Projectjustice
Banned
Just going with whats out there at the moment. When the next rumor comes out and MS is using a 7980 Ill use that.
I didnt know that, thanks for the info!
PSM: PS4 specs more powerful than Xbox 720
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Just going with whats out there at the moment. When the next rumor comes out and MS is using a 7980 Ill use that.
I didnt know that, thanks for the info!
brain_stew
Member
When you classify adding a whole new memory controller, memory bus and 4+ memory chips to a console PCB as a "couple extra pieces of plastic" its time to stop proposing silly ideas.
piSquaredOver6
Banned
fixd
never said that. either way its a cheaper idea than 8 gigs of xdr other people want.
brain_stew
Member
Who the hell suggested 8GB of XDR?
Board complexity and size constraints don't just vanish over time.
OK, just for curiosity's sake, if nothing else. Please tell me the precise memory setup you propose, including bus widths, proposed interconnects and the precise number and density of the RAM chips you want to use. Then tell me how that setup is going to one day produce a $100-$150 console after die shrinks, and the RAM chips and densities you'd be using at that point. So many forget that the cost in the here and now is only a minor part of the equation. You need to propose a solution that will reduce in cost quickly as well and explain how adding another memory bus is going to help towards that goal.
Those restraints mean that at an absolute maximum you've got a 256bit bus to "spread out" across these three memory pools. You're never going to be able to get a console down to the ~$100 range if you need to produce a board with more than 8 RAM chips and a wider memory bus and all the complexity that goes with that.
But newegg can sell me 16GB for $15.
herzogzwei1989
Banned
I'm expecting a midrange Kepler GPU with 2 GB XDR2/3 for the CPU plus 2 GC GDDR 5 for the GPU.
pretty sure 460-560-660 will be the same besides Watt reduction usage
same amount of Cuda Cores
THE:MILKMAN
Member
You know what would be awesome? If the PS4 was actually my gaming PC and I could open it up and slot more memory in there! Yeah!
Running Windows 8, of course *rips hair out like brain_stew*
It is more likely that the PS4 will have AMD chips in it.
piSquaredOver6
Banned
read the thread lol one guy said 16 gigs xdr2.
why cant we have 4 4 gigabit xdr2 chips and 4 2 gigabit gddr5 chips? 256 bit. is 3 gigs of ram seriously too much? the ram jump from console to console is usually 8-16x. is moores law slowing down or something?
brain_stew
Member
4Gb XDR2 chips aren't produced yet. How can you guarantee sufficient supply for launch? How can you get costs to the level you want with only one potential memory supplier?
When the GPU is the one major component where performance is most dependant on bandwidth, is a 128 bit bus really sufficient? Is ~3x the bandwidth of RSX really sufficient when you're targetting 1080p and RSX was already severely bandwidth starved?
Where does the DDR3 pool fit in?
How do you propose developers deal with this complexity?
Is it cost efficient to create high bandwidth interconnects between components and memory pools?
piSquaredOver6
Banned
i scrapped the ddr3 bc youre mean. and i never said 128 bit. i said 256 bit data width. and sony is releasing later than everyone else. on the right side of the density jump. they could use 4 gigabit chips.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Soon i am going to used Find if i see newegg in the post just bypass it .
I don't see how hard it is for people to remember consoles don't used same type of ram along few other things.
Then this, sir, is your console of choice:
And its cooling system:
cliffyb agrees with me!
brain_stew
Member
You can't have a 256 bit GDDR5 bus with only 4 RAM chips.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Then this, sir, is your console of choice:
And its cooling system:
No need for all of that we can just fake it .
If devs 95% close most people won't be able to tell either way .
Please note not say that saying next gen we going to get avatar like graphics we long way from that .
I would be happy if could get better hair, clothes ,shadows just to name few things for next gen .
piSquaredOver6
Banned
then whats with all these people complaining about too many chips? theres going to be 8 chips in these consoles anyway or theres not gunna be enough bandwidth...
brain_stew
Member
If you have separate RAM pools then that's 12 chips if you want a 256 bit bus for the GPU.
piSquaredOver6
Banned
how bad is that to have 12 chips? how much does each cost etc. how manu chips did the ps3 have
vandaliser
Banned
by 16 i mean 16 split down the middle. One for main memory and the other for graphics part.
If there is one hardware company which can fit things into a motherboard it's sony. c'mon sony get rambus and IBM together for a little talk
brain_stew
Member
8 and they still haven't managed to get it sub $200. The 360 started with 8 and is down to 4 now. The cost of the chips is only a small part of it, its the board complexity and the minimum size of the CPU/GPU after die shrinks that is the big issue.
Do you think Sony are going to release a console with higher costs than the PS4? Do you think they're going to release a console that can't be aggressively cost reduced?
brain_stew
Member
piSquaredOver6
Banned
well idk about in todays economy but they typically sell consoles at a loss at first.. remember the ps3 costed like 800 bucks to make or something at launch. and this time around sony doesnt have to worry aboutexpensive blu ray drive
Melchiah
Member
It depends... if we don't get i.e. another WipEout in quite a while, I'd like to be able to play the old one on the new system. Like I played the old Silent Hills on PS3, when there was no real horror games available. And I'd like all the PSN content I've bought to work on the new system as well.
EDIT:
I just remembered, that PS3 and 360 have a 128-bit bus, and I wondered how much benefits 256-bit bus would offer? I guess it's unlikely the new consoles would use a 512-bit bus?
Brad Grenz
Member
It's as far away today as it was in 1998.
phosphor112
Banned
Of course they are still prototypes so they will be expensive, but the drives expected initial costs are around 15,000 dollars with each disc costing over a 120. Of course more get produced, prices drop, etc... but still not anytime soon.
brain_stew
Member
The problem with a console is the more silicon you spend on a CPU, the less you can spend on the GPU. Highly parallel tasks are going to work better on a GPU, so why not leave the CPU to focus on tasks that aren't easily threaded as well as feeding the GPU?
Its the direction I believe Sony will take.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Isn´t the VITA an indication on how Sony will make the PS4 next gen?
It's been said quite a few times before that devs are creating assets and having to scale them down to this consoles so their won't be this big increase in dev time/cost compared to this generation, I've never quite understood this, what exactly I people talking about? anyone?
jeff_rigby
Banned
Recent articles are pointing to 4K blu-ray being released in 2013 after HEVC (h.265) is Published. It's speculated that a quad layer disk and h.265 would work with a current blu-ray drive but a player would need a more powerful CPU and more video buffer memory to support 4K Blu-ray. The PS3 slim might be able to support 4k blu-ray.
But what about UHD resolutions above 4K like 8K that are coming in 10 years. Holographic drives are here now using a new GE plastic and it can use a slightly modified blu-ray drive. Two years ago it was speculated that a PS4 would have a Blu-ray drive able to use the GE plastic disks. Problem is the equipment Sony has to manufacture Blu-ray disks would have to be replaced if supporting a format using the GE plastic. The PS4 drive may (sleeper) support the GE plastic for holigraphic storage to support 8K but for the next 10 years or so 4K blu-ray will most likely be quad layer blu-ray using a h.265 codec.
phosphor112 is correct in that without the GE plastic that has a higher reflective index, much more powerful lasers are needed and to record two lasers are used. This and no economy of scale has costs that are very high.
brain_stew
Member
I'd say it is, yeah. A developer focused machine with mostly off the shelf components that delivers fantastic results from day one while allowing Sony to break even within the first year of launch while selling at a mass market friendly price. What more would you want from a console?
brain_stew, I realise Cell isn't "off the shelf" but could it fit into the equation? I mean of course it could work but would mature dev tools and familiarity be enough to promote it above, say, another PowerPC CPU?
Or will Cell, if it does indeed evolve, be very different from the iteration in the PS3? I'm thinking substantive changes to the SPUs etc.
Difficult questions to answer I guess; seeing as for a layman like me they're difficult to ask!
I think we can be sure that the PS4 will be the strongest of the three next-gen systems.
brain_stew
Member
The only "off the shelf" Cell is the one in the PS3. Any CPU that would be useful for a next generation console would require a complete redesign and all the significant investment that goes along with that. The quicker Sony write off Cell as a failed experiment, the better. Spend those transistors on the GPU so that all developers can get fantastic results without a significant time investment and more development time can be spent on things that matter.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
I think it would great, especially the developer friendly, and flexibility in price. But how big of a leap can the PS4 have over this gen with these parts?
brain_stew
Member
Very significant, actually. It won't be a patch on a contemporary high end PC rig (or even a high end PC rig of today) but it can be a true generational leap.
Something like:
4 wide CPU cores with OoOE and decent SIMD capabilities (either AMD x86 or Power7 based).
UMA with 2GB GDDR5 on a 256 bit bus (4GB if 4Gb chips are available in time).
~2 Teraflop AMD GCN based GPU (I guess a Keplar based alternative would do but I'm not seeing it).
Released in Q4 2013 for $400.
I was thinking the Xbox3 would be practically identical until all the recent SOC and 6670 rumours starting sprouting up but I'm not so sure anymore. Its safe to say this would blow the current rumoured 360 (and Wii U for that matter) out of the water.
They already did fake a lot when they did avatar, they also computed a lot of the graphics with GPUs to make the process faster. (Pantaray used GPUs for calculating spherical harmonics/GI.)
For next generation I wouldn't mind a 2 or 3 way asymmetric processing.. (Fast CPU OoO core/s for single thread performance, Slower CPU within GPU for housekeeping and butload of APUs for raw power.)
This with buttload of memory for an ability to do more interesting games..
In current generation we pretty much already do multimillion polygon models with Zbrush/mudbox and a 'low polygon' model to transfer the properties into. (normalmap, color, specular etc.)
In next generation the process will change a little, but more on in terms of what properties will be transferred.. (add either z or vector displacement more information about surface/subsurface and so on.)
There will be need for more refined work, but a lot of the work is already done for current generation of assets even though information is lost in the process.
vandaliser
Banned
off the shelf parts? I hope you guys never ever get the chance to design the ps4. Sony has always been terrible at software. they always distinguished themselves by their hardware philosophies and yet you guys want them to design another run of the mill hardware specs like the 720 and the wii u.
vandaliser
Banned
who said anything about GDDR5? Get that last gen retarded ram away from the ps4. XDR it is for both main memory and graphics.
High speed bandwidth is the way to go. And if there is one company than can design motherboards it's sony.
What could Sony do if they took a small loss in terms of GPU (Kepler or AMD)?
piSquaredOver6
Banned
Using a field programmable gate array for this:
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/~wenzel/bidir.pdf
Yields promising results.
What if billions of transistors were put into a hardware bidirectional path tracer? We could have avatar graphics like right now with current technology if someone would invest some money into researching this. Whose with me?!
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/~wenzel/bidir.pdf
Yields promising results.
What if billions of transistors were put into a hardware bidirectional path tracer? We could have avatar graphics like right now with current technology if someone would invest some money into researching this. Whose with me?!
brain_stew
Member
Its not about taking a loss, really. Its about designing a machine to strict size and power restraints. If you want to fit a better GPU in there then you're going to have to either dramatically increase the size of the system or use super expensive cooling, neither of which is desirable.
Then you enter more problems like, if you've got a faster GPU then you need to increase bandwidth alongside that but using anything more than a 256 bit bus is going to mess with cost reductions later on. So you look at the alternative like eDRAM, but with MRTs prevalent and a 1080p target resolution, 64MB is really the absolute minimum you can get away with and that becomes cost prohibitive.
Honestly, given a 2013 launch and a 28nm process, a 2 teraflop/2 billion transistor GPU is the peak of what is reasonably possible imo. Step past that point and the costs/heat/power/size of the system can start to spiral out of control.
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