BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Yeah as much as I love BC in my consoles, I think the advent of "HD Collections" and XBLA/PSN re-releases killed it.
Still. I will cross my fingers for some BC.
PSM: PS4 specs more powerful than Xbox 720
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Yeah as much as I love BC in my consoles, I think the advent of "HD Collections" and XBLA/PSN re-releases killed it.
Still. I will cross my fingers for some BC.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
You pulling out very abstract opinionated definitions of "power".
Xbox could do normal mapping
Xbox could do 720p
What xbox didn't have that the 360 does is a updated gpu that could do more tricks and a tri core cpu and more ram to run those, but all that does not equal 6x more computational power.
More like 2 x at the most.
Xbox could do normal mapping
Xbox could do 720p
What xbox didn't have that the 360 does is a updated gpu that could do more tricks and a tri core cpu and more ram to run those, but all that does not equal 6x more computational power.
More like 2 x at the most.
The second one sounds way more doable under 200W than the former, SoC or not. Also I think the 7750/7770 are the cards to look at for rounded measures of what nextBox will be capable of. RAM amount is good until the higher density memory chips go into production.
Because BC is very important when you launch a system with a library of 10-20 games.
bgassassin
Member
In March a poster said that his company had been hired to make a chip for a console. A few posts later it was discovered he worked for AMD. In May another rumor article came out about the three consoles and only Sony was linked to looking at an AMD cpu.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Not for the majority of consumers. Sony will not spend extra money on the cell to keep hardcore gaming base happy. It´s all about cost and profit.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
Divided is actually the better way to go.
The problem with the ps3 is it wasn't enough for its hardware set up. even if it was not split it still would not have been enough.
Oppo
Member
I think you'll actually see the opposite, with MS going for divided this time.
H_Prestige
Banned
Again, where is the profit in sinking an entire DD platform and having to start from scratch? Where's the money in not being able to sell tons of stuff to PS4 owners right from day one? You can bet Apple and MS will never throw out their app stores with each new hardware; new content is built over old content, and everything is backward compatible. It's industry standard and Sony wouldn't profit from deviating from that.
All I see in this thread is tech heads arguing over what the best and most efficient specs would be, as if that's the most important piece of the puzzle. When in fact that's the type of stuff the majority of consumers don't care about. Average Joe doesn't know whether their console is using an AMD or IBM CPU, what clock rate is, how much AA one console can put out compared to another, etc. What matters is how much the device can do and how much it costs.
bgassassin
Member
I expect all three to have unified memory.
This is very probably. Low heat production and efficient manufacturing might be important key points for this upcoming gen.
256 MB system ram? Of course you wrote it wrong. You meant 2Gigabyte System Ram, right?
From what I understand, system RAM is generally at par or above the VRAM. Vita has 512MB system ram and 128MB VRAM.
Besides latency is there any other reason why unified isn't the best option if more ram is available overall?
bgassassin
Member
I think he was making a hypothetical.
I never heard of system that has 10x more video ram than system ram. Ever. Not even hypothetical.
Angelus Errare
Banned
All of this is nice, but if next generation doesn't get some decent IQ I'm not even going to bother.
GPU and CPU sharing bandwidth (This is where eDRAM comes into play).
GPU and CPU sharing bandwidth (This is where eDRAM comes into play).
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
On PC where you don't have to adhere to strict RAM limitations, sure, but in a closed system it's not so simple. There are good and bad sides to both approaches, but I'm sure many developers would choose greater flexibility over slight performance gains in some cases.
phosphor112
Banned
It was a screw up in terms of coding, not hardware. If it didn't exist, I'm 100% sure the PS3 would still be secure.
Also, the costs of creating new API's, new kits, investing in retooling everything and reteaching EVERY ONE OF THEIR DEV STUDIOS would far outweigh the costs of scaling up a Cell.
I think this is the reason why we would see just 2 to 4 x cell (it is scalable, right?) and beef up ram and GPU. there, you now have a new system that can use all your previous APIs and dev tools.
Proelite
Member
7800s will not be over 150W TPD?
Considering laptop GPUs have managed to lower TPD by 30% without sacrificing power, I think console GPUS can do even better.
100W console GPU definitely can match 7850/7870.
No it was not. They designed the security system wrong. Then implemented the wrong design correctly. Please understand how this engineering process works. It was not in the hardware, but it was part of the most integral piece of code on the system - the piece that runs the system.
To be fair it was a seemingly minor oversight, but with grave consequences. Indeed, safety would have been mathematically guaranteed if they hadn't done this.
To address your other points: if that is so much of a problem then why doesn't the Vita use the PSP's hardware? Why doesn't the PS3 use a souped up MIPS chip like the PS2?
Death Dealer
Member
So two Xboxes working together could handle an X360 game like Gears 3 or Forza 4 ?
I don't think so. Xenos is far more powerful than two NV2a. Even with perfect efficiency, I doubt four of them could do it.
jeff_rigby
Banned
phosphor112 is correct, they chose a fixed random number for a key rather than an algorithm based on a curve.
charlequin
Banned
I don't know why people think this is sustainable. HD collections this generation are trading on about four distinct UI/UX improvements between last gen and this one (SD -> HD resolutions, wired -> wireless controllers, memcards -> internal storage, nothing -> trophies/achievements) to deliver existing games in a significantly "improved" package. (And even so these things aren't actually selling so well that they're worthwhile for anything but already-huge market-proven franchises.) There aren't going to be any such improvements this next time around -- resolutions will be staying more or less the same, there's no pending upgrade in controller quality, etc. That removes all the incentive to rebuy stuff.
(You can look back at the music industry for context on this one. Vinyl/cassette -> CD was a huge transition for the industry because they were able to resell basically all of their content due to the huge convenience and quality upgrade that CD represented, but they were never able to repeat that feat.)
Now, it's certainly true that retail BC hasn't historically been a huge deal for people, but the more accustomed people become to the iOS/Android model for DD software where everything is seamlessly BC forever the more I imagine people will demand continuity on their DD software platforms going forward.
HAL_Laboratory
Member
If that is indeed the case then Sony hasn't learned shit from this generation.
That's a design error. They designed their algorithm wrong. Will you guys let this go? At least until you know how to properly implement elliptic curve cryptography (like I do).
If Sony only needs to run their OS from system memory, they only need 256MB. The game would use the larger pool completely. Hypothetical scenario of course.
somuchwater
Member
Could anyone answer a simple question from a non-techie? How much would a Cell in its current form (if made using a smaller... Uh, manufacturing process? ie 22NM) add to the cost of a PS4? I ask because I'm wondering if it only adds $15 or $20 to the cost, it may be worth it? Or not. As I said I'm just looking for an answer from someone in know.
Shin Johnpv
Member
Sony isn't going Nvidia next gen. So I see no reason why they can't do a full AMD system. Like it's been said we've had a poster here who works for AMD say they were working on a CPU for a next gen system. Wii-U is confirmed to be an IBM cpu, and none of the rumors have pointed to MS using an AMD cpu, but we have had rumors of Sony going that route.
We'll see in the coming months what happens. Though I would say the chances of an AMD cpu being in the PS4 are way way way higher than a Cell cpu being in the PS4.
So after nearly 6 years you still haven't learnt what SONY's (PS3's) main problem was?
The idea of HDer Collections is an interesting one. Sony (or anyone else in fact) didn't push for HD ports of last gen games, they could have done it from day one, they didn't till a marketing company researched bonus items for a GoW3 SE. It's the audience who wanted HD collections, the publishers don't seem to care all that much despite the 'money for old rope' ease of them.
I think it will happen next gen, if for nothing other than to package up the games to single discs etc. But it's going to be more work, and for less reward, I don't see it being a trend at all, except with possibly Nintendo. Pulling GC support from the Wii remodel and the WiiU put them in a position of doing some HD ports next time around, but even with that, it'd be a pretty limited thing I imagine.
I think it will happen next gen, if for nothing other than to package up the games to single discs etc. But it's going to be more work, and for less reward, I don't see it being a trend at all, except with possibly Nintendo. Pulling GC support from the Wii remodel and the WiiU put them in a position of doing some HD ports next time around, but even with that, it'd be a pretty limited thing I imagine.
The middle way.
But maybe i am wrong, but haven't gpus evolved more that cpus since Ps3 and 360 hit the market? That would make more relevant the gpu jump compared to the cpu one. And that could be a scenario were cell could still be relevant.
charlequin
Banned
Nintendo will just be doing the equivalent of this generation's HD collections next generation.
Wait, so forgive me for asking this, but aren't AI script, voice, music, hit detect, calculation, etc that has nothing to do with graphic are stored in system RAM? If that's the case then don't we need beefer Ram than just to run OS?
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Since a lot of games this gen are sub HD, these games can be upgraded to HD with added resolution and stable frame rate. It´s not only about certain games. They can always repackage games for instance GOW or Sly collection. If pubs improve the graphics, fps, resolution etc.. and put 2-3 for 40$ it is still cheaper for pubs than making new games. Besides we have seen that collections like GOW collection have been very successful. So big IP would sell well. Take for instance AC games. If Ubisoft improved the games repackaged AC1,2 and brotherhood for 60$, there would be market for it. Manufacturers and publishers would see a lot of income from these redone games. Why would Sony include the cell, which would be very stupid, just to please few gamers, while Sony and many pubs would benefit greatly from these collections. It´s shitty for us consumers but these companies would want to profit as much as possible.
badcrumble
Member
I have yet to see any good argument against including BC in the PS4.
H_Prestige
Banned
Yeah, all I see is people repeating "Cell is dead man, IBM ain't doing no more research on that!", which I don't understand the significance of. It's just a console processor, who gives a crap. Devs can write software for a "conventional" AMD cpu, they can also write games for a Cell type cpu. Only one of those requires throwing away millions of dollars in investment and revenue down the drain. But PS4 is going to cost billions in R/D either way so what exactly are they saving by going with something completely different?
charlequin
Banned
But that's the whole point. The types of upgrades we saw in this gen's HD collections will not be possible next generation. People who bought GOW Collection because SD games looked like ass on their newer TV are not going to buy GOW3+4 Collection to get an incremental resolution and framerate bump.
Improved how? By spending actual money on new assets and alterations to the code?
It's not like HD collections are printing money right now; they're a low investment with a good ROI percentage but still a pretty low overall return. When the products become less desirable because there are no innate benefits to upporting and the costs of producing them become greater (because you're having to actually spend real time implementing arbitrary new features) the business case for these products goes out the window.
Yeah, but you need a CPU strong enough to "support" the GPU. Therefore, the middle way. You don't need an overpowered CPU, nor do I mean 50/50. The balance is the key.
CadetMahoney
Member
fixed.
bgassassin
Member
From a gamer's perspective I doubt you will. But just because there isn't one doesn't mean PS4 will have BC.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
i hope they include full BC for everything but the main argument against it is that old games being "remastered" and "resold" to us again is the argument for not including BC.
i would hope they are able to emulate PS2 by now on whatever hardware PS4 will be on, and hopefully PS3 will be able to be run on PS4 as well.
at the very least they should have a "deluxe" version with all the BC in it for like 700 dollars. I'd buy it.
vandaliser
Banned
It's funny how people railed against sony for going against BC this gen and yet now they are saying who cares. Sony damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Having a playstation system that can play all three games from previous generations simply opens alot of consumers with that huge library.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
You guys may have a point with HD re-releases. Playing a 360 game on the 720 wont net the same huge difference of playing an xbox game on the 360...
I would love them to just have it BC with 360 games much like they did before.
Upscale the resolution and ad in some AA. I remember at the launch of the 360 I loved playing (And still love to) Halo 2, and have it be played at 720p with AA. The cleaned up image was great.
Same with Splinter Cell Chaos Theory. The game could have passed for a launch title easily when played BC.
I would love to be able to play 360/PS3 games BC if they could up the resolution to 1080p and add in some AA and maybe AF to the old games. (BC 3D would be awesome but likley a pipe dream).
However, that approach would only work for games they specifically patched, which requires work, which means it probably wont happen.
I would love them to just have it BC with 360 games much like they did before.
Upscale the resolution and ad in some AA. I remember at the launch of the 360 I loved playing (And still love to) Halo 2, and have it be played at 720p with AA. The cleaned up image was great.
Same with Splinter Cell Chaos Theory. The game could have passed for a launch title easily when played BC.
I would love to be able to play 360/PS3 games BC if they could up the resolution to 1080p and add in some AA and maybe AF to the old games. (BC 3D would be awesome but likley a pipe dream).
However, that approach would only work for games they specifically patched, which requires work, which means it probably wont happen.
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