PSM: PS4 specs more powerful than Xbox 720

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So they are making the same mistake again?

I have no interest in underpowered PlayStation platforms. I can't believe people want Sony -- of all companies -- to not go friggin' mad with its hardware. It always makes me chuckle when people pop into PS Vita threads to chat about how it should be less powerful.

I don't want a modest PS4. I want a monster.
 
It's easier to program for the 360, not just cheaper.

Those two are one and the same. Easier to program -> less money spent on programming man-hours (and education). But content production takes up the most time and money nowadays, and that's what's really holding games back. A significant advance in that area would result in a revolution.
 
Wrong. The Cell is a powerful mess that's quite ineffective for gaming. The calculations Cell is designed for are done much more effectively on GPGPUs which launched the same month as the PS3. It was a huge, expensive chip and it took years for developers to use it right. Even now it isn't that far ahead of Xenon (Cell does about twice its peak performance) and a more modern architecture would destroy it.

If there's going to be a Cell in the PS4 it will be for BC. It most certainly won't be its primary CPU.

I thought the kind of calculations a GPGPU are good at are almost exactly the same as the ones CELL is good at. GPGPUs are designed to speed up/hand off things from expensive, overly generalised x86 CPUs in PCs. CELL SPUs are ideal for gaming, not so good for general computing.

Yes, a GPU can do the same things, but if you're talking transistors, wouldn't you rather have your GPU spending its transistors on drawing stuff and let the CPU handle physics/AI etc? If the GPU takes that on, then inevitably it has less capacity for graphics.

and if some of the discussions are right and we'll get maybe an ATI 6xx equivalent - not bleeding edge GPU - then I'd like a nicely complementary CPU able to take some of the load and give me better games, rather than forcing everything onto the GPU.

Not to mention Sony has already shouldered the costs of CELL, it should be a lot cheaper/simpler to use that again in some way. And toolchains will be more intact from PS3 if they keep the same CPU, and BC will be easier.

In fact, I'm not really sure why people shit on CELL other than because it seems the thing to do.
 
I have no interest in underpowered PlayStation platforms. I can't believe people want Sony -- of all companies -- to not go friggin' mad with its hardware. It always makes me chuckle when people pop into PS Vita threads to chat about how it should be less powerful.

I don't want a modest PS4. I want a monster.


Same as how people figured it was a 'mistake' for PSP to be powerful.

When a platform doesn't do as well as expected, people will single out any differentiating characteristic (vs the more popular platform) as a 'mistake'. And will correlate one 'mistake' with another (e.g. ease of development). Which is nonsense. Being a good deal more powerful than DS was not a mistake for PSP - it was in fact what helped it get what success it did have. Similarly, being very powerful wasn't PS3's mistake in and of itself - it was how it got to that point and some of the choices made in the system as a whole (vs just processing guts) and where that led wrt cost.

But PS3 was a bit of an aberration in terms of Sony's relationship with technology vs cost. We can have a traditionally powerful playstation, with more traditionally appropriate pricepoints. And even without the traditional development complexity! Their most recent platform design speaks to all of that, IMO.
 
I'm honestly surprised that this thread is so large considering that there's so little information behind it. Even a bit disappointed that many people still think it will matter when they're both realistically bound to be very close together in capability no matter what the differences...especially after PS3, more than any other platform that I can think of, proved that more hype about superior technical capability comes with a cost to every single game having greater expectations than they are capable of delivering on, leading to an unfairly hot 'n cold reception for everything released and further taking the focus away from rewarding developers and publishers for their next-gen gameplay design ambitions while serving to promote more conservative designs that mainly exist to be technically impressive showcases above all else. And this is the type of 'flash first, game second'-type of releases that we've gotten far more of this gen than any other I can remember and, so far, it seems to have resulted in one of the blandest, most sequel- and rerelease-driven retail outputs of any gen, IMO.

It is obviously normal (and necessary) to want to see how far the new expensive hardware can go, but I'm hoping that one of the platform holders will want to start off their next platform's library with a focus on more new experiences rather than just concentrating on just franchise releases as updated graphics demos. I guess it's too early to be down on the next gen for continuing poorer trends, but maybe not.
 
maybe its just hope that there will be noticable differences. Either to justify a likely purchase, or just to provide some variety. Isn't it a little sad if we just agree and say 'yeah, they'll probably be about the same'?

and lets not just use PS3/360 as our yardstick. Previous generations have shown us the only thing we can predict is that nothing is predictable.
 
The problem with the PS3 wasn't taht it was too powerful. The problem was it was only marginally more powerful thatn the 360 and this only showed up in certain games (with multiplat games generally looking better on 360). That just wasn't enough to justify the difference in cost between the 2 platforms. That plus it launched a year later.

There is nothing wrong with having a powerful piece of HW just as long as it doesn't blow out the price and launch date.
 
The problem with the PS3 wasn't taht it was too powerful. The problem was it was only marginally more powerful thatn the 360 and this only showed up in certain games (with multiplat games generally looking better on 360). That just wasn't enough to justify the difference in cost between the 2 platforms. That plus it launched a year later.

There is nothing wrong with having a powerful piece of HW just as long as it doesn't blow out the price and launch date.

doesn't PS3 have a relatively crappy GPU?

Next gen there shouldn't be a problem with cost due to CELL or bluray, they are mature now.

Imagine a PS3 with a GPU comparable to 360's. You'd probably get more noticable differences in games then? Just that Sony focused too much on bluray/CELL I think.
 
The thing is, the difference between Sony and MS' next gen platforms won't be that much considering both of them will be targeting a reasonable price, like say, $400 - $450. There's only so much you can do with that in mind. I think Sony will be pushing 3D hard, which is a given, but considering what they've done with the Vita, it should be easier to develop for and will most probably have a lot of off-the-shelf parts. It's probably easier for Sony to pack in a lot more power at that price point than Microsoft considering they are a hardware company, but like I said, the difference won't be that much. Microsoft can take big loss and go all out, but that's really unlikely since they don't function that way. I'm more interested to see how these companies will innovate when it comes to services, because the hardware will allow them to do a lot of interesting things.

doesn't PS3 have a relatively crappy GPU?

Next gen there shouldn't be a problem with cost due to CELL or bluray, they are mature now.

Imagine a PS3 with a GPU comparable to 360's. You'd probably get more noticable differences in games then? Just that Sony focused too much on bluray/CELL I think.
Yes, the RSX was a poor choice by Sony, but it was mostly a last minute thing. PS3 would have greatly benefited with a stronger GPU, especially when it comes to multiplatform games, but considering it took like $800 to manufacture the 60GB, they would have lost a lot of money if they went with something powerful. You can say that the Blu Ray ruined the balance of the system, but hopefully that shouldn't happen again.
 
Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Whatever Sony do, they need to have a headset and a motion control solution in the box too.

OS wise, you can tell they are making improvements because Vita does a lot of things right.

Power should enable decent software based PS2, PS1 and PSP emulation, hardware could handle PS3 backwards compatibility.
 
PS4 wont have a GPU, the Cell will do it all, not even a sound chip, Cell will do that too.

It wont have a north or south bridge, Cell will do that too.

It wont have games, Cell will do that too

Cell FTW
 
and lets not just use PS3/360 as our yardstick. Previous generations have shown us the only thing we can predict is that nothing is predictable.
Right, but given the more refined and narrower set of goals that seems to define the intentions of the current platform holders, I just don't see a great change in course, thus next-gen seems to be even more predictable than last for direction and focus of software. Granted, it is really too early to have a very concrete view on this yet, but the trends, as evidenced by the last couple generations' most successful software releases, are still pretty clear and follow without much deviation. The weight of these successes seems to be more disproportionate than ever before, but DD and a more flexible, reasonable retail pricing scheme might offset and even alter (or correct) the current focus. There's going to be a greater focus on small developers than ever before simply because there are more of them now able to exist because of their success on small-dev friendly platforms, while current consoles still aim to cater mostly to the few big publishers and developers around...which means bigger budgets and, arguably, lesser games. Whoever manages to successfully leverage the large and growing base of smaller (and mostly former industry-experienced) developers out there for their console platform will probably be the winner, IMO.
 
GPGPUs are designed to speed up/hand off things from expensive, overly generalised x86 CPUs in PCs. CELL SPUs are ideal for gaming, not so good for general computing.

CPUs in PCs are not overly generalized, CPUs in consoles are too restrictive due to pricing and energy requirements. The bulk of game logic is general purpose code. Graphics and physics are different, and nowadays, after the advent of the GPGPU concept, they're both handled by GPUs. Modern GPUs easily outperform Cell in those tasks.

PS3 games can stand toe-to-toe with Xbox 360 games (and in some ways even surpass them) only when things like graphics (partially) and physics - so things that CPUs are not normally meant to handle - are relegated to Cell's SPEs. In general computing Xenon outperforms Cell by some margin. That's one of the reasons why PS3 exclusive games can in some cases look better than their Xbox 360 counterparts, which may (and often does) lead people to conclude that PS3 is significantly more powerful than Xbox 360 - visual things are the most obvious. But when you look under the hood, they can both achieve some impressive things that the other platform simply can not handle as aptly (differences in memory architecture and usage also play a big part here).
 
It's easier to program for the 360, not just cheaper.
Which is exactly my point about the lead SKU. Regardless of which is easier, what matters is which is more popular, because that will in most cases be the version which gets the most attention, and in turn will be better. The games that lead on PS3 are still better than the 360 versions, regardless of it's ease of use for the developer.

When Activision has to decide which console is going to get the focus of CoD next-gen, the only thing that will matter is the size of the audience.
 
I think Sony will be pushing 3D hard . . .
I don't see 3D support as anything but a regular feature for all the next-gen platforms going forward since all will be able to support it far better than the current gen and because it's relatively easy to implement, though it takes effort to do it right, clearly. 3D was only Sony's thing, initially, because they had more reasons to push it thanks to their film and television businesses. 3D will cease to be seen as only or mainly Sony's thing, and instead will be practically everywhere.
 
I hope the console manufacturers get back into the arms race hardcore and push tech forward, trying to dazzle us with more powerful machines and excellent graphics.


They have to make up for a lot of lost goodwill this generation as far as I'm concerned.
 
I hope the console manufacturers get back into the arms race hardcore and push tech forward, trying to dazzle us with more powerful machines and excellent graphics.


They have to make up a lot of lost goodwill as far as I'm concerned.
In what sense? The 360 was amazing when it launched. Only Nintendo backed down techwise.
 
I think Sony will be pushing 3D hard, which is a given
I doubt they will push it harder than they are now. 3D, especially the one where you need a 3D TV and glasses, isn't a strong feature; not only does it require special type of TV, but it's also uncomfortable for many people. It's a nice gimmick to have, but nothing special.
 
In what sense? The 360 was amazing when it launched. Only Nintendo backed down techwise.
Nintendo for backing down before it started, MS and Sony for dragging out this generation out for so long.

I know all their reasons for doing so, I was just speaking as a gamer who's looking at nothing but his own interests.


I planned to make a business perspective post countering my own afterwards, but your quick response prevented that. :p
 
Which is exactly my point about the lead SKU. Regardless of which is easier, what matters is which is more popular, because that will in most cases be the version which gets the most attention, and in turn will be better. The games that lead on PS3 are still better than the 360 versions, regardless of it's ease of use for the developer.

When Activision has to decide which console is going to get the focus of CoD next-gen, the only thing that will matter is the size of the audience.

This brings up an something I was thinking the other day. The first CoD that comes after the next consoles are out, will it be on just the next consoles, or on both this gen and the new ones?

Makes sense to be on both so you still have that huge audience but if there is a new shooter exclusive to the new machines that looks much more impressive visually and feature wise than CoD 1080p edition on the new consoles could it lose some momentum?

I'm talking mostly from a hype/marketing here, CoD aren't among the best looking games this gen but they aren't bad looking either, theres a difference but not as much as there would be stacked up against something made spefically for any new systems.
 
Nintendo for backing down before it started, MS and Sony for dragging out this generation out for so long.

I know all their reasons for doing so, I was just speaking as a gamer who's looking at nothing but his own interests.


I planned to make a business perspective post countering my own afterwards, but your quick response prevented that. :p
I don't know, there's an aspect of diminishing returns, every generation, to try and match the impact of the previous one they'll need to wait longer. This generation will probably be two years longer than the last one, but the next systems won't actually come close to a PS2/PS3 style leap. PC's are already ten fold the consoles, and the leap isn't at all mind blowing. It's the same thing prettier. I'd like to see the first parties hold out even longer really. Especially if every game has to be on the WiiU too, the low end spec requirements could bottleneck the other two and PC gaming for the next ten years.
This brings up an something I was thinking the other day. The first CoD that comes after the next consoles are out, will it be on just the next consoles, or on both this gen and the new ones?

Makes sense to be on both so you still have that huge audience but if there is a new shooter exclusive to the new machines that looks much more impressive visually and feature wise than CoD 1080p edition on the new consoles could it lose some momentum?

I'm talking mostly from a hype/marketing here, CoD aren't among the best looking games this gen but they aren't bad looking either, theres a difference but not as much as there would be stacked up against something made spefically for any new systems.
It'll be on everything I imagine. CoD is the reason Sony needs to launch at the same time as MS this time really. If MS have a year exclusive on next-gen CoD, Sony might as well not bother. People aren't going to wait a year for Sony. They only did this time because of how PS2 crushed Dreamcast I think. Now they're not a powerhouse and third party exclusives are over, the only thing that matters is who has the software you want, which is everyone, and who is cheapest.
 
Those two are one and the same. Easier to program -> less money spent on programming man-hours (and education). But content production takes up the most time and money nowadays, and that's what's really holding games back. A significant advance in that area would result in a revolution.

I dont think that is it.
Easier to program should result in more optimization rounds in the same time span.
If you could knock out 5 rounds on the next xbox compare to 3 rounds on a harder to program next ps. You can close a 10% increase of pure performance the next ps has and of course vice versa. But i think if it is only stronger by less then 15% you wont really see a lot of 3rd parties going for those extra 15% of performance.

But once again there are so much thing to compare and i think a game journalist probably can't do it. Not only Hardware you need to consider but also what stuff can microsoft put into directX to make stuff easier and faster for devs.

I think most programmers agree is that the more iterations you can make over your code you will find a way to optimize it. Just like every artist also should agree on the art side the more iterations you can make over your model you can almost always find ways to cut polygons to a certain limit off course. Or have more time to hand fixed automated lod models.
 
LOL @ psfanboys with uncharted and Killzone.

They are not the best looking console games this generation.

RAGE and Crysis kick their asses.
 
Crysis 2 is pretty good looking, but Rage looks like dog shit, but it does run at 60fps, so it's not all bad, I'm sure Doom 4 will look good.
 
I will get both so don´t really care. I do hope that atleast Sony lets you play online for free.
It would really suck if I have to pay two fees every month. Not much money but still.
 
I know it doesn't have any business sense to make a monster machine but I'd like to see one platform holder go that route. Cram that console full of the best GPU/CPU/RAM stuff you can get for ~600 dollar production cost and price it at 500 bucks. I'd buy it. I know most people wouldn't but dammit, that would be sweet.

Have there been many consoles that have gone this way? Xbox 1 was pretty beastly. I never owned it but I saw Chaos Theory in motion and it blew me away. It was so much ahead of any PS2 game at that time.
 
I dont think that is it.
Easier to program should result in more optimization rounds in the same time span.
If you could knock out 5 rounds on the next xbox compare to 3 rounds on a harder to program next ps. You can close a 10% increase of pure performance the next ps has and of course vice versa. But i think if it is only stronger by less then 15% you wont really see a lot of 3rd parties going for those extra 15% of performance.

That can also be a factor, of course, it all depends on how the development process is structured. Some optimize for each milestone, some only at the end and so on.
 
I know all their reasons for doing so, I was just speaking as a gamer who's looking at nothing but his own interests.

Speaking as a gamer who's looking at nothing but my own interests, I want generations to last even longer so that we could get the most out of existing systems and get more interesting gameplay concepts, as opposed to impressive, but ultimately shallow visual showcases. To have games that are cheaper to produce, which means they can turn profit with less sales, which means developers can take more risks, which means more interesting games for everyone.
 
CELL SPUs are ideal for gaming, not so good for general computing.
Cell was designed as a media streamer, not a gaming CPU. Cell isn't very good at general purpose code, and
Yes, a GPU can do the same things, but if you're talking transistors, wouldn't you rather have your GPU spending its transistors on drawing stuff and let the CPU handle physics/AI etc? If the GPU takes that on, then inevitably it has less capacity for graphics.
The SPUs' redundant power is mostly used for graphics operations to compensate for the somewhat weak RSX. For example, Uncharted uses the SPUs as additional graphics processors for effects and AA. That doesn't make much sense at all - in hindsight I think Sony would've rather cut down on the CPU and get a more powerful GPU in there. A GPU could have probably done the same with much less silicon - at least, that should be the case with the state of technology today.
and if some of the discussions are right and we'll get maybe an ATI 6xx equivalent - not bleeding edge GPU - then I'd like a nicely complementary CPU able to take some of the load and give me better games, rather than forcing everything onto the GPU.
Wait what - after the Wii U discussions people think the PS4 will have an old GPU as well? Come on, what company goes out for a contract for 50+ million console GPUs to be served some dusted off off-the-shelf chip? All three next-gen consoles will have a very customized chip that is distantly related to but unlike any standard PC component, all based on the latest tech AMD can give them. Probably all will use GCN (except Wii U maybe) and have modern tesselators.
Not to mention Sony has already shouldered the costs of CELL, it should be a lot cheaper/simpler to use that again in some way. And toolchains will be more intact from PS3 if they keep the same CPU, and BC will be easier.
A 28 nm Cell could definitely be useful as an additional processor and for backwards compatibility. Its main CPU will be something related to the Wii U CPU or an AMD processor however.
In fact, I'm not really sure why people shit on CELL other than because it seems the thing to do.
Cell was a huge R&D investment for a huge chip that hasn't delivered on its promises. It is inefficient at least for gaming purposes, and it has hurt Sony tremendously. It has its merits, sure, but all in all it wasn't the right choice then and it definitely isn't the right choice for the PS4 (as its main processor).
 
I have a feeling that the context in which the next consoles will make or brake, is not the games or the gfx but the social integration and the general media capabilities.
What we should expect in next gen from Sony and MS is nettops with cool cases that also play games. More so than this gen.

I just hope that Sony pulls it right this time, because the PS3 had so much potential non-gaming-wise, it was heartbreaking to see it fail in that area (albeit alone, cause the other 2 companies didn't even bother)
 

I think it looks terrible. I'm not sure what's hard to understand about that. Very sterile lighting, low poly environments, dreadful textures. Horrible. But by all means, write off my opinion as fanboy nonsense and you never have to think about it ever again.
 
I'm honestly surprised that this thread is so large considering that there's so little information behind it.

Yep. Especially since given Sony's track record, it will be a super complicated architecture with horrific dev tools. Microsoft could make a machine 20% less powerful, and the games would still be on par.
 
LOL @ psfanboys with uncharted and Killzone.

They are not the best looking console games this generation.

RAGE and Crysis kick their asses.

Your post history does nothing to help you. And calling out the fanboys, that's a good one there. Play that card!
 
Yep. Especially since given Sony's track record, it will be a super complicated architecture with horrific dev tools.

Their immediate track record suggests otherwise.

We had to deal with this FUD pre-Vita, but not again, thank-you-very-much.
 
Texture patch for Rage is incoming btw, improvements for it are included in the latest Catalyst preview.
 
doesn't PS3 have a relatively crappy GPU?

Next gen there shouldn't be a problem with cost due to CELL or bluray, they are mature now.

Imagine a PS3 with a GPU comparable to 360's. You'd probably get more noticable differences in games then? Just that Sony focused too much on bluray/CELL I think.

Nintendo, Sony and MS need to focus one three things ONLY when developing a new console: GPU, CPU and RAM. Sony only cared about one of those for the PS3, the CPU.


Well, yes they are. But you forgot God of War III.

Quite possibly still the best looking console game.....but GOW IV will top it :D
 
It looks disappointing on PC and that's well.....PC.
That's almost expected though, because it was compromised visually to run at 60 on the consoles, so on PC where everything is 60, the difference is more pronounced. The performance doesn't make up for any of the visual shortcomings basically.
Quite possibly still the best looking console game.....but GOW IV will top it :D
No doubt, but until I hear Stig is not heading it, nothing is that pretty...
 
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