Metalmurphy
Member
Don't say it it like it's a good thing, also, I doubt PSN servers run on Cell hardware
PSM: PS4 specs more powerful than Xbox 720
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Don't say it it like it's a good thing, also, I doubt PSN servers run on Cell hardware
Yes, I mentioned that Blu-ray did slow PS3 down at the beginning, but developers also didn't know how to use Cell. PSN was not ready. Sony lost major exclusive titles to 360, which may be the bigger reason for the loss of momentum. Plus PS3 marketing were simply not performing, and the board members were fighting with each other, making the whole picture more confusing internally. And the Yen preventing Sony from dropping price.
BR did help to sell HDTV and players. There are many people who bought Sony TVs, just not as many as Samsung and Vizio. The problem is the price eroded faster than they could sell them. And Yen.
[Scratch head] Why do I need to champion BR when it already helped the movie industry ? It's in their press releases and statements. I certainly didn't write the rumors for WiiU and 720 using blue laser or Blu-ray. And Sony does have all those revenues from the entire BR value chain, and more future plans regarding BR. You won't find them in past posts because they haven't happened yet at that time. ^_^
All 3 next gen consoles will be using BD-ROM drives. Nobody's going to care about 4K, however. Nor should they. Any practical home use for 4K is a decade off at best.
Correct, for a unified pool of memory that's the best we can expect from any near-term console. 2GB of GDDR5 on a 128bit bus.
Maxwell has been delayed until 2014. It is far too long away to be considered in a late 2013/early 2014 console.
Yes. To do otherwise would be market suicide at this point. We should hope that they don't have any designers left that want to go that route.
Wow that ... I don't even know what to say to it. No.
In short, it may not be as cut-and-dry as that. A Fusion based on or similar to Trinity would be my guess as to one of the possible candidates in the PS4.
As charlequin has pointed out on various occasions, blu ray royalties will never, ever come close to recouping what has been a failure on all other fronts. And I say that not to slight the PS3 (it has lots of fantastic games and a relatively strong first party presence) but to recognize that the PS3 has been a giant misstep for the company in every conceivable fashion. Cell included, to those who still think it will be a primary CPU in the PS4.
Melchiah
Member
So, you're saying Microsoft has to pay 9$ royalties per unit to the Blu-Ray consortium (including Sony), if they decide to use the technology for their next console?
If the next Xbox sells 60 million units again, they'll have to pay 540 million to the consortium. Not a bad deal for the parties involved.
badcrumble
Member
Some people can't get it through their heads that just because Cell/RSX was a big mistake in the PS3 doesn't mean that Cell would be a big mistake in the PS4. It's a lot like Blu-Ray in that respect.
H_Prestige
Banned
Are you guys still arguing that a fucking blu ray drive took sony from first to last? Christ. I can guarantee you that if they put a DVD drive in there instead the ps3 would still lose billions and still wind up in third. Only Sony corp would have also lost their entire capital investment in blu ray production and licensing revenue.
There was a big change in the marketplace starting from 2005 onwards. It was not the same as it was in the late 90's and early 2000's when Sony was dominating. MS and Nintendo were prepared and Sony wasn't. That's what happened. Not some blue laser diodes.
There was a big change in the marketplace starting from 2005 onwards. It was not the same as it was in the late 90's and early 2000's when Sony was dominating. MS and Nintendo were prepared and Sony wasn't. That's what happened. Not some blue laser diodes.
If you go standard PPC architecture (OoO PPC rather than PPE) or x86 (x64 rather than PPE) there is no "steep" learning curve again.
What you're discounting entirely in this post is that the PPE is an outdated architecture. It can exist in the PS4 for BC reasons, I suppose, but you're far better using your silicon budget on a more modern, contemporary design. Both in terms of bang-for-your-buck and for developers. Most of the coders I know would much rather code for an OoO multicore, rather than an in-order single core with multiple SPE's.
They only have to pay royalties if they choose video playback on their BD drives. Nintendo said they're not going to (much as they did with DVD playback royalties the last 2 gens) but I will wager that MS is going to pony up for it. Regardless, not only is it a small drop in the bucket for Sony - I think the royalties have recently been halved per disc and per unit.
The PS3 was a whole string of failures, not just one. There is no "single" cause to its woes. Personally, I saw BluRay video playback as a valueadd for instance. Many did. But it was *one* of the many reasons that turned the PS3 into a money sink for Sony.
Assuming no bulk discount of some kind, that the royalty doesn't decrease before then, that MS doesn't put the royalty on the consumer in a more direct fashion, yes.
iamshadowlark
Banned
And as I pointed out to charlequin, on various occasions its not as simple as that. Cell won't be the primary CPU no but I'd bet my house that alot of its tech does make it in. Notably the SPUs.
vandaliser
Banned
Don't say it it like it's a good thing, also, I doubt PSN servers run on Cell hardware
I am not talking about cosmetic changes. I am talking about complete overhaul redesign which would require major code changes. If processor is changed then you will have to tailor your software to your hardware
By the way Majority of the money from blu ray royalties comes from disk structure which orginates from blu laser technology. This means even nintendo would have to royalties even if they don't use blu ray playback. Although i am not hundred percent sure how much goes where and to whom
As brain_stew has mentioned, you can't just bolt a bunch of SPUs onto a newer PPC design rather than the existing PPE architecture it was designed around. It would require a hefty investment of R&D time and money to design a "new" Cell architecture. But you know that already.
They wouldn't pay any royalties. They pay for the ROM drive.
vandaliser
Banned
Steep or no steep. You can either make use of the code and APIS you have accumulated this gen or you can dump them and start on new ones next gen. Why go through all that again when you can use what you have now for the next 10 years. It's not rocket science
As for the coders bit, it's irrelevant. What matters here are sony's own programmers and engineers.
When we say long-term, do you believe blu-ray will be the standard for the next century?
It is believed that Blu Ray will be the LAST Physical Media Storage Format to be used when it comes to discs. Each new generation there will be upgrades where 50gb will be the standard not 25gb, then 100gb, 400gb, etc etc etc, lasers etc but still blu ray.
Part of it has to do with movie studios. The format push to hd media has to do with making it easier and cheaper to record and transfer in hd. Basically not only was it better to have uncompressed videos in ffxiii but its less work and cheaper than having to compress, no extra man hours involved. Same goes for recording movies and tv in hd.
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/blu-ray.htm
It all has to do with a little knowledge of what the goal is not just does xbox or playstation use it. For instance I found it interesting that people scoffed at blu ray read speeds stating that dvd was superior but in fact it has to do with development and how the media is planned to be used. (hence why sometimes people use the "lazy developer" term, unwilling to change with the times or holding out until they have no choice)
If I understand it correctly, the dvd spits out small bits of data faster than a blu ray, but a blu ray spits out larger bits of data at a time. I've often wondered if this is something Naughty Dog and Guerrilla Games took into account and why they were able to release games on blu ray that handled more graphics and audio better than some dvd based games, they are spitting out large chunks of data per second. While other devs are just using dvd technology and porting it to the blu ray to handle the same way.
If blu ray failed, hd dvd would have taken over, regardless of ps3 and xbox, the movie studios were moving away from dvd which was becoming costly when it came to post production movies and television.
PC games may have shipped on dvd but installed on hard discs. Two areas where the 360 was a bit of a hindering (when considering future proofing) no hd-dvd/blu ray to stream from and no guarantee that the 360 a game is purchased for would have a hard drive.
As far as sony losing money due to having a blu ray player, meh.. Sony calls that Tuesday.
2001
http://www.forbes.com/2001/01/25/0125disaster.html
PS2 was more expensive than the competition as was the PS1, I honestly don't know of, and have never been answered when i ask the question;
"Has Sony ever released a product that was considered price competitive or affordable?"
iamshadowlark
Banned
Theres not alot in the Cell Spec that suggests the SPU's are desgined around the PPE, or that they are dependent specifically on the PPE. The biggest changes would have to be made around the EIB and other memory structures.
I would admit I only have basic hardware knowledge, being a software guy so if anybody wanted to correct me, feel free.
piSquaredOver6
Banned
lol what are you people pc devs or something? consoles dont need ooo hardware lol. thats the biggest waste of transistors a console can have.
jeff_rigby
Banned
How about the Exmor-R camera sensor, buying the Nagasaki plant and planning to dominate the CMOS Camera sensor business. How about the partnership with Hitachi and Toshiba to produce OLED panels for small handhelds. Are transparent OLED glasses for AR coming out of the same partnership?
Never mind, I forget who I'm talking to when discussing anything Sony.
You can keep spinning positives for the inclusion of blu-ray or pretend that profits from the medium will make up the billions lost by the PS3, but I much rather live in reality.
Edit:
Maybe if people would stop bringing it up blu-ray revenue recouping PS3 losses, we can stop discussing it. =p
Melchiah
Member
The fact, that many of the Sony's 1st party games don't have mandatory HDD installs (and if they do, they tend to be smaller than the 3rd party installs) suggests that might be the case.
EDIT:
I've always wondered about the same thing. Why people make it seem like the PS2 would have been far cheaper than the PS3? It's not the first time I've mentioned it here, but the PS2 cost ~503€ (2995FIM) here when it was released in November 2000. 599€ for the PS3 in March 2007, over six years after the PS2, didn't seem that much in comparison. Especially when you count in the inflation.
vandaliser
Banned
If sony lost to toshiba, it would have been much much worse.
As blu ray will be for the forseable future the last optical format, (you cant go beyond blue laser tech right now) this investment has paid off for the next 30 to 40 years. I doubt at this point in time if sony is wondering what if they used a DVD drive for the ps3
As blu ray will be for the forseable future the last optical format, (you cant go beyond blue laser tech right now) this investment has paid off for the next 30 to 40 years. I doubt at this point in time if sony is wondering what if they used a DVD drive for the ps3
iamshadowlark
Banned
Need? No. But it is definetly something you should strive for. Clock speed is mostly irrelevant these days so the few advantages In-Order hardware have are out-weighed.
Cerebral Assassin
Member
The PS1 was significantly cheaper than the Saturn (£100/$100).
So you mean to tell me that rather than the $600 price tag, the PS3's problems were undefined "changes in the marketplace"? What changes were these?
bigtroyjon
Member
Before the PS3 launched, the marketplace had never had a mainstream console bomb at the $600 price point. How could Sony possibly anticipate that historical trend changing?
You've been wrong with so many things in these threads, what makes you think you're right with this one?
One easy benefit for OoO is that it helps with stalls, which is a big boost.
Oh and on royalties, if MS does include the blu ray drive, will they go the nintendo route and only use it for games and disable playback to avoid royalties? Nintendo did financially well by not allowing dvd playback, but that also opened up a must have a second console to play hd games and watch movies.
MS likes to have people pay them royalties (think android, silverlight, etc), ms hates paying royalties.
MS likes to have people pay them royalties (think android, silverlight, etc), ms hates paying royalties.
dragonelite
Member
also cheapens up development cost. I heard that good coders that can design good flow are kinda expensive
.No I think the change was hardware color. Back in the Dreamcast's era the marketplace hadn't changed yet so the white DC bombed. Clearly this generation was all about white. Think about it. The most successful console? White. #2? White! Biggest money sink? Not white!
H_Prestige
Banned
Ok, they put a DVD drive in there. They launch at $399/$499. They still lose hundreds of dollars per unit. They still get their ass kicked by the Wii and motion gaming. They still lose all their third party exclusives to the 360. How is that any different than what actually happened? You think launching at $100 less somehow changes all of that? In retrospect, Sony could have designed the same exact box MS did with the 360 and get price parity. Even launch at the same time. Great, but how does that help them against the Wii?
The problem was the whole product itself. It wasn't positioned well to deal with much stronger competition from MS and it wasn't designed to attract the boatloads of people Nintendo was suddenly attracting with the Wii.
vandaliser
Banned
someone give this man a prize. At last someone gets it. It was never the 600 dollars that blew away sony.
It was the wii and the loss of third party exclusives from last gen that defined playstation. If nintendo released another gamecube and
if those morons phil harrison and jack tretton payed rockstar, capcom for exclusives instead of shoveling money into lair,heavenly sword and countless other money pits, sony could have released at 800 dollars and people would have bought the console.
As it was sony had no answer to the wii and their ace in the hole last gen was taken away by quick MS agressiveness.
indeed... i dont think $100 less would have changed PS3 fortunes so much... But they would have lost the BD format war, and heck a lot of people bought PS3 due to the BD as well.
People act as if without BD, PS3 would have been $299... no, it wouldnt be.
It would have been $399 if they have removed BD, WiFi, HDD, added proprietary everything and charged $50 for online gaming. It still wouldnt have sold more than Wii either.
You don't convince people by repeating your own points over and over and not addressing what they have said about your position. I understand what you're saying, I'm just saying you are wrong.
I understand that you hold Cell dearly, and I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by giving the impression of saying that Cell won't be in the PS4. If you read back my posts however, you can see how I argued that Cell is required for backwards compatibility. All I've been arguing against in this thread is the likeliness of Sony creating some sort of Super Cell for the PS4.
Of course you could keep the same libraries and software if they'd keep Cell. The PS4 will however be a completely different console, with different software. Just like the next Xbox and the Wii U will be. I really don't understand how the 'experience' and 'libraries' PS3 developers have built up are so special.
gundamkyoukai
Member
No the price was a problem why do think PS3 start to selling good when slim came out for 299\399.
Another problem was coming a year and half later in Europe at double the price of X box 360.
Sony losing it third party exclusives was problem yes but that was not the only factor .
Do people really think any console making can bring out a system for more than 399 and it's going to sell for a few exclusives are kidding there self.
Still blu in 2042? Oh what a sad future.
vandaliser
Banned
hurt my feelings? if your trying to get jibes in, the playground is that way --------->
I gave arguments on why it's a good idea for sony to use cell 2.0 for their next console.
All you have come up is ps2, design flaws and vita nonsense.
vandaliser
Banned
price is what the consumer sees. If he thinks there's value to it then he will buy it. What do you think would have happened if GTA4 came only to playstation?
so what is your solution then?
gundamkyoukai
Member
I sure your not being serious but next 10 - 15 years DD should having taken over by then .
Which i find even more sad since i like to own my stuff .
Most people would have waited until a price drop and played it then .
brain_stew
Member
Oh boy. I thought 16GB of XDR2 was crazy enough.
wonderdung
Member
Changes in underlying hardware don't always translate to significant changes in high level APIs. There will be plenty of code reuse even if next gen consoles are 1024-core Z80 or something.
vandaliser
Banned
A man can dream. Besides if you're going to have another console for 10 freakin years then think 10 years ahead.
10 years from now 16gb would be average i would think
iamshadowlark
Banned
What you are saying is true but high-level cell code has to be in the absolute minimum.
vandaliser
Banned
no doubt, but there will be significant changes. And that's only when you mention gaming. What about the operating system? what about security?
Hmm... It seems moot to give somone info if he only looks at past posts to determine the revenue of a living platform.
New revenues and possibilities don't count. It must only be disc royalties. Other Sony's mistakes don't count too. The billion dollar losses must be only BR's fault. They cannot be investments too. Wonder where Sony pull the $$$ to set up DADC (and Cell ?). Yen looks cheap too ! Nintendo and other major CE companies didn't lose a single cent due to high Yen for the past several years.
Blu-ray is not about recouping PS3 loss in the first place. It's to charter new directions for movies and gaming. Something like what this dude posted:
Oh wait...
When you run out of things to say, try to look at yourself first before blaming me.
H_Prestige
Banned
Slim only allowed it to sell on par with with the 360. Majority of market was still interested in playing Wii whatever and Mario Kart.
I think ps3 and 360 were just ahead of their time. They only became mass market items in the past couple of years. Beginning years were tough for both.
If the console wasn't so expensive to manufacture which made it to costly for the majority of early potential PS3 consumers, Sony could have maneuver the PS3 into a vastly different position than what they've done so far. Saying that the high price wasn't a critical issue for the platform early on is a false statement.
Now you're just being random.
Melchiah
Member
PS2 was released in Europe 13 months later than Dreamcast, with a 500€ price tag. I don't remember how much DC cost at the time, but I bet it was far less than that.
EDIT: Found info... the DC cost 1690-1795FIM = 284-302€ at the time. About 200€ difference between the systems.
The fact, that the price was over 399€ didn't seem to be a problem then.
H_Prestige
Banned
That's not what I'm saying. Price was a gigantic factor. What I'm saying is that if Sony wanted to get a $250 machine out there while not selling at a huge loss, they would have had to design a completely different system, probably something more like an overclocked ps2. That's a lot more changes than just swapping blu ray for DVD.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
My maths is probably very wrong on this but I believe a 12X blu-ray drive would take ~8 minutes to fill 16GB of RAM.
Apart from the other reasons why 16GB isn't happening, going back to Commodore VIC 20 like loading times isn't something I want.....
If my maths holds up!
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