mashoutposse
Ante Up
I've never seen PS2-level 3D, 1GB+ optical storage, or a true analog stick on many handhelds...
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PSP vs DS - IGN round 2
- Thread starter Lord Error
- Start date
I've never seen PS2-level 3D, 1GB+ optical storage, or a true analog stick on many handhelds...
Kobun Heat
Member
No, you're giving the totally oblivious side. You're not saying anything that's remotely thought-provoking or based on factual information. If you want to actually work to debunk my claims, go right ahead. But if your entire argument against the DS is "We won't know if it's a gimmick until it hits the market," then you can't possibly imagine that you're adding a single thing to this discussion.SolidSnakex said:
Let´see:
Graphical adventure: No problem
Strategy (real time or turns): Perfect
RPG: No problem at all
Fight: Use standard controls
Platformers: Use standard controls
Sports: No problem
With only the touchscreen, I would be agree. But mixing the diferent way of controls (D-Pad, stylus, buttons), you can get new and fun ways to control the game, or sticking with standard ways of controlling it if you don´t find ways of using the stylus.
What about a fight game when you control the movement of you character with the D-Pad and do the attacks drawning in the screen?. I´m sick of the Street Fighter way of control, and with all this combo madnees, I would appreciate something more intuitive of doing my attacks.
This is an old example, but drawning your strategies in real time in a sport game seems really fun to me.
And overall what I want to point is that as a developer, I would be glad of this oportunity. Games are something more than "sport" games, "fighting" games, "arcade" games. A game is a game, an entertainment, you shouldn´t focus on "how to do exactly the same thing, but with a touchscreen". you should be thinking on "How I can use a touchscreen to get a good game", that thing will be the key for the success or not of DS.
It´s exactly the same thing than a "NES-Level 2D graphis, X+ MB of cartridge storage and speakers", except that at least Game Boy was something new over Game & Watch systems and so.
Don´t be delusional, PSP is the same thing than a GB, GBA and GBA 2 when Nintendo launches it, only the logical next step. Is not bad because is something people want, neither something new or original.
Kobun Heat
Member
First off, I am a jaded malcontent in the sense that I can't stand how so much of video game development has stagnated. I was really weirded out when somebody told me the DS was stylus-based, but a few sessions with Made In Wario (and then a few more sessions, and then I pretty much took over the machine and fended off all oncomers with a rolled-up newspaper) made me realize how fucking hilarious a stylus-based game could be, in a way that was markedly different than what we have today.Tellaerin said:
Again, I'm no Neutron Night set to mindlessly denigrate anything over two years old. I am a sucker for old-school. But I think that's because I'm a sucker for simple gameplay as well. In fact, if your favorite genre is old-school shooters, then the DS might very well end up playing to your tastes more than the PSP does.
Don´t worry, I understood you well. But my little joke had a hidden idea. I have played DS, I have played Made in Wario, Baby Mario and Pac Pix (I am unsure of the name), among others. And I can tell you right now that if you are looking for simple control scheme, you will buy a Nintendo DS.
Kobun Heat
Member
Actually no. What I'm saying is that my pet peeve is when people assume that the only video games that will ever exist are updates and sequels to what we already have, and thus all future video game systems should be designed exactly like current ones but with better graphics.kaching said:
i think the ds' touchscreen controls offer some interesting possibilities, but i'm not convinced that they're simpler than conventional controls.
i guess you'll have games like pac pix or wario ware that purely use the stylus, and there the touchscreen will have the benefit of being perfectly obvious. but simpler than the gba's crosskey and d-pad? i don't see it. they will have the advantage of putting gamers and nongamers "back at the starting line," which will certainly help multiplayer applications.
but games where you have to use the d-pad and the stylus simultaneously seem at least as complicated and fidgety as, say, console fps' that require you to use two analog sticks. i'm also concerned about using a stylus on a machine you only grip from one side - has anyone played a free-floating unit? and those games that require substantial use of the d-pad, the face buttons, and the stylus will be decidedly more complex from a purely physical perspective than most console games.
one of the reasons i call the ds design "confused" is that it can't decide whether it wants to be newly simple or newly complex, or whether it wants to appeal to alienated non-gamers or superjaded supergamers. it won't be easy or necessarily possible for it to do both. ultimately, of course, innovation and complexity will come down to the software rather than the hardware. and i wouldn't expect software to provide a consistent identity.
i guess you'll have games like pac pix or wario ware that purely use the stylus, and there the touchscreen will have the benefit of being perfectly obvious. but simpler than the gba's crosskey and d-pad? i don't see it. they will have the advantage of putting gamers and nongamers "back at the starting line," which will certainly help multiplayer applications.
but games where you have to use the d-pad and the stylus simultaneously seem at least as complicated and fidgety as, say, console fps' that require you to use two analog sticks. i'm also concerned about using a stylus on a machine you only grip from one side - has anyone played a free-floating unit? and those games that require substantial use of the d-pad, the face buttons, and the stylus will be decidedly more complex from a purely physical perspective than most console games.
one of the reasons i call the ds design "confused" is that it can't decide whether it wants to be newly simple or newly complex, or whether it wants to appeal to alienated non-gamers or superjaded supergamers. it won't be easy or necessarily possible for it to do both. ultimately, of course, innovation and complexity will come down to the software rather than the hardware. and i wouldn't expect software to provide a consistent identity.
For the person who was complaining about how dpad control is better than the stylus, is it not feasible to believe that some games won't necessarily make use of the stylus, and we'll also have some games that just use the face buttons and d-pad?
A stylus is awesome for games like RPGs and strategy games. And I doubt Nintendo is going to force companies to use the stylus in a platforming or fighting game.
A stylus is awesome for games like RPGs and strategy games. And I doubt Nintendo is going to force companies to use the stylus in a platforming or fighting game.
mashoutposse
Ante Up
Yes, I am severely lacking in imagination and creativity. Maybe connectivity willrevolutionize gaming.
Oh, wait.
Anyway, we're dealing with a very different Nintendo than we have in the past. The old Nintendo created their best innovations out of a certain level of 'need' -- these innovations were usually solutions that made their previously impractical game concepts feasible. The game idea almost always came before the invention.
Now, Nintendo seems to just be cooking up answers to problems that don't exist simply to maintain their 'innovator' status. They "innovate," then think up killer apps that use the new features, when they should be doing things the other way around. The Nintendo of old thought up groundbreaking game ideas, and innovated simply to make those ideas happen. A far, far smarter way to go about things.
Bluemercury said:
I think Nintendo is in a precarious position here. If they launch the DS this November then you can't realistically expect the GBA2 for quite some time after that. And what if the DS turns out to be a bust and the PSP takes off. Will people even care about the GBA2?
I think the DS will do just fine but Nintendo flooding the market with the DS and the GBA2 very close together would just alienate a lot of people.
mattx5--That's how I feel. The stylus is only as good as it's implementation. Some games like Metriod Prime Hunters don't look too hot for stylus use. But then you have games Pac-Pix or that surgery game that Atlus is making that just seem perfectly suited for this style of control.
As long as developers don't feel obligated to use the stylus for everything, I think gamers will be happy with the feature and we will see some ideas that would not have been possible with the old GB.
As long as developers don't feel obligated to use the stylus for everything, I think gamers will be happy with the feature and we will see some ideas that would not have been possible with the old GB.
I think this is precisely why Nintendo is keeping the Game Boy name off of DS; if it tanks, the GB brand is still untarnished, and the GBA2 can be deployed at will. If the DS succeeds, we'll still see a GBA2, but not for a while.Lisa Lashes said:
Even as someone who is interested in the DS and a fan of Nintendo as a whole, IAWTP.mashoutposse said:
human5892 said:
Good point. But they are using GBA b/comp as a selling point so there will be some bad taste left there if the DS falters.
EDIT: I'm all for GBA b/comp on the DS because I don't own a GBA and it just makes the DS that much more enticing to me.
Jarrod: I'm just saying here that if the PSP takes off and the DS falters, people might just start seeing the PSP as the next "Game Boy" and might not really care that much about the GBA2.
A game like Pac Pix would be impossible for a D-Pad, I don´t see myself drawning anything with a pad. I could use an analog for something like Magic Pengel, and even so, the touchscreen would be much better, specially since I have to draw Pac-Man and the walls to avoid he hoes out the screen, that won´t be fun with a pad.
Wario Ware had minigames that were perfectly suited for the touchscreen. You could slice things on the screen in the sense , or draw kanji words, things that are not easy to do with a d-pad- That is why I say that is not about doing the same with touchscreen, but creating new things to profit it.
I saw one Nintendo guy playing a free floating unit. The hand was extended over the base, with one finger free for the D-Pad, the other hand had the stylus. I didn´t notice any problem with it and it shouldn´t if the system is not heavy (and I think is not).
A new interface open oportunities to new things, for good or bad. Nobody can deny that. Is up to developers profit this, and up to Nintendo to guide them with its own games.
I was convinced with the demos, is my only reason to defend Nintendo DS. As simple as I loved the little demos I tested. That makes me thing the way I think
i do think there's a real problem that the ds is trying to solve: controls in most games nowadays are complicated enough to alienate a lot of people. my sister loves mario games, but she has no interest in negotiating all the knobs and buttons and immediate 3d complexity of mario 64 or mario sunshine.
but honestly i think there's something farcical in giving us a machine with two screens and a control layout for people with three hands and telling us it's simpler. anyone besides nintendo would be laughed out of the industry.
but honestly i think there's something farcical in giving us a machine with two screens and a control layout for people with three hands and telling us it's simpler. anyone besides nintendo would be laughed out of the industry.
Kobun Heat
Member
I can understand how GBA/GCN connectivity might fall into this category, but what about wireless control? What about a folding handheld that protects the screen? These were courtesy of the 'new Nintendo' - these were solutions to problems that didn't exist?mashoutposse said:
You're trying to extrapolate an entirely new philosophy out of connectivity's critical failure, and it's just not going to work unless you can come up with other examples.
drohne said:
I thought like that at first, but how many games are using every feature? I think the two screens is practical solution in lieu of a large lcd screen. The touch screen just wouldn't work with one GBA screen while Nintendo would really like to avoid the larger screen for cost reasons. Some stuff doesn't work with the dual screens of course, but hopefully lessons have been learned sense E3 and things will be sorted out after the first generation of software has gone by us.
I also like the symmetry of the face buttons and D-pad. That's first time I've been aware of a company actually trying to do something for left handers.
mashoutposse
Ante Up
Kobun Heat said:
Neither wireless control nor the clamshell design are 'innovations.' They aren't new ideas.
Kobun Heat
Member
It's funny you bring up the 'three hands' quip, because that's exactly what I kept hearing about the N64's controller design. And the addition of the analog stick made 3D gameplay far more intuitive.drohne said:
By the way, I did hold a free-floating DS and, while it didn't power up, I sat there with it and prodded at the screen with the stylus while holding it in just my left hand. It was pretty comfortable - the width of it means you can stretch your fingers around the back to support it. It's roughly as comfortable as holding up a Game Boy - even with that, you need to set your elbows down every now and again, or just take a break.
I wouldn't count on an aging form of input - that has been used extensively for years and that you admit the software development community who have capitalize on it for interface design have not been lacking in creativity or imagination in its implementation - to bring a significant unknown quantity to the table for the NDS.Kobun Heat said:
Kobun Heat
Member
Well, what of the vaunted "old Nintendo's" ideas were brand new, never-before-used-in-any-context-ever concepts?mashoutposse said:
At any rate, show me the folding handheld game console before the SP. Show me the RF-based long-range wireless controller on a video game console before the Wavebird. It's not about coming up with entirely new concepts, it's about having the insight to bring them into video gaming and make them work really well.
ge-man said:
I've heard many "lefties" complain that the stylus aspect of the DS isn't lefty friendly though.
Someone in this topic said that if the DS fails then he'd be cool with that and give Nintendo credit for trying. I wholeheartedly agree with this and like the fact that Nintendo has the balls to go for something different than the norm with the DS.
People also forget that you have the right to not buy the damn thing if you don't like it. I don't see Iwata holding a gun to your heads.
AndreasNystrom
Member
its funny how they can compare the price, when no one has announced what
pricetag there will be.
pricetag there will be.
SolidSnakex
Member
Lisa Lashes said:
People also have to right to be critical of the system, just as people have been about the PSP and how it's a "port machine".
Kobun Heat
Member
What I'm saying in that quote is that saying that a touch-screen control isn't going to work for certain game genres is wrong on two counts.kaching said:
First, the DS doesn't ONLY have touch screen control - it has a SNES-style button setup which means it's just as functional for playing Street Fighter Eleventeen as, say, the PS2 controller.
Second, you'd be assuming that the games on the DS are just going to be exactly like the games we have now, only you circle the word Start on the menu screen to start the game instead of pressing Start. I don't have to talk about this conceptually because the announced game lineup already kicks this theory directly in the sack, from Wario Ware to Pac-Pix to Caduceus. Brand new types of games on the DS aren't just a pipe dream, they're really in development.
Kobun Heat
Member
Do they smoke crack rock? The system's symmetrical! Sure, they might have to use the buttons instead of the D-pad, but that's a better deal than most systems give to lefties.Lisa Lashes said:
I hope that's all there is to it, speaking as a leftie. It's bad enough that I'll have to use the four face buttons as a D-pad if I need to hold the stylus too.Kobun Heat said:
I normally wouldn't care (I haven't been bothered by any console controller because of my left-handedness) but if I'm going to be drawing and writing things, my right hand is virtually useless.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Nintendo's own Game & Watch had dual screens, twenty years ago, and I'm not even sure if they were the first to use that. There were so many bizarrely designed handhelds back then that I've lost the track. As for the wireless controller, I'm almost 100% positive that Logitech and other third parties had wireless controllers way before Wavebird was made.
Dragona Akehi
Retired
human5892 said:
Yes I can understand this sentiment. I'm also left-handed (to a fault, give me a right handed can opener and I'll probably kill you with it,) and I can see a few problems coming with the DS.
You have to remember, we lefties are ALSO hardwired to use our left thumb as the "DPAD/Analogue" digit. I remember playing the virtual boy (ha ha) and thinking "neat I can press buttons with my left thumb now instead!!! Hooray for lefties!" and then lo and behold: I can't use my right thumb for a Dpad worth shit.
For games like Atlus' new surgical adventure, things'll be fine. I'll have all the dexterity I need for using the stylus. However, if you have to use the right buttons as a Dpad for, say a shooter or something, then I, at least will be shit out of luck.
For righties this won't be so much of a problem: they can use the Dpad like they've always done with their left hand, and stylus with their naturally more dextrous right.
Though I'm quite excited by the possiblities of the DS' stylus, I'm praying for not that many titles that'll require a "dpad" and the stylus combination.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
Since DS is only their fourth truly different portable system (OK, I'm not counting Pokémon Mini) that's exaggerating. Pocket and SP are little different than the SNES Jr. or PSOne. And even for the time from GBC to GBA being short, I think more of the blame has to go to GBC being a bizarrely late and minor step. For them to have continued with it until 2003 would be more reason for complaint.jarrod said:
Dragona Akehi
Retired
Because we've been hardwired into USING the left DPAD. The original Fami controller (and just about every arcade) is designed with Righties in mind. Use your less powerful hand for directionals, and use your better hand to mash buttons.
We've adjusted to that. I know I can't use a right placed dpad. A right placed analogue stick yes, but a dpad? It's very difficult due to the precision required.
We've adjusted to that. I know I can't use a right placed dpad. A right placed analogue stick yes, but a dpad? It's very difficult due to the precision required.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
It's just like if we righties were forced to using the right thumb for the d-pad. We could adjust, but it would be a nasty experience at first.MoccaJava said:
Dragona Akehi
Retired
But in fact it would be much easier for you do to so, since your right thumb has more dexterity than your left.
It'd be more like, try using your LEFT hand to press buttons. Think about how backwards that'd seem to YOU.
It'd be more like, try using your LEFT hand to press buttons. Think about how backwards that'd seem to YOU.
Dragona Akehi said:But in fact it would be much easier for you do to so, since your right thumb has more dexterity than your left.
It'd be more like, try using your LEFT hand to press buttons. Think about how backwards that'd seem to YOU.
Its not hard to adjust to. Many have already done movement on the other side(buttons) with many games. dpad for buttons is unusual but even that happens in some games. Left or right i see people handling it fine. Its not like you are sewing. Game controllers are very user freindly.