were many articles about HEVC codecs and what they require. I did the research to determine if a small block of Xtensa processors could handle HEVC in software rather than a dedicated hardware codec which was before Microsoft announced the XB1 could handle both encode and decode as well as profile 10 HEVC and all of it multi-view.
mitchman, HEVC has been confirmed. What more do you want...there is more proof that it's possible.mitchman said:
http://images.anandtech.com/doci/9319/Slide 38 - Win 10 Acceleration.png
Multi-view and decoding multiple HD streams in a HEVC stream is for Antenna and Cable TV. Microsoft has announced 1080P DVR support for Antenna TV. The current US TV standard only supports up to 1080i. 1080P is a ATSC 3 4K standard if ATSC 2 is being skipped. Antenna TV 4K uses the same standards that a UHD blu-ray uses. It's speculated that UHD blu-ray players will be used as ATSC 3 (4K antenna TV) STBs. The XB1 will be a UHD Blu-ray player and Microsoft is preparing for TV support. Sony has the same plans for the PS3 and PS4. Interesting finds showing PS4, XB1 and PS3 media plans. To support a FCC Downloadable security scheme requires a TEE, embedded DRM and HDMI 2 = PS4 and XB1
It was a 4K home theater show with 20K+ projectors so more than a simple rep. Why do you think the PS4 was being shown along with the top of the line Sony 4K projectors if not that it would support 4K for those projectors.mitchman said:
I don't base a conclusion on the word of a REP, I did the research and provided cites. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1086342
It's been confirmed the XB1 and AMD Kaveri support HEVC with the same Xtensa accelerators entirely in that ARM TEE and do not require the use of GPU cycles. This is a must if the XB1 is to have a media power mode of about 20 watts which requires the GPU off. The PS4 currently has a Media power of about 120 watts and after a firmware update enabling the Xtensa processors in the Southbridge the PS4 can do the same. This is what I believe is happening this October. Another primary issue will also be addressed and that is Embedded Playready which will be enabled at the same time.
Research? Xtensa?
It would need a software decoder to confirm that your initial statement is true, not reading papers.
So the proof is that you read papers which is not a proof. A proof would be a coz load graph from a software decoder which decodes a video encoded in h264 and h265 and then look at how demanding the decode process is. Or a measurement of fps with each codec.
I'm still angry that Sony waited over a year to launch the extended warranty in the UK, then refused to offer the warranty to launch systems (because they were technically out of the standard warranty by that point). It should have been there from launch or at the very least extended to launch systems.
SMOK3Y
Generous Member
Have you done the screw turning method?
jeff_rigby
Banned
You want me to prove that Xtensa accelerators can support HEVC or that they are being used as Software accelerators for HEVC or do you just want to nit-pick. I was responding to a post saying the Xtensa accelerators didn't have enough power to support HEVC codecs and that vastly overstated what is requires for HEVC.
10/21/2014 I created the thread; Hardware for Media Hub features in both the XB1 and PS4 "kinda confirmed" which is unconfirmed speculation and 6/2015 after the XB1 announced HEVC support I created the Thread The PS4 will support UHD Blu-ray which is not worded as speculation. I had enough proof that I did not think it was speculation.
The money is in ATSC 3 not UHD Blu-ray and both Microsoft and Sony have been planning to support ATSC 3 for years before the Launch of the XB1 and PS4.
Every mention of DP/HDMI is for a HDMI 2 port which takes features from DP and is in the Yukon slide (2010 leaked Microsoft powerpoint) and these slides from Microsoft:
2013 bottom right DP/HDMI
2010 bottom right Display Port Notice also ATSC which is about the Antenna TV standard = ATSC 3 if they mention Display port.
FrozenCell
Member
so is it coming this year or wat
next year