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[jeff_rigby]

I feel that they lost touch with every single consumer product they make. There are no major sexy must-have devices in their line up. It used to the be the walk-man, then the Playstation brand, even TV's have lost their allure. They are a company of thousands of ultra-talented engineers with goddamn jokers running the show. They need someone who has both business acumen and some goddamn taste.

Sony has some of the best engineers in the business, someone with some wantons needs to insure that they create the following:

Top class Tablet
Cheap E-Reader/Tablet ala Kindle
A challenger to the Iphone. And if anyone can fucking do it, its Sony's engineers.

Then they have the PS4 and Vita to worry about of course.

These products need a "walled garden" to ensure the consumer's interest. Considering their hollywood clout (their library is huge!), their Playstation brand and network wtf are they waiting for?

They need to raise the perceived value and uniqueness of their products.

Agree with everything you have said. Problem is reality with Korea and China able to make it cheaper with Consumers buying cheap except for Apple niche products where their SOFTWARE made the products attractive.

Google and Apple are investing a ton of money in webkit with iOS and Android platforms reaping the benefits. Since HTML5 webkit is an evolving standard with Apple and Google 6 months ahead of everyone else it appears that Sony and others can't compete unless they join the Google Android ecosystem. This should not be as much of an issue soon as minimum functionality and minimal HTML5 features to support an ecosystem should be open source and available to all. That minimal HTML5 webkit webGL opensource support should be available this March 28th or SPRING 2012 which is when RVU and webkit2 API to toolkits are going to be supported by networked CE equipment.

Apple delayed releasing webkit2 code, they are required to disclose because of the GPL webkit core they are using. This and problems with 28nm put Sony and the entire industry 6 months behind, or one Gnome 6 month cycle. Example is the Vita shipped with an unfinished browser with no HTML5 <video> support which is absolutely necessary if there is no Flash support.

 

[DCKing]

And yet, that doesn't matter given the right programming paradigm, the one everyone will be using in the next generation.

What right programming paradigm is that?

 

[mrklaw]

I feel that they lost touch with every single consumer product they make. There are no major sexy must-have devices in their line up. It used to the be the walk-man, then the Playstation brand, even TV's have lost their allure. They are a company of thousands of ultra-talented engineers with goddamn jokers running the show. They need someone who has both business acumen and some goddamn taste.

Sony has some of the best engineers in the business, someone with some wantons needs to insure that they create the following:

Top class Tablet
Cheap E-Reader/Tablet ala Kindle
A challenger to the Iphone. And if anyone can fucking do it, its Sony's engineers.

Then they have the PS4 and Vita to worry about of course.

These products need a "walled garden" to ensure the consumer's interest. Considering their hollywood clout (their library is huge!), their Playstation brand and network wtf are they waiting for?

They need to raise the perceived value and uniqueness of their products.

I thought their Tablet is supposed to be one of the better android tablets?

Their e-reader (T1) is very competitive with the kindle. Direct access to local libraries in Europe (Kindle is only in UK), touch (no kindle touch outside of the US), really light and slim and attractive IMO.

Their monolith TVs with the aluminimum stands are up there with Samsungs frameless sets in terms of design, and the quality is on par too (at least with the higher end sony sets)

 

[jeff_rigby]

I thought their Tablet is supposed to be one of the better android tablets?

Their e-reader (T1) is very competitive with the kindle. Direct access to local libraries in Europe (Kindle is only in UK), touch (no kindle touch outside of the US), really light and slim and attractive IMO.

Their monolith TVs with the aluminimum stands are up there with Samsungs frameless sets in terms of design, and the quality is on par too (at least with the higher end sony sets)

Point is Sony is not now making many of these products or developing unique software for them which support Log4Girlz's post. Your observation about Samsung and Sony is telling because Samsung makes many of the Sony TVs. 2011 Sony Networked TVs used Samsung hardware but Sony went with Opera for the browser and Samsung went with QT webkit. I perhaps didn't make that clear in my earlier post.

2012 will be the start of Sony developing their own "Look and Feel" in Sony products using webkit UIs. They have hired many webkit programmers and Intellectual Property developed by them can be used across their entire product line with "Cloud" servers provided by the Sony "ecosystem". 2014 should see Sony getting back into producing much of their own hardware. PS4 is speculated 2014 after next generation Xbox release for I think the smaller die size available then or soon after 2014.

After the Spring PS3 firmware update we can get a comparison of the difference SPUs make in the PS3 vs the Xbox PPUs only. The Xbox dashboard (browser desktop) can be compared to the PS3 XBM browser desktop (my opinion).

 

[patsu]

I personally feel like Sony has lost touch with gaming...they're no longer innovating in the gaming space...they are happy with being a "me too" company.

PSP
Go
Vita

Well, their first party studios have always been innovating (e.g., Game 3.0, MLAA, Uncharted technologies).

There are a few interesting things in PSN as well (Demon's Souls uses PSN's realtime user data service).

Hardware-wise, Blu-ray, Cell, 3D gaming are both pretty advanced innovation.

Playstation Suite is forward thinking too.

These products need a "walled garden" to ensure the consumer's interest. Considering their hollywood clout (their library is huge!), their Playstation brand and network wtf are they waiting for?

They need to raise the perceived value and uniqueness of their products.

That "walled garden" is Sony Online Entertainment. Playstation Suite is one of the clients, but it is meant to run on non-Sony devices too.

 

[LittleJohnny]

Fell for it with the PS2, emotion engine: can a game make you cry?
Fell for it again with the PS3, I mean who wouldn't after looking at the Killzone trailer?
Will fall for it again, just wait until they show those tech demos!

 

[jeff_rigby]

Well, their first party studios have always been innovating (e.g., Game 3.0, MLAA, Uncharted technologies).

There are a few interesting things in PSN as well (Demon's Souls uses PSN's realtime user data service).

Hardware-wise, Blu-ray, Cell, 3D gaming are both pretty advanced innovation.

Playstation Suite is forward thinking too.

Forgot about those...I really am kinda niche too with a focus on primarily webkit so sometimes I miss parts of the big picture. Good news is it should be perceivable to all soon.

 

[F#A#Oo]

What do mean by "innovating", expand on what you want them to do?

(...)

So do you want a games console or a media box that plays games?

I'm just a consumer...I have no idea how to innovate in the gaming space...if I did I wouldn't be in my current employment...

As a consumer it's Sony's job to convince me that I desire and need their products...they've done an absolutely crap job thus far...I see them unveil stuff and go "meh...it's ok I guess but it's no XXX"...

games console or media box? Well obviously I would always go with the tech that can allow me to do various other things on top of the main purpose...

If Sony did a game console only I would be disappointed but if they did the media box I would also be disappointed if they didn't bring anything new to the table in a big way...and by that I mean that media box better be a trojan horse...

I feel that they lost touch with every single consumer product they make. There are no major sexy must-have devices in their line up. It used to the be the walk-man, then the Playstation brand, even TV's have lost their allure. They are a company of thousands of ultra-talented engineers with goddamn jokers running the show. They need someone who has both business acumen and some goddamn taste.

Sony has some of the best engineers in the business, someone with some wantons needs to insure that they create the following:

Top class Tablet
Cheap E-Reader/Tablet ala Kindle
A challenger to the Iphone. And if anyone can fucking do it, its Sony's engineers.

Then they have the PS4 and Vita to worry about of course.

These products need a "walled garden" to ensure the consumer's interest. Considering their hollywood clout (their library is huge!), their Playstation brand and network wtf are they waiting for?

They need to raise the perceived value and uniqueness of their products.

I totally agree...maybe more engineers/scientists need to be promoted within the company...Apple had Jobs and now Cook...Nintendo has Iwata...Engineers and scientists on the whole are undervalued in business it seems.

 

[Hyuga]

Fell for it with the PS2, emotion engine: can a game make you cry?
Fell for it again with the PS3, I mean who wouldn't after looking at the Killzone trailer?
Will fall for it again, just wait until they show those tech demos!

Tech-Demos? They will show some early ND/Uncharted 4 stuff and people will go crazy.

 

[KageMaru]

Hmm... It seems moot to give somone info if he only looks at past posts to determine the revenue of a living platform.
New revenues and possibilities don't count. It must only be disc royalties. Other Sony's mistakes don't count too. The billion dollar losses must be only BR's fault. They cannot be investments too. Wonder where Sony pull the $$$ to set up DADC (and Cell ?). Yen looks cheap too ! Nintendo and other major CE companies didn't lose a single cent due to high Yen for the past several years.

It seems like you were so quick to jump in head first to defend away that you missed some things. Where or when did I say blu-ray was the only reason for the billions lost over the years?

The main difference between Sony including blu-ray in the PS3 and something like high Yes is that Sony had control with the PS3. Sony couldn't stop what happened to the Yen, heck they were already at the point of no return with Cell after how much they have invested in it. However they didn't have to include blu-ray in the PS3.

If you think winning the format war (which they probably would've won anyways) was worth them losing so much per console and being pushed to 3rd place, then you probably have as much business sense as Sony did in those days.

Blu-ray is not about recouping PS3 loss in the first place.

Tell that to all the people excusing Sony's losses because blu-ray will make up the difference.

It's to charter new directions for movies and gaming. Something like what this dude posted:

Wow, talk about jumping on the hyperbolic train.

Last I checked, I still sit back and watch movies on DVDs just like I do on blu-ray. I also play the same types of games on DVDs as I do on blu-ray. Silly comments like this won't help your case.

Oh wait...

When you run out of things to say, try to look at yourself first before blaming me.

Throwing a blu-ray drive in your console in 2013 is waaaaay different than throwing it in your console in 2006. Mainly in the case that it doesn't drive up your cost to the point of insanity.

The fact that this needs to be pointed out to you is telling enough. I mean, why wouldn't MS adopt the current standard in their next machine?

 

[AZ2002]

thanx jeff and patsu . i found this article that talks about the new Cell processor that will be used in both new Bravia TVs and the PS4 here are parts of it tell me what you think?.

===============================

What we have been told is that Sony is working on a very fast processor which is being developed with IBM, who was the original architect with Sony and Toshiba of the Cell processor, which has been used by both Sony and Microsoft to power their gaming processors for nearly 10 years.

IBM sources claim that the new multi core PowerPC processor, which Big Blue, has spent several years developing is now part of a joint development project with the Japanese company.

The new 32nm Cell processor is tipped to be capable of up to 16 SPEs which is twice as fast as the current Cell processor according to IBM leaks.

Japanese sources claim that Sony is gearing up to manufacture the Cell processor in bulk with some analysts tipping that the new processor will also appear in Sony notebooks and built into new Sony Bravia TVs.

Intel sources have said that they are also working on a new processor that will be ideal for future gaming consoles as well as for use in devices that are both gaming console and media hubs.

At a recent Sony conference call in Japan the head of the company's Networked Products & Services division &#8211; which develops for the PlayStation brand and Sony PCs, hinted that it was working on the PlayStation 4 but would not give any details.

"For the home equipment the PS3 still has a product life," said Sony's Masaru Kato who hinted that development work for the PS4 was currently underway".He added: "It is no longer thinkable to have a huge initial financial investment like that of the PS3.""But this is a platform business, so for the future platform &#8211; when we'll be introducing what product, I cannot discuss &#8211; but our development work is already under way, so the costs are incurred there."

At the recent CES show a senior Sony executive told me that the company had speculated as to whether they needed a new Playstation console. "What we need is a fast processor that delivers content including gaming and 3D movies to a display screen. That processor could be built into a TV a media hub for connection to non-Sony display screen with content delivered over an IP network".

"We will always need a means by which people can access content other than via an IP network, because in many countries there is no fast broadband infrastructure. This is where Blu ray will have a life after markets like Europe and the US have moved onto fibre networks".

As to when the new processor will appear Sony Computer Entertainment UK boss Ray Maguire told Tech Radar recently: "The online side is very interesting and is a big part of our business going forward. But in terms of what sort of technology we'll be using, it's far too early to say yet because we're only half way through the lifecycle of PS3 - there are many years to come on that machine."


http://smarthouse.com.au/Gaming/Industry/F5C6F8A6?page=1

 

[patsu]

I thought their Tablet is supposed to be one of the better android tablets?

Yes, but they should have just focused on one, not two tablets. Tablet P's dual screen needs more polish, and reviews are not so great.

Their e-reader (T1) is very competitive with the kindle. Direct access to local libraries in Europe (Kindle is only in UK), touch (no kindle touch outside of the US), really light and slim and attractive IMO.

Yes, Sony eReader is very competitive hardware- and price-wise. But Sony can't really compete with Amazon for content library, or Apple for authoring tools. Again, they should have just focused on one tablet, so that they have enough resources to create exclusive software initiatives.

Their monolith TVs with the aluminimum stands are up there with Samsungs frameless sets in terms of design, and the quality is on par too (at least with the higher end sony sets)

Yes, their monolith TV design is interesting. I think the price needs to come down. People want Sony TVs but they are more expensive than the competition.

 

[patsu]

...

I'm not familiar with that article. It sounds dated though.

 

[jeff_rigby]

thanx jeff and patsu . i found this article that talks about the new Cell processor that will be used in both new Bravia TVs and the PS4 here are parts of it tell me what you think?.

===============================

What we have been told is that Sony is working on a very fast processor which is being developed with IBM, who was the original architect with Sony and Toshiba of the Cell processor, which has been used by both Sony and Microsoft to power their gaming processors for nearly 10 years.

IBM sources claim that the new multi core PowerPC processor, which Big Blue, has spent several years developing is now part of a joint development project with the Japanese company.

The new 32nm Cell processor is tipped to be capable of up to 16 SPEs which is twice as fast as the current Cell processor according to IBM leaks.

Japanese sources claim that Sony is gearing up to manufacture the Cell processor in bulk with some analysts tipping that the new processor will also appear in Sony notebooks and built into new Sony Bravia TVs.

Intel sources have said that they are also working on a new processor that will be ideal for future gaming consoles as well as for use in devices that are both gaming console and media hubs.

At a recent Sony conference call in Japan the head of the company's Networked Products & Services division &#8211; which develops for the PlayStation brand and Sony PCs, hinted that it was working on the PlayStation 4 but would not give any details.

"For the home equipment the PS3 still has a product life," said Sony's Masaru Kato who hinted that development work for the PS4 was currently underway".He added: "It is no longer thinkable to have a huge initial financial investment like that of the PS3.""But this is a platform business, so for the future platform &#8211; when we'll be introducing what product, I cannot discuss &#8211; but our development work is already under way, so the costs are incurred there."

At the recent CES show a senior Sony executive told me that the company had speculated as to whether they needed a new Playstation console. "What we need is a fast processor that delivers content including gaming and 3D movies to a display screen. That processor could be built into a TV a media hub for connection to non-Sony display screen with content delivered over an IP network".

"We will always need a means by which people can access content other than via an IP network, because in many countries there is no fast broadband infrastructure. This is where Blu ray will have a life after markets like Europe and the US have moved onto fibre networks".

As to when the new processor will appear Sony Computer Entertainment UK boss Ray Maguire told Tech Radar recently: "The online side is very interesting and is a big part of our business going forward. But in terms of what sort of technology we'll be using, it's far too early to say yet because we're only half way through the lifecycle of PS3 - there are many years to come on that machine."

http://smarthouse.com.au/Gaming/Industry/F5C6F8A6?page=1

Add h.265 (HEVC) to the above and parts of it make much more sense. But that article is nearly a year old and doesn't confirm Cell in Sony platforms. Sony is probably still at 45nm for the cell and support for it probably not economically efficient in anything but very high end like 4k TV and 4k blu-ray and that justified only by already developed for PS3 code and having a firmware updatable solution for h.265 which might change. Future 4k blu-ray will probably use a cheaper all hardware dedicated codec solution. Smaller die size is going to change that equation with Cell then being economically practical for all CE.

Smarthouse article and the author used quotes from multiple people to build up a picture of where Sony might be going. There is nothing wrong with that but it can be misleading. For instance the 32nm die size mentioned (IBM) as being used for the next generation game console conflicts for other news articles about Sony skipping 32nm for the PS3 which is pretty much confirmed now as a slimmer PS3 slim didn't happen last year. 32nm for a PS4, I don't think so. WiiU to be 32nm yes, next generation Xbox...no to that unless they are in an absolute rush to release.

 

[AZ2002]

Tell that to all the people excusing Sony's losses because blu-ray will make up the difference.

the high cost for the PS3 didn't come from the bluray driver only the Cell processor contributed to that also.

 

[LittleJohnny]

Tech-Demos? They will show some early ND/Uncharted 4 stuff and people will go crazy.

We'll have to wait a bit longer before we see actual projects. Early stuff never looks impressive, imagine seeing actual gameplay of Gundam Crossfire instead of the CG video that was shown at E3 :O

 

[AZ2002]

@patsu,jeff_rigby: the article is 7 months old as it talks about the usage of 32nm cell processor capable of handling up to 16 SPU. but this part here is interesting as they are already spending money on R&D for the PS4 for the 2010 FY as i found it also in Sony 2010 FY report not just the article:

said Sony's Masaru Kato who hinted that development work for the PS4 was currently underway". (("But this is a platform business, so for the future platform &#8211; when we'll be introducing what product, I cannot discuss &#8211; but our development work is already under way, so the costs are incurred there.")).

are they waiting for the 28nm die size for the cell ? .

 

[SonComet]

@patsu,jeff_rigby: the article is 7 months old as it talks about the usage of 32nm cell processor capable of handling up to 16 SPU. but this part here is interesting as they are already spending money on R&D for the PS4 for the 2010 FY as i found it also in Sony 2010 FY report not just the article:

said Sony's Masaru Kato who hinted that development work for the PS4 was currently underway". (("But this is a platform business, so for the future platform – when we'll be introducing what product, I cannot discuss – but our development work is already under way, so the costs are incurred there.")).

are they waiting for the 28nm die size for the cell ? .

My understanding is that with a modern GPU the cell is totally redundant/unnecessary. It's slower than modern GPUs at the tasks it helps the RSX with now. I doubt we'll see one in the PS4.

 

[LittleJohnny]

@patsu,jeff_rigby: the article is 7 months old as it talks about the usage of 32nm cell processor capable of handling up to 16 SPU. but this part here is interesting as they are already spending money on R&D for the PS4 for the 2010 FY as i found it also in Sony 2010 FY report not just the article:

said Sony's Masaru Kato who hinted that development work for the PS4 was currently underway". (("But this is a platform business, so for the future platform – when we'll be introducing what product, I cannot discuss – but our development work is already under way, so the costs are incurred there.")).

are they waiting for the 28nm die size for the cell ? .

I hate to say this but the more we wait, the better tech we can get, theoretically at least. If both MS and Sony were planning on cutting costs next gen, then waiting 7-8 years for new hardware wouldn't hurt even if we get at least 2011-12 hardware in 2013-14.

 

[jeff_rigby]

@patsu,jeff_rigby: the article is 7 months old as it talks about the usage of 32nm cell processor capable of handling up to 16 SPU. but this part here is interesting as they are already spending money on R&D for the PS4 for the 2010 FY as i found it also in Sony 2010 FY report not just the article:

said Sony's Masaru Kato who hinted that development work for the PS4 was currently underway". (("But this is a platform business, so for the future platform &#8211; when we'll be introducing what product, I cannot discuss &#8211; but our development work is already under way, so the costs are incurred there.")).

are they waiting for the 28nm die size for the cell ? .

Smarthouse article and the author used quotes from multiple people to build up a picture of where Sony might be going. There is nothing wrong with that but it can be misleading. For instance the 32nm die size mentioned (IBM) as being used for the next generation game console conflicts for other news articles about Sony skipping 32nm for the PS3 which is pretty much confirmed now as a slimmer PS3 slim didn't happen last year. 32nm for a PS4, I don't think so. WiiU to be 32nm yes, next generation Xbox...no to that unless they are in an absolute rush to release.

So my guess is 28nm or next die process for PS4 with IBM making the next gen Cell for the first year or so until Sony retools the Nagasaki plant. This is supported by Sony statements and the IBM guy on NeoGAF mentioning they have Game console projectS out till 2014.

My understanding is that with a modern GPU the cell is totally redundant/unnecessary. It's slower than modern GPUs at the tasks it helps the RSX with now. I doubt we'll see one in the PS4.

Not quite right. With a hundred plus GPU shaders running in parallel @ 1.5Ghz a modern GPU is faster than 4 SPUs running at 3.2Ghz at some tasks. Some tasks can not be easily split up and need very fast processing.

 

[KageMaru]

the high cost for the PS3 didn't come from the bluray driver only the Cell processor contributed to that also.

*sigh*

Yes but IIRC Cell didn't add as much to the cost as blu-ray. Besides, Cell was planned from the beginning and it's not like Sony had any other options for a CPU if they wanted to opt out. With blu-ray however, they had other options.

@patsu,jeff_rigby: the article is 7 months old as it talks about the usage of 32nm cell processor capable of handling up to 16 SPU. but this part here is interesting as they are already spending money on R&D for the PS4 for the 2010 FY as i found it also in Sony 2010 FY report not just the article:

said Sony's Masaru Kato who hinted that development work for the PS4 was currently underway". (("But this is a platform business, so for the future platform – when we'll be introducing what product, I cannot discuss – but our development work is already under way, so the costs are incurred there.")).

are they waiting for the 28nm die size for the cell ? .

It's not uncommon to be developing your next console years in advance. Heck brain storming starts shortly after your current console just launches.

A 2013 launch date would indicate they plan to use 28nm.

 

[phosphor112]

Fell for it with the PS2, emotion engine: can a game make you cry?
Fell for it again with the PS3, I mean who wouldn't after looking at the Killzone trailer?
Will fall for it again, just wait until they show those tech demos!

Didn't cry at the end of MGS3?

Lying sack of... lol. Seriously though. PS2 had some of the greatest games ever.

 

[LosDaddie]

someone give this man a prize. At last someone gets it. It was never the 600 dollars that blew away sony..

Even though you're banned now, it still needs to be said that the $600/$500 was certainly a major factor in the PS3 stumbling out of the gate. Price is always a factor. It's a major reason why the 3DS struggled, and why the PSV will struggle.

This is a common (and wrong) argument people use to defend and excuse any form of bad corporate governance.

Yes, I'm sure that Sony did in fact do some "studies," but that's irrelevant. Big conglomerates do "studies" all the time, for basically every major decision they make, and yet they still have bomb products, audience mismatches, and all manner of other stupendous failures all the time -- because there's nothing perfect about doing "studies" and if market research isn't done correctly it'll often just confirm the marketers' biases rather than provide useful information.

In the specific case of the BluRay drive, Sony's intent was to take an extra marginal loss on each unit of the PS3 they made but otherwise maintain their domination in the console arena, and in exchange to guarantee domination of the upcoming movie format. Instead, what happened is that they turned a business that previously made a $4b profit over a generation into one that generated a $6b loss -- so a delta between their two choices of somewhere between $6b and $10b of lost cash and opportunity. The BluRay royalties that Sony actually sees are going to add up to maybe a tenth of that all told; Sony's only seeing maybe 1/3 of the total consortium royalties and BluRay's a smaller business than DVD was.

In other words, sacrificing the gaming market to ensure BluRay's dominance was a huge, unambiguous mistake on Sony's part. Now, if they'd worked it out in a way that they could actually use the PS3 as a Trojan horse without hurting the console brand? Would've been a great choice. But as it worked out, this was an immense strategic blunder.

You can argue, as H_Prestige did, that the BluRay drive is salvaged because PS3 was such an all-around disaster that removing BRD wouldn't have fixed it and therefore they wound up better with a console division in ruins but a successful disc format than they would've been with a console division in ruins and a loss to HD-DVD. Hell, that might even be right -- I'd have to do more research to have an informed opinion on it. But the idea that it was a conscious tradeoff that paid off is completely wrong.

Damn, Charlequin laying down the law. :lol

I can and will say that sony would have dominated with a properly priced console. MS isn't a powerful competitor at all, the only reason they have got to the position they're in now is because of sonys mistakes. MS was gifted a year headstart and a massive advantage in terms of price.

If sony had released a moderately priced PS3 they would have blown away the competition, there is no doubt in my mind.

You underestimate MS here. The X360 currently being in 2nd place is due to both Sony blunders, and MS' strategy for this gen. They actively courted 3rd party devs, and delivered a very dev-friendly platform/toolkit for them to work on. But yeah, a better priced PS3 would probably have it in 2nd place right now.

 

[patsu]

It seems like you were so quick to jump in head first to defend away that you missed some things. Where or when did I say blu-ray was the only reason for the billions lost over the years?

My original post merely pointed out that BR revenue is more than disc royalties. Plus when you only look at past posts to gauge BR's revenue and success, it would only be an outdated picture.

There is indeed no need for BR to bare the entire PS3 investments alone. The Playstation business will expand in its own way to make money too.

The main difference between Sony including blu-ray in the PS3 and something like high Yes is that Sony had control with the PS3. Sony couldn't stop what happened to the Yen, heck they were already at the point of no return with Cell after how much they have invested in it. However they didn't have to include blu-ray in the PS3.

Without BR, their movie studios would have suffered a more severe DVD decline. It will be worse for Sony and the movie industry since they don't have a new platform to move ahead, like Sony's TV business.

Moving forward, they now have a good optical disc format to based PS4 on. If they were to delay BR format until now, it would be tougher to push due to the worse economy today. Add the Yen challenges, the picture would be abyssal.

If you think winning the format war (which they probably would've won anyways) was worth them losing so much per console and being pushed to 3rd place, then you probably have as much business sense as Sony did in those days.

There you go about the "only" reason for Sony's woes again. Blu-ray does not cause all the problems that plagued Sony. Sony fumbled along the way due to other reasons too. The strong yen also prevented them from lowering price. I cited other reasons in my earlier post.

Tell that to all the people excusing Sony's losses because blu-ray will make up the difference.

Those people believe that BR will someday recoup Sony's losses. For all I know, they may or may not be right. But yes, BR does not need to bear the full cost alone. SCE should shoulder their share of the investments.

Wow, talk about jumping on the hyperbolic train.

Last I checked, I still sit back and watch movies on DVDs just like I do on blu-ray. I also play the same types of games on DVDs as I do on blu-ray. Silly comments like this won't help your case.

The trick is to look beyond your own needs. There is nothing silly about it. The world does not revolve around you only. Based on published numbers, consumers bought Blu-ray despite DVD decline. It means that they can appreciate the new experiences, and are upgrading. There are also new initiatives like 3D and 4K that can't fit on DVD.

As for gaming related improvement, look at some developers who pointed out DVD's limitation. In some cases, you can't see the difference because the devs are limited to the lowest common dominator.

Throwing a blu-ray drive in your console in 2013 is waaaaay different than throwing it in your console in 2006. Mainly in the case that it doesn't drive up your cost to the point of insanity.

The fact that this needs to be pointed out to you is telling enough. I mean, why wouldn't MS adopt the current standard in their next machine?

Because they don't have a movie arm ? Different companies have different needs. Sony is very different from MS.

Throwing a BR drive in 2013 looks easier now only because Sony has already walked the ground. Without them, it may be even tougher to get companies and consumers to invest in a new physical format today.

Now that Sony has worked out a optical disc format for PS4, they can focus on other innovation.

 

[AzaK]

Before the PS3 launched, the marketplace had never had a mainstream console bomb at the $600 price point. How could Sony possibly anticipate that historical trend changing?

NeoGeo?

 

[KageMaru]

My original post merely pointed out that BR revenue is more than disc royalties. Plus when you only look at past posts to gauge BR's revenue and success, it would only be an outdated picture.

There is indeed no need for BR to bare the entire PS3 investments alone. The Playstation business will expand in its own way to make money too.



Without BR, their movie studios would have suffered a more severe DVD decline. It will be worse for Sony and the movie industry since they don't have a new platform to move ahead, like Sony's TV business.

Moving forward, they now have a good optical disc format to based PS4 on. If they were to delay BR format until now, it would be tougher to push due to the worse economy today. Add the Yen challenges, the picture would be abyssal.



There you go about the "only" reason for Sony's woes again. Blu-ray does not cause all the problems that plagued Sony. Sony fumbled along the way due to other reasons too. The strong yen also prevented them from lowering price. I cited other reasons in my earlier post.



Those people believe that BR will someday recoup Sony's losses. For all I know, they may or may not be right. But yes, BR does not need to bear the full cost alone. SCE should shoulder their share of the investments.



The trick is to look beyond your own needs. There is nothing silly about it. Based on published numbers, other people bought Blu-ray despite DVD decline. It means that they can appreciate the new experiences, and are upgrading. There are also new initiatives like 3D and 4K that can't fit on DVD.

As for gaming related improvement, look at some developers who pointed out DVD's limitation. In some cases, you can't see the difference because the devs are limited to the lowest common dominator.



Because they don't have a movie arm ? Different companies have different needs. Sony is very different from MS.

Throwing a BR drive in 2013 looks easier now only because Sony has already walked the ground. Without them, it may be even tougher to get companies and consumers to invest in a new physical format today.

Now that Sony has worked out a optical disc format for PS4, they can focus on other innovation.

You just don't get it and I honestly give up. Every time I try to have a discussion with you, you're so focused on spinning that you miss the point entirely. Throwing a BR drive is only easier now because of Sony walking the ground?? Are you fucking serious? It's this point of corporate ass sucking that I come to the realization that all logic is lost out of the discussion.

Look at charlequin's posts to get a better idea to what I'm talking about.

Edit:

NeoGeo?

He said "mainstream" console. NeoGeo wasn't mainstream.

 

[patsu]

*sigh*

Yes but IIRC Cell didn't add as much to the cost as blu-ray. Besides, Cell was planned from the beginning and it's not like Sony had any other options for a CPU if they wanted to opt out. With blu-ray however, they had other options.

Sony does have other options for a CPU. They created it from scratch after all. There were other design alternatives, but Kutaragi chose Cell because it fits his vision. Same for BR. They needed it for HD games and movies.

 

[patsu]

You just don't get it and I honestly give up. Every time I try to have a discussion with you, you're so focused on spinning that you miss the point entirely. Throwing a BR drive is only easier now because of Sony walking the ground?? Are you fucking serious? It's this point of corporate ass sucking that I come to the realization that all logic is lost out of the discussion.

^_^ Perhaps it's because they are right ? Isn't incorporating blue laser easier and cheaper now because of BR volume ? No one else used it until PS3 came along. Not Apple, Nintendo, Microsoft. In fact, some of these guys wanted to abandon physical media. Why get mad at an observation like this ?

Look at charlequin's posts to get a better idea to what I'm talking about.

Both of you just look at disc royalties.

 

[phosphor112]

@patsu,jeff_rigby: the article is 7 months old as it talks about the usage of 32nm cell processor capable of handling up to 16 SPU. but this part here is interesting as they are already spending money on R&D for the PS4 for the 2010 FY as i found it also in Sony 2010 FY report not just the article:

said Sony's Masaru Kato who hinted that development work for the PS4 was currently underway". (("But this is a platform business, so for the future platform – when we'll be introducing what product, I cannot discuss – but our development work is already under way, so the costs are incurred there.")).

are they waiting for the 28nm die size for the cell ? .

That was before we got the picture of the 28nm, so yeah, I'm sure they are actually working on that instead. It would put them at a great advantage tech and cost wise, though that then creates an issue of market share. Unless they can keep relevance in PS3, it'll hard to keep up.

 

[mclem]

He said "mainstream" console. NeoGeo wasn't mainstream.

At $600, neither was the PS3.

 

[itsgreen]

Sony does have other options for a CPU. They created it from scratch after all. There were other design alternatives, but Kutaragi chose Cell because it fits his vision. Same for BR. They needed it for HD games and movies.

I was under the impression that despite being a new architecture it for instance has a basic (more or less common) PPC core...

Not quite from scratch...

 

[patsu]

I was under the impression that despite being a new architecture it for instance has a basic (more or less common) PPC core...

Not quite from scratch...

The PPU is not so important in Cell. I remember the Cell design document specifies that you can use other CPU as the orchestrator. Toshiba wanted it out and focused on the SPUs. IBM insisted to include the PPU for their business. The other reason is time to market.

IBM also proposed to use multiple-PPU cores as Cell, but Kutaragi turned it down. Toshiba eventually implemented their own SPU engines fitted to a different CPU.

 

[Dipswitch]

I think you have to factor the ongoing viability of the DVD sales market into any conversation about whether Sony was right to include Blu-Ray in the PS3 or not. Blu-Ray licensing revenues were only a part of their decision making process. The bigger concern shared between Sony and the studios was likely that DVD media sales were in free fall. The studios were cognizant of that fact and wanted a new, improved format out ASAP to energize the consumer market.

In theory, it should have been a slam dunk. Electronics manufacturers got to pimp pricey new hardware out to consumers who had just bought shiny new HDTV's. And the studios got to release higher priced new and catalog releases. In reality, I think uptake has been significantly slower than anticipated. And the brief format war didn't help either. Ultimately, I'm not familiar enough with the numbers to say whether sales of higher cost Blu-Ray media + licensing revenues even began to dig Sony out of the financial pit that PS3 put them in. I'd lean towards no if I were to guess.

TL;DR - Sony didn't just need Blu-Ray to succeed because it was the format they created/backed. As a studio owner, they needed it to invigorate slumping DVD/home media sales. And as an electronic company, they likely anticipated that it would drive sales of their own Blu-Ray players and HDTV's. I think their success there has been marginal, given that Blu-Ray is still viewed largely as a fringe format by Joe Public.

 

[Raoh]

Point is Sony is not now making many of these products or developing unique software for them which support Log4Girlz's post. Your observation about Samsung and Sony is telling because Samsung makes many of the Sony TVs. 2011 Sony Networked TVs used Samsung hardware but Sony went with Opera for the browser and Samsung went with QT webkit. I perhaps didn't make that clear in my earlier post.

2012 will be the start of Sony developing their own "Look and Feel" in Sony products using webkit UIs. They have hired many webkit programmers and Intellectual Property developed by them can be used across their entire product line with "Cloud" servers provided by the Sony "ecosystem". 2014 should see Sony getting back into producing much of their own hardware. PS4 is speculated 2014 after next generation Xbox release for I think the smaller die size available then or soon after 2014.

After the Spring PS3 firmware update we can get a comparison of the difference SPUs make in the PS3 vs the Xbox PPUs only. The Xbox dashboard (browser desktop) can be compared to the PS3 XBM browser desktop (my opinion).

I can see this happening. Sony just dismissed or lacked the vision of how software/apps integrated with hardware are changing the world. I always thought Stringer and the like were the biggest issues. I saw him coming from CBS trying to use Sony hardware to exploit and sell content (movies/music) then hardware and not so much care for games, no matter how many sony games sell it feels like many older execs around the world just consider gaming as a childs market not realizing many of us kids grew up and are adult gamers now. I wanted him out since 2007. Just like I dislike Ballmer, I miss the old MS just like I miss the old Sony.

Android/Google is a gift and a curse for Sony. On the one hand Android/Google TV could be big in sony's hardware future, especially since Sony is missing from the monitor and desktop pc arena. A chrome/android desktop pc could rival Vizio's low/mid level pc entries. Uniquely designed android os for sony ecosystem would be great but on the other hand that also puts money in Microsoft pockets (patents, ms making more money off of android's back than off of its own wm7). Sony's openness is great but it also needs to be more cut throat against its competitors not just its consumers (they seem to care more if I share one movie between two Sony devices than if a competitor takes market share, just more missteps by Stringer).

I was hoping Sony would have thrown their hat in the ring to purchase WebOS. The WebOS interface is perfect for sony devices including playstation.

Unification is still their biggest obstacle, I still recall around the launch of the PS3 and Sony BMG had an contest/raffle where if you bought an album or subscribed to some sony artists website you would be entered in a drawing to win a free......... wait for it.. wait for it... wait for it... XBOX 360....... At that moment I knew things were bad in the corporate offices.

 

[Endo Punk]

If the PS4 comes out in 2014-15 then yeah, maybe. But hearing Sony say they will most likely be last out of the gate makes me happy. I am in no hurry for next gen to start. I feel these 2 years will be pinnacle in the current gen.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

on the subject of Cell can someone with programming background tell us what was the problem that made the Cell difficult to use in the first place was it the lack of libraries,weak SDK.

I've been told by some 3D software programmers that some things just can't be split up across multiple cores. That for certain things its better to run them on one really fast core. Like poly mesh deformations. I've heard from a couple of Autodesk programmers that they just can't get that performing right when it's multi-threaded, where as their dynamics engine they easily got that to be multi-threaded.

Every modern CPU is multicore.

They are, but not every piece of software is multi-threaded. A lot of software ends up just running on one of the cores of your modern CPU.

 

[charlequin]

6b loss includes Cell and other investments.

Irrelevant. If the console was a success, their technological investments would've been offset by the positive revenues -- that's how R&D works. It doesn't actually matter what they spent the money on, only that they spent it and couldn't recoup it over the life of the project.

(Though again, if you want to take H_Prestige's position that the PS3 was a failure on every level and therefore fixing one of its massive money-wasting fiascos wasn't going to right the ship, that's fine.)

BR royalties is only a part of Sony's BR revenue, which includes disc pressing, consulting, authoring software, professional equipments, increased movie sales (to plug DVD's decline), blue diode manufacturing, etc.

Basically none of these are lines of business that are BluRay-specific -- every other spot in the chain is something Sony was already providing for DVD (a standard they didn't control) and could've continued to provide for HD-DVD if that had won. The specific benefit of BluRay winning comes in only in places where they can profit off of BRD but not HD-DVD, a figure that is limited to royalties.

Maybe it all will add up in the coming years, but if it takes them a decade plus to merely break even because they sunk one of their most profitable divisions in a gamble to springboard other divisions, that's not a business success.

Yeah, it's also worth noting the power of interest here. $6b in 2018 isn't remotely as valuable as $6b in 2006. On a pure comparative level, sinking a successful division to maybe have a profitable product ten years down the line is always a bad choice, because you'd be better off just keeping your successful project going and reinvesting its immediate profits into new speculative lines of business.

Otherwise, why would people pay premium for these expensive gadgets at that time ?

Because the TVs themselves are large, flat, and visually appealing. Seriously, you're arguing with market misconceptions from 2007 here. HD uptake was not driven by HD content at all, and in fact it took aggressive pushes by cable companies and the adoption of HDMI to even get most HDTV owners to watch actual HD content.

And like, when I say 2007, I mean it. Literally everything we're talking about here was hashed out already five years ago. The PS3's unambiguous economic failure and the inability for BRD to make up for it has been settled fact for some time; I feel like people are trying to do historical revisionism now because y'all think maybe it's been long enough that people forgot what happened.

 

[iamshadowlark]

My understanding is that with a modern GPU the cell is totally redundant/unnecessary. It's slower than modern GPUs at the tasks it helps the RSX with now. I doubt we'll see one in the PS4.

This is incorrect.

 

[seeds19]

This is incorrect.

explain.

 

[FLEABttn]

Because the TVs themselves are large, flat, and visually appealing. Seriously, you're arguing with market misconceptions from 2007 here. HD uptake was not driven by HD content at all, and in fact it took aggressive pushes by cable companies and the adoption of HDMI to even get most HDTV owners to watch actual HD content.

A quick search from threads in 2007 shows both anecdotal evidence and news articles about HDTV adoption and nobody understanding what the hell HD even was.

Best Buy: Consumers baffled by HDTV
30% of Xbox 360 owners aware of HD
Over 90% of those with PS3's+HDTVs are not getting HD signals.
Is "middle-america" too dumb to know the settings/cables for HD?

HD was completely secondary and a comparatively unknown thing to a populace who wanted TV's that were thin and significantly lighter and had a smaller footprint than the 50 inch front projection screen they wanted to replace.

 

[iamshadowlark]

explain.

Well,

Im gonna assume he's talking GPGPUs, since thats the new buzzword thats going around. The raw power may be there, but the overall computing architecture is still nowhere near where it needs to be if you plan on handling 30-60 fps games.

Small local memory stores, high instruction latency, mediocre thread management, minimum branch prediction, inablity to handle big data sets effectively. If you didn't have a render target to display at the same time then maybe you'd get by but being that these are video games were talking about...

 

[patsu]

Irrelevant. If the console was a success, their technological investments would've been offset by the positive revenues -- that's how R&D works. It doesn't actually matter what they spent the money on, only that they spent it and couldn't recoup it over the life of the project.

Phhhppt... talks about investment and recoup are financial and accounting concepts. Of course it is relevant to know where the $6b expense went to, and whether they are still continuing to make money. The life of PS3 and Blu-ray are not even over yet when people started filing losses under BR.

(Though again, if you want to take H_Prestige's position that the PS3 was a failure on every level and therefore fixing one of its massive money-wasting fiascos wasn't going to right the ship, that's fine.)

I don't know if PS3 needs to fail at every level to realize that Sony's challenges were/are due to more than BR. But I do know lumping all PS3's issues to BR is over-simplification.

Because the TVs themselves are large, flat, and visually appealing. Seriously, you're arguing with market misconceptions from 2007 here. HD uptake was not driven by HD content at all, and in fact it took aggressive pushes by cable companies and the adoption of HDMI to even get most HDTV owners to watch actual HD content.

Yes and no. It's always the total package that sells a product. The HD contents and the form factors are all important. People do notice the differences in quality, especially for the early adopters. It took aggressive push by all vendors to promote HD. And the ecosystem needs to be complete (from camera to player to programming).

And like, when I say 2007, I mean it. Literally everything we're talking about here was hashed out already five years ago. The PS3's unambiguous economic failure and the inability for BRD to make up for it has been settled fact for some time; I feel like people are trying to do historical revisionism now because y'all think maybe it's been long enough that people forgot what happened.

Ha ha, I was talking about Blu-ray, not PS3, regardless of how you feel. All I wanted to do initially was to point out that BR has more revenue than just disc royalties.

EDIT:

A quick search from threads in 2007 shows both anecdotal evidence and news articles about HDTV adoption and nobody understanding what the hell HD even was.

Best Buy: Consumers baffled by HDTV
30% of Xbox 360 owners aware of HD
Over 90% of those with PS3's+HDTVs are not getting HD signals.
Is "middle-america" too dumb to know the settings/cables for HD?

HD was completely secondary and a comparatively unknown thing to a populace who wanted TV's that were thin and significantly lighter and had a smaller footprint than the 50 inch front projection screen they wanted to replace.

If the consumers were confused by HD, it may mean they don't just look at the benefits of "large, flat, and visually appealing" TVs. Those features are dead obvious. They want to know and see more about its benefits.

Wanting something when they saw the comparison, and knowing how to config/set it at home are also 2 different questions.

 

[StevieP]

Phhhppt... talks about investment and recoup are financial and accounting concepts. Of course it is relevant to know where the $6b expense went to, and whether they are still continuing to make money. The life of PS3 and Blu-ray are not even over yet when people started filing losses under BR.

The losses for the PS3 are ... pretty much at every level conceivable, as charlequin has stated.

Yes and no. It's always the total package that sells a product. The HD contents and the form factors are all important. People do notice the differences in quality, especially for the early adopters. It took aggressive push by all vendors to promote HD. And the ecosystem needs to be complete (from camera to player to programming).

You'd be surprised how true the anecdotal stories of "watching stretched analog broadcasts" were and are still true. I am an enthusiast, therefore I care about things like quality. I am, however, in the vast minority.

The raw power may be there, but the overall computing architecture is still nowhere near where it needs to be if you plan on handling 30-60 fps games.

Regardless on your thoughts of the Cell, its advantages and disadvantages - you have to, at the very least, acknowledge that a vastly limited silicon budget is better spent on an improved GPU (rather than a souped up "double" Cell or something of that sort) and a more balanced overall internal design.

 

[patsu]

The losses for the PS3 are ... pretty much at every level conceivable, as charlequin has stated.

I think he mentioned that H_Prestige has that view.

You'd be surprised how true the anecdotal stories of "watching stretched analog broadcasts" were and are still true. I am an enthusiast, therefore I care about things like quality. I am, however, in the vast minority.

I watched stretched analog broadcasts too because my old Palo Alto home antenna couldn't work properly. Took me a while to get HD content on TV. Anecdotal stories are vivid, but they don't necessarily tell the whole picture. The (real) early adopters were the minority, and they drove the initial market because they understood the benefits. The rest will follow when things become easier to use, and their friends taught them how to get the same thing they saw in the showroom.

Worsestill, while the HDM format war elevated the awareness of BR vs HD-DVD, it also caused confusion in the general public.

 

[DarkChild]

BD certainly was the main reason why Sony stumbled this gen. It was very very financially costly and entire launch was postponed for a year because of it. Now, if they went with DVD9 and every console having HDD, instead of loosing billions on BD, more ram and better GPU, they would win this gen without much doubt.

Games would look better, parity would be achieved and than some, plus it would be cheaper and they would be on market in time.

There is no reason to discuss Sony situation like there is something to argue about, they made stupid mistakes and it cost them whole lot of billions and company reputation. In last 5-6 years Samsung, LG and Panasonic all eclipsed them in electronics, and MS and Nintendo in home console business. That doesn't happen when you make good business decisions.

 

[patsu]

You forgot to look at HD-DVD though. Microsoft and Toshiba have already worked out beautiful demoes of HD-DVD and iHD right before Warner defected. They were going to demo it in that CES. If Sony had lost the HDM war, PS3 would have to fight 360 on the gaming front, *and* catch up with HD-DVD on the movie front. It would be a disaster.

EDIT:

There is no reason to discuss Sony situation like there is something to argue about, they made stupid mistakes and it cost them whole lot of billions and company reputation. In last 5-6 years Samsung, LG and Panasonic all eclipsed them in electronics, and MS and Nintendo in home console business. That doesn't happen when you make good business decisions.

I think you misunderstood my point. I didn't say Sony made good business decisions. In fact, I mentioned that Sony made many mistakes, but lumping all losses to BR is oversimplification.

 

[KageMaru]

The losses for the PS3 are ... pretty much at every level conceivable, as charlequin has stated.

You'd be surprised how true the anecdotal stories of "watching stretched analog broadcasts" were and are still true. I am an enthusiast, therefore I care about things like quality. I am, however, in the vast minority.

You're only wasting your time my friend.

BD certainly was the main reason why Sony stumbled this gen. It was very very financially costly and entire launch was postponed for a year because of it. Now, if they went with DVD9 and every console having HDD, instead of loosing billions on BD, more ram and better GPU, they would win this gen without much doubt.

Games would look better, parity would be achieved and than some, plus it would be cheaper and they would be on market in time.

There is no reason to discuss Sony situation like there is something to argue about, they made stupid mistakes and it cost them whole lot of billions and company reputation. In last 5-6 years Samsung, LG and Panasonic all eclipsed them in electronics, and MS and Nintendo in home console business. That doesn't happen when you make good business decisions.

I don't know about games looking better or hitting parity sooner, but the system itself would be considerably cheaper. I don't think HDD would have been standard if they used DVD either, which would allow them to drop the cost even further.

 

[patsu]

You're only wasting your time my friend.

Then why are you still here my friend ?

 

[gofreak]

In last 5-6 years Samsung, LG and Panasonic all eclipsed them in electronics, and MS and Nintendo in home console business.

I get what you're trying to say, but technically I'm not sure the latter is true. Yes, it's not thanks to PS3, it's a close run thing with MS on the current generation of hardware, but Sony's home console business for the past 5 years has not been - and still is not - 'just' about the current generation of hardware. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I believe in the 'last 5-6 years', Sony's sold over 110m home consoles and close to a billion units of home console software (in the 'sold to retail' sense, of course).

Anyway, carry on...

 

[H_Prestige]

You're only wasting your time my friend.



I don't know about games looking better or hitting parity sooner, but the system itself would be considerably cheaper. I don't think HDD would have been standard if they used DVD either, which would allow them to drop the cost even further.

It would still be more expensive than a 360. More expensive CPU/GPU, XDR RAM, WiFi, and the entire PS2 chipset.

DVD would reduce their BOM, but you're suggesting they launch at a lower retail price as well, so how does that improve the margins? They'd still be selling them at a fat loss.

Sony built a costly machine and BD was only one factor. I really doubt anyone at Sony is thinking "man, if only we put a DVD drive in there instead, things would be so much better".