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[S0ULZB0URNE]

I’m just playing and trying to be funny haha seems like people here haven’t seen The 40 Year Old Virgin to appreciate the gif. Regardless, I’m not really a fan of the launch PS5’s design, but I’ve not been a fan of any of PlayStations designs since probably the PS2 line. I have a PS5 Slim with the drive and its aesthetic has grown on me though. Regardless of its look, I’ve really enjoyed using the console the past 6 or 7 months I’ve owned it. So much so that I’d upgrade to a Pro immediately.

Slim looks better than the launch IMO.

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

Slim looks better than the launch IMO.

But it's louder and the build quality is trash.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

But it's louder and the build quality is trash.

You got a defective unit or something?

 

[Little Mac]

But it's louder and the build quality is trash.

Strange. I can’t hear mine except for the disk drive verifying disks occasionally. No bullshit. I have mine horizontal and I do hate those little plastic stands that come with it though. Other than those issues, it’s been awesome and I’m enjoying myself catching up on all the Sony exclusives I missed out on.

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

You got a defective unit or something?

What are you talking about??

 

[Imtjnotu]

PSSR can help to a point.

PSSR will have every game running at 240fps and bring back game informer.

Willing to bet on it

 

[SonGoku]

Going low on price for a console that again would presumably get scalped to kingdom come at any price below £850, I think Sony know the niche of the market they are selling the Pro to - without damaging PS6 early demand - and will want to choose a price that lets them sell 20m with each Pro console subsidizing 1of 20m reduced price base PS5s up to £150, maybe with Pro consumers trading in their base PS5 in to and increasing the PS5 install base factored into that price too.

My estimate depends of the final specs of the Pro. If its 6nm and below a RTX4070 then it could target $500 just like the PS4 Pro targeted base PS4 launch price ($400)
If its on a more expensive node like 5N or 4N and trades blows with a 4070 then they can target $600 and up while still being appealing.

My other point was about base PS5 sales declining/stagnating, a price cut would boost and revitalize base PS5 sales as we seen gen after gen

Below £750 are Sony going to make a decent profit on the Pro and/or discourage any scalpers of risk, is my thought. I have serious doubts that Sony have much latitude against cost of living/inflation to reduce base PS5 price that will re-kickstart the next tier of owners, so selling the Pro at cost to feed scalpers when the core demand will be there at any price seems unlikely IMO.

A underwhelming specced Pro (4060Ti tier) at $500 is not gonna set the world on fire and people are not going to rush to buy overpriced "weak" PS5 Pros from scalpers. I dont remember the PS4 Pro being scalped when it launched at $400

Agree with a lot of this. Sales are good comparitively to their peers, but Xbox has been struggling mightily and Switch has been out so long(and a good price) that it has kind of peaked out.

Sales as a whole are down because, despite what is said about the economy doing well, a fairly sizable amount of people are NOT feeling it because inflation is putting the squeeze on folks.

Games/Systems are one of the first "luxuries" to get cut out, followed by fast food(imo) and that industry is seeing declines as customers balk at higher prices or wait for deals, forcing them to lower prices.

It's a niche product, but I think $599 is about as high as they can risk going, if that.

Not to mention at this point of the generation all PS systems would have had substantial price cuts while the PS5 retains its launch price of $400 for DE and $500 Physical

The base PS5 (non-disc SKU) launched at $400 in 2020. There is no way, none at all that the current PS5 refresh doesn't cost less than that to make today. In truth probably for a while now. That they still sell it at $400+, regardless of whatever they are saying, comes down to them simply knowing they can get away with it and that they are also Ok with the rate the platform is selling in currently.

Its not like they are going to come out and say that, "Hey, we can drop the price if we wanted, but we want to be making a profit on each box sold so we won't".

Now when looking at the cost of the PS5pro, we need to ask one simple question... how is it different from the OG PS5? And the simple answer to that is two fold, RAM and APU. They are using 16gbs RAM chips vs the 14Gbs used in the OG PS5 and using an APU that would be more expensive. These additional costs are not just some standalone price hikes, no, in fact, they are hikes on top the existing component budget. That is to say, it already will cost sony around $70-80 to make the current PS5 APU, the APU for the Pro would likely cost them just like $50 more. The cost hike for the RAM would be mostly negligible, as they are only using faster RAM and not increasing the quantity. For all we know that could be achieved simply by increasing the power/clocks of the RAM they are already using, but even if they were using different modules, that wouldn't add more than $30 to their RAM budget.

Not much else is changing. This means what we are looking at on top the BOM of a current PS5, is probably around $80-$100. Selling the console without a disc drive, means they can sell the thing for $500 and still be making a profit. When I see people say $599... I honestly wonder if they have ever given thought to what exactly, in a PS5pro, will make it cost $200 more than the base PS5. that is $200 in costs ON TOP of everything that is already in the PS5. It just doesn't make sense.

100% agree, the only way i see it selling for $599 is if they use a newer node like 5N or 4N and match or edge out 4070 performance
At 6nm with 4060Ti+ performance it can definitely sell for $500 without a disc drive

 

[GreyHand23]

The base PS5 (non-disc SKU) launched at $400 in 2020. There is no way, none at all that the current PS5 refresh doesn't cost less than that to make today. In truth probably for a while now. That they still sell it at $400+, regardless of whatever they are saying, comes down to them simply knowing they can get away with it and that they are also Ok with the rate the platform is selling in currently.

Its not like they are going to come out and say that, "Hey, we can drop the price if we wanted, but we want to be making a profit on each box sold so we won't".

Now when looking at the cost of the PS5pro, we need to ask one simple question... how is it different from the OG PS5? And the simple answer to that is two fold, RAM and APU. They are using 16gbs RAM chips vs the 14Gbs used in the OG PS5 and using an APU that would be more expensive. These additional costs are not just some standalone price hikes, no, in fact, they are hikes on top the existing component budget. That is to say, it already will cost sony around $70-80 to make the current PS5 APU, the APU for the Pro would likely cost them just like $50 more. The cost hike for the RAM would be mostly negligible, as they are only using faster RAM and not increasing the quantity. For all we know that could be achieved simply by increasing the power/clocks of the RAM they are already using, but even if they were using different modules, that wouldn't add more than $30 to their RAM budget.

Not much else is changing. This means what we are looking at on top the BOM of a current PS5, is probably around $80-$100. Selling the console without a disc drive, means they can sell the thing for $500 and still be making a profit. When I see people say $599... I honestly wonder if they have ever given thought to what exactly, in a PS5pro, will make it cost $200 more than the base PS5. that is $200 in costs ON TOP of everything that is already in the PS5. It just doesn't make sense.

What you aren’t including is the cost of R&D which will be spread across the projected number of units sold. PS5 Pro won’t sell nearly as much as the base PS5 so this price increase will be more.

 

[asdasdasdbb]

100% agree, the only way i see it selling for $599 is if they use a newer node like 5N or 4N and match or edge out 4070 performance
At 6nm with 4060Ti+ performance it can definitely sell for $500 without a disc drive

It'll be $599 (or more) without the disk. Sony still says the Slim is being sold as a loss at it's current prices... the Pro won't be sold at a loss.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

What are you talking about??

What are you talking about?
I don't see my Slim or Phat PS5 in that video.

 

[StereoVsn]

The only thing dissapointing is the CPU doesn't seem its going to get enough of a boost for CPU limited games.

Yep, that CPU approach is a shame as there are plenty of games where PS5 CPU is at a disadvantage. It’s not as bad as PS4’s netbook equivalent , but still not amazing.

 

[StereoVsn]

PSSR can help to a point.

“To a point” being the key here.

 

[scydrex]

It'll be $599 (or more) without the disk. Sony still says the Slim is being sold as a loss at it's current prices... the Pro won't be sold at a loss.

How? I think a while ago Sony said or there was an article saying Sony don't lose money in the ps5 disc anymore. With the digital i think it does. From 2021...

Sony’s $499 PS5 is no longer selling at a loss

The PS5 won’t be costly like the PS3.

www.theverge.com

 

[Mibu no ookami]

That's the thing. The Portal isn't for a mass market audience. I'd imagine the ceiling is 10 million world wide for the Portal.

That is mass market. It's not getting 10 million units.

The Dreamcast never even hit 10 million for reference.

 

[Lagspike_exe]

Isn't that what PSSR is for?

PSSR only helps in GPU-limited scenario. Frame interpolation can help with CPU-bounded games, but it starts working really well only at 50-60 FPS.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

100% agree, the only way i see it selling for $599 is if they use a newer node like 5N or 4N and match or edge out 4070 performance
At 6nm with 4060Ti+ performance it can definitely sell for $500 without a disc drive

Even at 5nm, that will not justify its cost. To elaborate, a 7nm wafer cost around $10k. A 5nm wafer cost around $17k. Now if we assume that Sony is making the same sized chip on 5nm that they made on 7nm (which it shouldn't be) then that means that the APU would cost Sony around 70% more.

But that wafer pricing was as of 2022. So it's no doubt less now. But even if we assume its still the same pricing, and assume that the OG PS5 APU costs $120, then it means the PS5pro APU would cost no more than $200. And that would be the single most expensive component in the console. Everything else, RAM, SSD, PCB, PSU...etc would not cost up to $200. And this is all worst-case scenario pricing.

What you aren’t including is the cost of R&D which will be spread across the projected number of units sold. PS5 Pro won’t sell nearly as much as the base PS5 so this price increase will be more.

R&D costs for stuff like this is minimal to negligent. And they sure as hell are not spreading it out over the console.

 

[onQ123]

Isn't that what PSSR is for?

GPUs can pretty much run all the CPU workloads now especially in a pro console that only needs to enhance what's already being done on the base model.

 

[onQ123]

PSSR only helps in GPU-limited scenario. Frame interpolation can help with CPU-bounded games, but it starts working really well only at 50-60 FPS.

Consoles games haven't done much different since the PS3/Xbox 360 days how much do you think is really being limited by the CPU in a pro console?

They are not making new games for the pro it will still be playing PS5/Xbox Series level games.

 

[PaintTinJr]

...

I find it difficult to believe FP16 is better than Int8 at neural network image upsampling.

....

Why? The quality of the quantization you started discussing always favours more levels, like 16bit quantized audio is vastly superior to 8bit quantization with the same encoding schemes and game visuals are largely about displaying shades of colour, and an 8bit system can only do pseudo HDR like HL2 did back in the day on RGBA_8888 GPUs, so the inadequacy of representing full spectrum HDR in 8bit encoding should easily be appreciated. Unlike many data domains, colour pixel variety in modern day games with complex lighting doesn't predictably leave large parts of the spectrum unused to allow for quantizing entire scenes to a lower data INT8 scheme without quantization error.

This can be readily seen in the use of block compress like BC7 where each block of the texture can pick a different quantization method so as to divide and conquer to facilitate using INT8 quantization because the amount of spectrum variation in a 4x4 RGBA block (of 16) texels is limited even if the entire texture might use a full 24 or 32bit colour palette overall.

 

[asdasdasdbb]

How? I think a while ago Sony said or there was an article saying Sony don't lose money in the ps5 disc anymore. With the digital i think it does. From 2021...

Sony’s $499 PS5 is no longer selling at a loss

The PS5 won’t be costly like the PS3.

www.theverge.com

That was before inflation. IIRC Sony made a comment in their last financial report that it was "positive" that they sold less PS5's than anticipated.

Also the wafer prices at TSMC for their newer nodes have been going up, not down. It's Crazytown, I know.

 

[winjer]

Even at 5nm, that will not justify its cost. To elaborate, a 7nm wafer cost around $10k. A 5nm wafer cost around $17k. Now if we assume that Sony is making the same sized chip on 5nm that they made on 7nm (which it shouldn't be) then that means that the APU would cost Sony around 70% more.

But that wafer pricing was as of 2022. So it's no doubt less now. But even if we assume its still the same pricing, and assume that the OG PS5 APU costs $120, then it means the PS5pro APU would cost no more than $200. And that would be the single most expensive component in the console. Everything else, RAM, SSD, PCB, PSU...etc would not cost up to $200. And this is all worst-case scenario pricing.

R&D costs for stuff like this is minimal to negligent. And they sure as hell are not spreading it out over the console.

Considering the same die size (208mm^2) for the base PS5 and the Pro, and the same defect rate of 0.09 per cm2.
The chip in the PS5 at N7 should cost around $52. While the chip in the Pro should cost 95$.
Ram on the Pro is a bit faster, so it should cost a few extra cents per chip.

If everything else has a similar cost, the pro should be around 50$ more expensive to make.

 

[NeonDelta]

Getting bored now. Give me some more leaks, a prototype, an announcement of an announcement Of an announcement. Anything, gimme

 

[Loxus]

Why? The quality of the quantization you started discussing always favours more levels, like 16bit quantized audio is vastly superior to 8bit quantization with the same encoding schemes and game visuals are largely about displaying shades of colour, and an 8bit system can only do pseudo HDR like HL2 did back in the day on RGBA_8888 GPUs, so the inadequacy of representing full spectrum HDR in 8bit encoding should easily be appreciated. Unlike many data domains, colour pixel variety in modern day games with complex lighting doesn't predictably leave large parts of the spectrum unused to allow for quantizing entire scenes to a lower data INT8 scheme without quantization error.

This can be readily seen in the use of block compress like BC7 where each block of the texture can pick a different quantization method so as to divide and conquer to facilitate using INT8 quantization because the amount of spectrum variation in a 4x4 RGBA block (of 16) texels is limited even if the entire texture might use a full 24 or 32bit colour palette overall.

So why does XeSS need DP4a and PSSR need Int8 to upscale?

 

[Loxus]

I already said we were talking about both things.
And each works best with different precision rates.

I was only talking about upscaling the entire time.

I don't know where this compression, decompression and BC7 came from.

 

[winjer]

I was only talking about upscaling the entire time.

I don't know where this compression, decompression and BC7 came from.

I wasn't talking to you. Was was having talking with PaintTinJr about several questions. From rasterization, upscaling, texture compression, terminology, etc.
And it was a great conversation about tech.

 

[Dorfdad]

Pretty confident going by how Death Stranding 2 seemed to be utilizing some sort of RTGI solution in its latest trailer, which I guess Guerrilla would be able to retroactively bring to Forbidden West in order to put it on the same visual level as the rumored Zero Dawn remake that's expected to be running on the most up-to-date version of Decima, just like DS2 does.

On top of that, Forbidden West does sound like it could very well be the poster child - alongside GT7, Demon's Souls and Ragnarök - for one of the PS5 Pro utilization examples that Sony provided in their documentation:

Sure hope Red Dead Reemption 2 gets a 60fps patch and bump, but rockstar will probably wait 2 years and remaster it..

 

[Loxus]

I wasn't talking to you. Was was having talking with PaintTinJr about several questions. From rasterization, upscaling, texture compression, terminology, etc.
And it was a great conversation about tech.

Anyway, forget that.

Can Zen2 scale to 5nm?

 

[winjer]

Can Zen2 scale to 5nm?

Of course it can.
The problem is that it requires new masks, but that will already be done because of the GPU.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Considering the same die size (208mm^2) for the base PS5 and the Pro, and the same defect rate of 0.09 per cm2.
The chip in the PS5 at N7 should cost around $52. While the chip in the Pro should cost 95$.
Ram on the Pro is a bit faster, so it should cost a few extra cents per chip.

If everything else has a similar cost, the pro should be around 50$ more expensive to make.

Firstly I assume that 208 was a typo and you meant to say 308mm2. But yes you are right, but I would hike the price up a bit, as AMD surely would be making some profit on top each APU they sell to Sony. Cause that is what everyone seems to be forgetting. Sony, is buying their chips from AMD... not from TSMC. Hence, a 308mm2 N7 chip while costing AMD ~$60, will cost sony around $80-$120 to get from AMD. Price would be lower depending on the volume of chips ordered. So for Sony, that would likely mean it cost them $80-$100/chip. Let's just call it $90.

So its safe to say that the PS5pro chip can cost Sony anywhere between $130-$140.

Even though the RAM in the PS5pro is faster, its still GDDR6. And what people tend to overlook, is that both 14Gbs and 16Gbs GDDR6 chips, are identical. There is really not a single thing different in them. In both cases, PAM2 encoding is used. Only difference is how much power is used to drive the chip (and in turn, which chips are better suited to maintain the higher power draw, chips that cant take in enough power to be 16Gbs+, will be sold for less as 14Gbs chips). Only when we go to GDDR6X, do we start seeing differences (uses PAM4).

Anyways, furthermore, as at the time the PS5 launched, 1GB of GDDR6 was around $8 in spot pricing. Now, its around $3.50. This means that in 2020, 16GB of GDDR6 would have cost Sony around $120. This year, it would cost them $56. Even if going for the best GDDR6 chips they can muster, that wouldn't put RAM costs past $60.

So, between the APU and RAM, they are already (only) at $200.

This is why I find it funny when I see people talk about $599 prices. Because Sony "can" and does sell the current PS5 for $399/$499... it doesn't mean they are not making a decent profit on them, or that that is the same kinda pricing strategy they would use with the PS5pro.

 

[Loxus]

Of course it can.
The problem is that it requires new masks, but that will already be done because of the GPU.

I thought the transistors are built for specific nodes only now we're in single digit nanometers.

Built for a specific color only and can't shrink beyond that.

If that the case, 5nm is a good bet.
AMD RDNA3/3.5 APUs are on 4nm though, that could be a possibility as well.

Wafer cost for Sony may be cheaper with bulk orders in the millions.


This is a good video on PS5 wafers.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Of course it can.
The problem is that it requires new masks, but that will already be done because of the GPU.

Yup... the PS5 uses an APU, so when masking for it, they are masking for both the CPU and GPU. They are not going to have a 7/6nm mask on one half of the APU and a 5nm mask on the other half lol. Now if the console used a chiplet or SOC design, then that's a different matter, as they can have the CPU and GPU be on different node sizes.

I thought the transistors are built for specific nodes only now we're in single digit nanometers.

Built for a specific color only and can't shrink beyond that.

If that the case, 5nm is a good bet.
AMD RDNA3/3.5 APUs are on 4nm though, that could be a possibility as well.

Wafer cost for Sony may be cheaper with bulk orders in the millions.


This is a good video on PS5 wafers.

I don't see that 4nm happening at all. The cost increase does not justify it when they can do just fine with 5nm. They clearly aren't pushing the tech that much harder... they would only go for a 4nm process if they were trying to push the CPU to say 4.5Ghz and the GPU to at least 2.4Ghz+. But the leaks indicate a somewhat conservative increase to clock speeds. CPU would likely be around 4Ghz and GPU around 2.3Ghz.

They should be able to comfortably achieve that with 5nm. Especially when you consider that just dropping from 7nm to 6nm they dropped the PS5 APU size from 308mm2 to 260mm2. Its even likely that at PS5por still uses 6nm, but if it's to be 5nm, it could even be a chip smaller than 308mm2. Likely be in the 280-290mm2 range.

 

[winjer]

Firstly I assume that 208 was a typo and you meant to say 308mm2. But yes you are right, but I would hike the price up a bit, as AMD surely would be making some profit on top each APU they sell to Sony. Cause that is what everyone seems to be forgetting. Sony, is buying their chips from AMD... not from TSMC. Hence, a 308mm2 N7 chip while costing AMD ~$60, will cost sony around $80-$120 to get from AMD. Price would be lower depending on the volume of chips ordered. So for Sony, that would likely mean it cost them $80-$100/chip. Let's just call it $90.

So its safe to say that the PS5pro chip can cost Sony anywhere between $130-$140.

Even though the RAM in the PS5pro is faster, its still GDDR6. And what people tend to overlook, is that both 14Gbs and 16Gbs GDDR6 chips, are identical. There is really not a single thing different in them. In both cases, PAM2 encoding is used. Only difference is how much power is used to drive the chip (and in turn, which chips are better suited to maintain the higher power draw, chips that cant take in enough power to be 16Gbs+, will be sold for less as 14Gbs chips). Only when we go to GDDR6X, do we start seeing differences (uses PAM4).

Anyways, furthermore, as at the time the PS5 launched, 1GB of GDDR6 was around $8 in spot pricing. Now, its around $3.50. This means that in 2020, 16GB of GDDR6 would have cost Sony around $120. This year, it would cost them $56. Even if going for the best GDDR6 chips they can muster, that wouldn't put RAM costs past $60.

So, between the APU and RAM, they are already (only) at $200.

This is why I find it funny when I see people talk about $599 prices. Because Sony "can" and does sell the current PS5 for $399/$499... it doesn't mean they are not making a decent profit on them, or that that is the same kinda pricing strategy they would use with the PS5pro.

Yes, it was a typo.
You are right, Sony buys these chips from AMD, there there is margin for AMD, for every chip.
Regarding ram, Sony can choose 2GB chips, which fit very nicely on 8 memory channels.
These are slightly cheaper, making the cost of the memory closer to 52$.
But yes, the cost of memory and the SoC is probably around 200$.

On the other hand, ever since Sony switched the SSD from a 12 channel controller, to a 8 channel controller, they are probably saving some money there.
Not enough to offset going to N5 for the SoC, but a saving nonetheless.

 

[winjer]

I thought the transistors are built for specific nodes only now we're in single digit nanometers.

Built for a specific color only and can't shrink beyond that.

Yes, each node has it's own transistor design, that is why it's necessary to have new masks.
There are also different rules in design, so the chip design has to be tweaked.
But the chip is not designed by hand, it's done using design tools that automate most of the process.
But it's not an impossible process. Companies have been doing it for decades now.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Yes, it was a typo.
You are right, Sony buys these chips from AMD, there there is margin for AMD, for every chip.
Regarding ram, Sony can choose 2GB chips, which fit very nicely on 8 memory channels.
These are slightly cheaper, making the cost of the memory closer to 52$.
But yes, the cost of memory and the SoC is probably around 200$.

On the other hand, ever since Sony switched the SSD from a 12 channel controller, to a 8 channel controller, they are probably saving some money there.
Not enough to offset going to N5 for the SoC, but a saving nonetheless.

Oh Sony definitely is using 2GB chips. They always have. And while a single 2GB chip cost more than a single 1GB chip, 8x 2GB chips cost less than 16 x 1GB chips.

I was just using that pricing because I couldn't find the spot prices of the 2GB chips. But yes, you are spot on... either way, a $60 RAM budget is a safe bet.

And yes, they are also saving money on the SSD too. But maybe that can be offset because they probably increase the size of the SSD capacity in the Pro, to at least 1TB? Either way, its not costing them more than $35 for a 1TB SSD.

 

[Fafalada]

But maybe that can be offset because they probably increase the size of the SSD capacity in the Pro, to at least 1TB? Either way, its not costing them more than $35 for a 1TB SSD.

Did we ever get an answer to 'what' the Slim uses for storage? I mean the capacity being 1TB indicates they changed the original layout, but it could also mean they stopped using bespoke chip-arrangement alltogether?
Either way I sort of expect the Pro might double internal storage - if nothing else for the added differentiation.

 

[winjer]

Oh Sony definitely is using 2GB chips. They always have. And while a single 2GB chip cost more than a single 1GB chip, 8x 2GB chips cost less than 16 x 1GB chips.

I was just using that pricing because I couldn't find the spot prices of the 2GB chips. But yes, you are spot on... either way, a $60 RAM budget is a safe bet.

And yes, they are also saving money on the SSD too. But maybe that can be offset because they probably increase the size of the SSD capacity in the Pro, to at least 1TB? Either way, its not costing them more than $35 for a 1TB SSD.

Las time I heard, it was around 6.7 - 6.8$ per 2GB GDDR6 chip.

The PS5 already has a model with 1TB. And price of flash has dropped a lot since the PS5 launched.
Between the controller and the flash, it's one of the reason why the PS5 is already profitable with some models. And the Pro will also benefit.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Did we ever get an answer to 'what' the Slim uses for storage? I mean the capacity being 1TB indicates they changed the original layout, but it could also mean they stopped using bespoke chip-arrangement alltogether?
Either way I sort of expect the Pro might double internal storage - if nothing else for the added differentiation.

Yh they stopped using the bespoke thingy. I even forgot the PS5slim now comes with 1TB. Embarrassing being I have a slim too lol. They could also take it up to 2TB as you pointed out, I doubt they would though. Its just not necessary.

 

[TheRedRiders]

Yh they stopped using the bespoke thingy. I even forgot the PS5slim now comes with 1TB. Embarrassing being I have a slim too lol. They could also take it up to 2TB as you pointed out, I doubt they would though. Its just not necessary.

They can make a PS5 Pro 2TB and charge an extra 100 on top of the retail price. They've done similar things in the past.

 

[Loxus]

Did we ever get an answer to 'what' the Slim uses for storage? I mean the capacity being 1TB indicates they changed the original layout, but it could also mean they stopped using bespoke chip-arrangement alltogether?
Either way I sort of expect the Pro might double internal storage - if nothing else for the added differentiation.

I don't think the SSD controller changed.
It should still have 12-channels.

The OG PS5 motherboard had 6 NAND- Flash, the new motherboard has 4.

Most likely 3 Flash PHY leads to 1 NAND-Flash now, instead of 2 Flash PHY in the OG PS5. At least that's how I understand it.

 

[PaintTinJr]

I was only talking about upscaling the entire time.

I don't know where this compression, decompression and BC7 came from.

BC - which you'll already know is a shorthand for Block Compression.

The neural network(ML) in Ragnarok we were discussing used 4K and 2K BC7 textures for training the model, and the (upscaling) output 4K textures inferenced don't produce raw RGBA texels, but BC7 blocks - that were already the product of a BC compressor doing INT8 quantization hence why those blocks needed quantized with more quantization levels than INT8. FP32 was the original solution choice in the paper, but FP16 was considered to be of similar quality but with double the performance, hence why they used FP16 instead of FP32 for the solution and the discussion of me suggesting DP4A wasn't needed on PS5 for that solution, and wouldn't have given major performance improvement vs FP16 if it had been appropriate because the custom solution optimised around scheduling so could be an interlaced workload in a frame.

 

[Imtjnotu]

BC - which you'll already know is a shorthand for Block Compression.

The neural network(ML) in Ragnarok we were discussing used 4K and 2K BC7 textures for training the model, and the (upscaling) output 4K textures inferenced don't produce raw RGBA texels, but BC7 blocks - that were already the product of a BC compressor doing INT8 quantization hence why those blocks needed quantized with more quantization levels than INT8. FP32 was the original solution choice in the paper, but FP16 was considered to be of similar quality but with double the performance, hence why they used FP16 instead of FP32 for the solution and the discussion of me suggesting DP4A wasn't needed on PS5 for that solution, and wouldn't have given major performance improvement vs FP16 if it had been appropriate because the custom solution optimised around scheduling so could be an interlaced workload in a frame.

 

[Loxus]

BC - which you'll already know is a shorthand for Block Compression.

The neural network(ML) in Ragnarok we were discussing used 4K and 2K BC7 textures for training the model, and the (upscaling) output 4K textures inferenced don't produce raw RGBA texels, but BC7 blocks - that were already the product of a BC compressor doing INT8 quantization hence why those blocks needed quantized with more quantization levels than INT8. FP32 was the original solution choice in the paper, but FP16 was considered to be of similar quality but with double the performance, hence why they used FP16 instead of FP32 for the solution and the discussion of me suggesting DP4A wasn't needed on PS5 for that solution, and wouldn't have given major performance improvement vs FP16 if it had been appropriate because the custom solution optimised around scheduling so could be an interlaced workload in a frame.

So your telling me that solution of upscaling is better than PS5 having DP4a and using a XeSS Sony equivalent?

 

[SonGoku]

If that the case, 5nm is a good bet.
AMD RDNA3/3.5 APUs are on 4nm though, that could be a possibility as well.

"5nm" and "4nm" are the same 5nm node 4N is just more refined and has a slight density and power improvement.
Any design made on 5nm is compatible with 4N

I wonder if it will be cheaper for Sony to use chiplets for example 6nm Zen 2 CPU die + GPU/IO die

 

[SonGoku]

So your telling me that solution of upscaling is better than PS5 having DP4a and using a XeSS Sony equivalent?

I think what he is saying is that for upscaling textures that solution is better.
But for upscaling the whole frame render scene AI hardware is best

 

[Physiognomonics]

The base PS5 (non-disc SKU) launched at $400 in 2020. There is no way, none at all that the current PS5 refresh doesn't cost less than that to make today. In truth probably for a while now. That they still sell it at $400+, regardless of whatever they are saying, comes down to them simply knowing they can get away with it and that they are also Ok with the rate the platform is selling in currently.

Its not like they are going to come out and say that, "Hey, we can drop the price if we wanted, but we want to be making a profit on each box sold so we won't".

Now when looking at the cost of the PS5pro, we need to ask one simple question... how is it different from the OG PS5? And the simple answer to that is two fold, RAM and APU. They are using 16gbs RAM chips vs the 14Gbs used in the OG PS5 and using an APU that would be more expensive. These additional costs are not just some standalone price hikes, no, in fact, they are hikes on top the existing component budget. That is to say, it already will cost sony around $70-80 to make the current PS5 APU, the APU for the Pro would likely cost them just like $50 more. The cost hike for the RAM would be mostly negligible, as they are only using faster RAM and not increasing the quantity. For all we know that could be achieved simply by increasing the power/clocks of the RAM they are already using, but even if they were using different modules, that wouldn't add more than $30 to their RAM budget.

Not much else is changing. This means what we are looking at on top the BOM of a current PS5, is probably around $80-$100. Selling the console without a disc drive, means they can sell the thing for $500 and still be making a profit. When I see people say $599... I honestly wonder if they have ever given thought to what exactly, in a PS5pro, will make it cost $200 more than the base PS5. that is $200 in costs ON TOP of everything that is already in the PS5. It just doesn't make sense.

Just a small correction. They are going to use 18 Gbps ram in PS5 Pro. It was the first thing leaked by Henderson.

 

[SegaSnatcher]

Just a small correction. They are going to use 18 Gbps ram in PS5 Pro. It was the first thing leaked by Henderson.

576GB/s bandwidth?

 

[MisterXDTV]

576GB/s bandwidth?

Yeah 29% faster than the original.

Might be more than that as memory will be used more "efficiently" according to the leaks

It's also 10% more in size (13.7 vs 12.5 GB)

 

[ChiefDada]

576GB/s bandwidth?

Yessir... and apparently it's real world performance will be even better than the number suggests.

 

[48086]

Any thoughts on when this is suppose to drop? Are we thinking late September or mid November or when? I'm really wanting a ps5 but I'm waiting for the pro.

 

[Ashamam]

Any thoughts on when this is suppose to drop? Are we thinking late September or mid November or when? I'm really wanting a ps5 but I'm waiting for the pro.

Thoughts are late August/September reveal, November release. Best guess right now.