PSM: PS4 specs more powerful than Xbox 720
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bgassassin
Member
If you say so.
The dev kit has a DX10 GPU. The question will be if the final has a GPU capable of handling an OpenGL equivalent to DX11.
Also I don't think Shifty said that came from contacts from what I remember, unless I'm thinking of a different thread.
The analogy I've used is Xbox3/PS4 = high-end PC, Wii U = mid-range PC. The two main factors that will determine how big the gap is IMO are Wii U's final GPU and the amount of memory Sony/MS end up with.
RyanReedyMusic
Banned
DX10 GPU just doesnt make sense. We are on DX11 and probably on the verge of 12. Anything less than 11 would be IMO just not practical.
GTP_Daverytimes
Member
Why not, are they not worthy to sell Nintendo number's?
Auto_aim1
MeisaMcCaffrey
That's not really true. Plenty of studios have pushed the bar this gen, and plenty of them will do that next gen as well. I guess for the first two years we will be seeing the same things we saw this gen, but once everybody starts figuring out the new hardware, we should see some new innovative IPs. Developers have to think out of the box nowadays to stand out, and that will usually encourage some good competition. Also, new hardware always unlocks new gameplay possibilities, and like you said, better interaction with the environment, better AI, etc. should really freshen up every genre out there. I'm really optimistic about this, though.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Next gen PS4 games will blow away the games I play on my PC rig right now. (Which include BF3 Maxed, Witcher 2, Crysis 1-2 etc.
A closed platform has many benefits.
Next gen will be like every generation before it. Graphics and scale will be a huge leap over 360 games.
8 years ago I had a 9700TX and was running this amazed at the graphics of this tech demo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92bIPSh6r6Y
Just one year later we had hardware(Xbox 360) that could run this, in game, 60fps with 120 fps physics etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BTo-Wzdong
8 years ago I was also amazed at the likes of Half-Life 2 and Far Cry. (Made me want to upgrade to an X800 XT PE, KATTTEEEEE!!!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3heDPiWFfuA
Then a mere 3 years later in 2007, we had this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG1ZUSCrgqM&hd=1
Or for example, first screenshots of Battlefield 2 in 2005.
First Screens of Battlefield 3 in 2011.
I think people forget how fast tech can evolve when everything we play is not running on old consoles... and even so, it evolves pretty damn quick.
and hardware today is several times more powerful.
In 2013-2014 we will have games with graphics that absolutely blow away this generations best(Uncharted 3, Gears 3, Killzone 3, Battlefield 3 etc).
This gen has lasted longer than any other, and tech has not slowed down. It has had more time to progress. If the 720 and PS4 release with the same amount of focus on power as the 360 and PS3 did, then we will see consoles that are MANY times more powerful than what we have now.
Some people are saying that BF3 and the Witcher 2 are as good as it is going to get next gen. Those people are sorely mistaken. Us PC users have raw power, but PC devs have to account for every conceivable configuration.
Imagine if Naughty Dog made a game specifically for my PC.
Q6600@3.2
6950 2GB
4GB Ram.
Not an amazing PC, but it holds its own.
A game made from the ground up for that PC would make BF3 look like crap.
This is why although my PC version of BF3 looks worlds better than my 360 version, it does not look like a 10+ X better hardware difference.
There are many tiers of high end. I like to think that my PC is high-end, but is considerably slower than an slied 590 + 5GHz OC liquid cooled i7. Will the Ps4 surpass my current rig? I doubt it if its coming in 2013. No way in hell it will be catch the later.
Theonik
Member
This is basically specs supposedly given to PSM by devs that currently have kits supposedly. This is really something to be taken with a grain of salt because even if the specs were true, you could be looking at a very wrong interpretation of them. Kinda like some people would be saying that the PS3 has a better GPU than 360 "because it has more Mhz" which is of course flatout false.
REMEMBER CITADEL
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BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
That's the thing though.
PS4/720 don't have to be as powerful as a 590 and an I7 to blow away any PC game on the market right now.
The best thing(of many) about PC's is how upgradable they are. If I am not happy with performance I can upgrade, and get what I want.
The down side is because there are so many configurations out there, no dev on the planet is going to utilize your GPU is a very efficient way.
Which is why we see high end games on PC such as the Witcher 2, Crysis 1-2, Battlefield 3, etc running on consoles. Sure they look a lot worse.
But does Crysis 2 or BF3 PC version look like it is running on 10-20x more powerful hardware than the 360 versions?
As an owner of them both, I can say no. It looks a lot better, but no where near as good as it COULD look.
If the Xbox 720 has a DX11 GPU like a 6950, a quad or six core processor, and 4GB of ram. (Which is basically the mid range PC I have now), then the games on it will make BF3 and the Witcher 2 look bad. Even though those same games push a PC of the same specs.
Then in 2014 and 2015, when PC's gained more raw power once again, we will be playing 720 and PS4 games at higher framerates with more detail etc.
This gen wont be much different than all the rest.
The main difference is instead of 4-5 years of hardware advancement between consoles, there will be an 8-9 year period of hardware advancement.
Which common sense would tell you, will equal a huge leap in graphical fidelity.
We are not on the verge of DX12, trust me. As for DX11, it really doesn't matter for Nintendo, or even Sony for that matter. They won't be using DirectX as the API for their consoles.
Nintendo will be using OpenGL instead, so hopefully they have plenty to offer in that environment. Microsoft will be the only one to utilize DirectX10/11 in their next console.
Let me remind some of you that OpenGL has had DirectX11 feature for quite some time now (tessellation has been available for a while--DX11 just made it more accessible).
JimmyRustler
Member
Costs go up yes, but at the same time the market is growing as more and more people are playing videogames.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Why should cost of development go up drastically?
At the start of this gen, costs when up because developers had to learn new hardwrae and artists had to learn how to effeciently create high fidelity assests. (For instance why in Gears 1, "The Stranded" characters were outsourced and were much worse looking than main characters.
However now a days this is not the case. High resolution High Fidelity models are already being created and then scaled down to run on current hardware.
Look at the high fidelity models from Gears 3.
They already create it, and then dumb it down for current gen.
Not to mention much of the cost of these games comes from over blown marketing campaigns. Look no further than 150 million dollar ad campaign for Battlefield 3.
That is more than 1/3 the cost of the production of Avatar in marketing alone!
That can be rained in by quite a bit.
The Samaritan demo, which has a ton of high quality assets was done in the span of 2 months by a handful of people.
The only reason that they currently are is due to the system being cheaper and therefore more "casuals" will find the system attractive. That and also since this gen is about to end. They are just trying to gain more people.
They are setting up the 360 so that it will continue to sell when the new xbox is out.
CadetMahoney
Member
Sony can't afford to go balls out and sell at a loss on the level of the PS3. It's not like they're going into next gen from 1st place either and none of their exclusives are system sellers either except for MGS4 in 2007. I'd be surprised if MS goes cheap when they know Sony has no option.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
To turn the question around, why are they more worthy to sell more than like Mass Effect? It's not "could of, should of" but what actually is.
I would think people would understand by now that PC hardware can do more than its doing. PC isn't a closed system though so you develop for the spec minimum(DX11/OGL4) so that your game can run. One of the PC's main strengths also hinders it in a way.
I would love to see what pc game has this type of quality. These aren't 100000+ poly models, but I doubt you could instance a bunch of these on current pc hardware and have it running at 20+ fps.
I think part of the high cost of the PS3 was the Blu-Ray player right? We've seen a good jump in graphics every generation and there is no reason why this one should be any different especially considering the amount of time between the PS3 and PS4 which will likely release in 2013. Of course the big variable is the cost of the extra gimmicks. Something like haptic feedback would be very expensive.
Because that strategy worked gloriously for them last time. Sony will never learn. If they made a system more powerful than what Microsoft will launch, MS is going to laugh to the bank. And so will Nintendo.
Its not about power. Its about content delivery, integration, and input. Most people, beyond the super nerds of GAF, are not going to give a flying fuck about graphics. We have finally gotten to the point of diminishing returns. Will there be improvements? Absolutely! Will it matter? No.
This IS PSM though, I doubt there is any truth to it at all. I just don't see Sony approaching the market blindly like that.
Its not about power. Its about content delivery, integration, and input. Most people, beyond the super nerds of GAF, are not going to give a flying fuck about graphics. We have finally gotten to the point of diminishing returns. Will there be improvements? Absolutely! Will it matter? No.
This IS PSM though, I doubt there is any truth to it at all. I just don't see Sony approaching the market blindly like that.
Look at the high fidelity models from Gears 3.
Can someone tell me, how much work is needed for this "dumbing down" process from few million poly's to few thousands? Texture work included.
90% creation of uber model
10% dumbing it down to console spec
???
SneakyStephan
Banned
Pause that video at 2.04
We got the one on the left in console games right now,not the one on the right sadly.
Even still : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu3ReDgZR0M&feature=related from the high end card (9700 was the mid end) holds up a lot better, shadows in most games are still blockier/jaggier than those and devs don't even bother with fur.
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
The BD player and the Cell were the main culprits IIRC.
Death Dealer
Member
Right. IIRC back in 2006, Blu-ray laser diodes cost something crazy, like over $150 each.
Sony should be able to sell a fairly powerful PS4 (at least as advanced as PS3 was at release) for $400-450 without taking a huge loss like the last time.
Shin Johnpv
Member
The ram wasn't cheap either.
It wasn't one thing that made the PS3 as expensive to make as it was. Even with out a BD Drive, the PS3 would have been costly.
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
Yeah, the XDA(?) RAM was pretty hi-tech back then, if I'm not mistaken. Also, the BC PS3s released in NA basically included a built-in PS2 since the emulation was all hardware based rather than the part hardware, part software based emulation European BC PS3s got, so that added to the cost too.
Death Dealer
Member
IIRC, the transistor count and area on the wafer were comparable between PS3's Cell & RSX and X360's Xenon/EDRAM/Xenos. The Blu-Ray drive was the big reason why PS3 was initially a lot more expensive to manufacture than X360. Everything else in the PS3 hardware cost a little more, like 256MB of XDR and PS2 BC, but the BD was the majority of the cost differential. If PS3 had kept everything the same but launched with DVD instead, it could have been sold to close to the same price, if not the same price, as the X360 IMO.
Phonomezer
Banned
Seriously :lol
iamshadowlark
Banned
The Cell had terrible yields when PS3 was launched which was the factor that drove its price up.
I honestly don't see that. It feels like MS has either sacked or lost everyone that knew anything about what gamers want. Their whole infrastructure seems geared toward the casuals. I don't think they'll be able to change their focus that quickly, or even if they want to.
I do realize that it probably doesn't make that much sense from a business perspective to focus too hard on the hardcore crowd but that's the crowd I'm identifying with so that's what I want them to do.
Melchiah
Member
I just need to correct that. 9700 Pro was high end in 2002, and 9500 was the middle entry. 9800 and 9600 were updated versions of them, which were released in 2003.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_R300
la flama blanca
Banned
It's better to be older and look back at the fact that you were doing more important things instead.
"BigTnaples
Look at the high fidelity models from Gears 3."
Looks like a PC game.
Which PC game looks like this again?
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
No work involved at all, just let the game run sub-HD and have massive slowdowns.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Haha so much win in this post.
I totally agree.
Id imagine production times and by proxy production costs would actually go down because the artists/modelers wouldnt have to create super low poly versions of their already high poly work....the middle part of asset creation "dumbing down for sake of sanity/console peasants" would be elliminated or shortened substancially.
Well there isnt one standard way to get this done, every artist with have their own techniques. And with that the amount of work will change.
Some common ways ive come across for current gen assets include:
Create your high poly model, model a low poly over(on) the high poly. (The high poly acts as a 3D blueprint)
Use high poly to create normals, bake and done...you now have a low poly model that kinda looks high poly for peasants.
You could also:
Create mid poly model(save it), add more and more detail to your mid poly until it reaches desired poly count/look, save as new file.
Create normal maps from high poly and bake onto low poly and done.
Another way is pretty much the opposite of the above:
Create your high poly model, remove details eventually ending up with a low poly model, use original high poly model to create normal maps for low poly model, bake and done.
(slightly simplified)
Im guessing with the next gen of console devs will find new ways to give us high quality assets at a cheap price.
Forget percentages. What artists do is make a high poly model, bake a normal map from it, make a low poly model based on the high poly one (a lot of ways to do this) then apply the normal map.
That new way is going to be tessellation. Its infantile right now, but as devs figure out how to use it it will be big. This is one of the reasons why I think the nextgen consoles will use cards based on second or third generation DX11 ATI/Nvidia tech. The Nvidia 500's and ATI 6000's series isn't really all that efficient at performing tessellation.
Kenshin001
Member
Most people don't care about these things either. They care about price and what is popular.
Ken Masters
Banned
"BigTnaples
Look at the high fidelity models from Gears 3."
Looks like a PC game.
no PC game comes close to that
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
I haven't used it, but I thought the way Epic described the process for UE3 (way back when they introduced it) was...
Build high-poly model.
Make low-poly approximation of model.
UDK makes a normal map to describe the difference between the two
?
"BigTnaples
Look at the high fidelity models from Gears 3."
Looks like a PC game.
S-Rank troll.
I salute you, sir.
Louis Cyphre
Banned
Toy Story 2 graphics here we come.
We've yet to properly match Toy Story 1, let alone Toy Story 2.
bigdaddygamebot
Member
Technically...wasn't the PS3 supposed to have more "POWER" than the 360?
That worked out well didn't it?
That worked out well didn't it?
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