Alx
Member
Your comment immediately made me think of this movie.
Too bad they cut just before the "je vous rappelle que vous êtes juste toléré parmi nous".
Quenelle, new nazi salute or just anti-establishment?
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Your comment immediately made me think of this movie.
Too bad they cut just before the "je vous rappelle que vous êtes juste toléré parmi nous".
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
The quenelle is a typical French dish* (hence why there is no English translation) that has a somewhat phallic shape. Dieudonné coined the expression 'mettre une quenelle' (to put a quenelle [up someone's ass]) for that reason.
*This is what the original quenelle looks like:
Phallic? It looks like Hot Pocket Soup.
Like I'm a catholic atheist?
Skellig Gra
Member
Right I already responded to that. The point is the same though. It was based on a salute that had already existed so its not inherently anti-semetic either.
Me_Marcadet
Member
They are not shitty. You could insult dieudonne as long as you can but don't say his show are bad because they are not. He really is a genius and master of black humor, cynicism and self-deprecating humor. His acting is really great too, he's a great clown.
Exactly, I think many of his views are despicable, but the more I read about this more I am appalled at the government and judiciary trying censor him. I would probably donate to a defense fund if there was any way to appeal the ban they have on his shows.
kurisu_1974
Banned
Are you for real?
SecretMoblin
Member
Frankly, the "Shoananas" thing is totally shocking to me.
How in any way is this seen as a cute, kitschy, funny thing?
How in any way is this seen as a cute, kitschy, funny thing?
Skellig Gra
Member
I think he doesn't realize being Jewish is also an ethnic group. Pretty common mistake from what I've seen.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
Or he's playing a semantics game with being Jewish vs being a Jew.
CornBurrito
Member
To be fair, a lot of Jewish people also can't see the distinction between those two and consequently look down on non-religious Jews. I've experienced that personally.
My Hebrew school taught that Judaism wasn't an ethnic group until the Nazis attempted (and succeeded) in making it one. Don't know how true that was. But the people at my school certainly didn't consider people who converted out of Judaism to be Jews any longer. So they clearly didn't see it as an ethnic group.
Jag
Member
I think most ethnic and religious groups have people all over the spectrum from 'true believers' to 'cultural followers'. Most American Jews fall into the latter category.
Skellig Gra
Member
I'm not surprised by that at all. But genetics didn't really start taking off until the middle of the last century anyway so its not even something people probably thought about that much.
Genetics don't define ethnic groups
Skellig Gra
Member
DNA certainly does.
CornBurrito
Member
It does get a bit annoying though, because a lot of the cultural practices are religious. I think a lot of people just don't see it as such because the prayers are done in Hebrew. So someone like me, who wants nothing to do with the religion, is pretty much shut out from the majority of the cultural practices. And then I get shit on for being a "self hating" Jew.
it seems people are pointing out that you don't know what you are talking about, and if that is true you should just quit.
Skellig Gra
Member
It's history + science. The Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group. Since Judaism is one of the world's oldest active religions its origins go all the way back to the time of the Fertile Crescent. It's obviously not true 100% of the time since non-jewish born people can come in. This is a bad analogy but think of those tribes you hear of in the rainforests who never come in contact with other societies. They all have the same ethnic make up and have the same religion. Same concept. There is a core of Jewish people who have never married/had children outside the religion.
Valls and Dieudonné are both racists, towards different groups.
Varg Vikernes is a fucking neo nazi and a murderer.
ComputerMKII
Banned
It sort of pains me to say this, but I agree. Dieudonné is a born comedian and a great humorist, even other famous French (and not antisemitic) humorists said it. I do appreciate his shows and I even smile at his most vile jokes - with much embarrassment. That said, I've never claimed to have a good taste in humour. I try to make for it by not giving him any money.
But that's just how it is - Being a great artist is not incompatible with being an asshole or even a criminal (e.g. Céline, Sade, Varg Vikernes, etc.) but it's a whole other debate.
Oh well that's obviously not cool. But the "up your ass this far" interpretation of the gesture otoh...
ComputerMKII
Banned
Aaaaaand banned again.
Dude Abides
Banned
The French love Jerry Lewis so I take assessments of comedic merit from Frenchmen with a mountain of sel.
Shameful.
dripdripsplash
Member
So much for freedom of speech.
Holy Order Sol
Member
Richard Pryor tho <3
casablanca
Member
Maybe.
Some protected them for sur tho : http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/moroccan-jews-pay-homage-to-protector-1.148647
Morocco was a French protectorate at the time of the war, and Mohammed V rejected orders set out by France's collaborationist Vichy government as early as 1940. He refused to make the 200,000 Jews then living in Morocco wear yellow stars, as they did in France.
"There are no Jews in Morocco. There are only subjects," the king is reported to have said.
This guy* and his "anti-establishment" (that even sounds like code) fans sound like real pieces of work, but I don't think feeding his persecution complex by censoring him is going to have a constructive result.
*Even if I grant that this guy actually isn't an anti-Semite and this is all a hilarious piece of performance art, it seems pretty clear that many of his followers aren't in on the joke. It reminds me of how one of the reasons Dave Chappelle quit his show is because too many of his fans were enjoying the racial satire without the satire part.
*Even if I grant that this guy actually isn't an anti-Semite and this is all a hilarious piece of performance art, it seems pretty clear that many of his followers aren't in on the joke. It reminds me of how one of the reasons Dave Chappelle quit his show is because too many of his fans were enjoying the racial satire without the satire part.
Denying the Holocaust or anything associated with Nazism can't be tolerated. Doing such things outside memorials is also vile. They're right to ban him.
"created" by a blatant antisemitist (when asked if he was anti-zionist or antisemitic, he answered "it's more complicated than that")
used in front of places evoking the holocaust with no link towards Israel or its politics
looks like a nazi salute, more precisely the hindered nazi salute from Dr Strangelove (if you want to avoid controversy, you might want to choose another gesture)
so...
***
About this, I read an interesting comment from a French/Tunisian left-winger who likes Dieudonné. Basically, his point was that French pupils were taught about the holocaust very early in school, but we know a lot less about the war crimes that were committed by France (slavery, colonialism etc.)
Basically I get why you could read it as being anti-establishment. I still think it's a mistake.
used in front of places evoking the holocaust with no link towards Israel or its politics
looks like a nazi salute, more precisely the hindered nazi salute from Dr Strangelove (if you want to avoid controversy, you might want to choose another gesture)
so...
***
About this, I read an interesting comment from a French/Tunisian left-winger who likes Dieudonné. Basically, his point was that French pupils were taught about the holocaust very early in school, but we know a lot less about the war crimes that were committed by France (slavery, colonialism etc.)
Basically I get why you could read it as being anti-establishment. I still think it's a mistake.
Me_Marcadet
Member
I don't have a problem with people calling Dieudonne an anti sémite or a paranoid complotist. I have a problem with people saying he got no talent and has lost "it". He clearly is a very talented comedian who write a lot of shows (almost one every year) and you just need to watch some very neutral show to see he is talented .
When he talks about cancer or daily life he is really great. For the more political but still PC stuff, there's also his parody of african dictators, he nails it lol
You could avoid all the complotist jokes and provocations and still have a lot of fun watching his shows.
Yeah I skimmed through wiki and it seems collaborators included leaders in Palestine, an Iraqi government that temporarily overthrew the pro-British regime and some people in French North Africa.
Putting aside the disagreement over whether the state should be able to pick and choose what speech is criminal and what is not. They are banning his performance a priori, before he even has the chance to say anything. It is shameful, It's a violation of even a basic concept of civil liberties and the freedom of speech. Also I don't think he has been accused of doing anything untoward outside a holocaust memorial.
Any performance will be filled with hate, as they have been with in the past. How is performing a nazi salute, or behaviour that glorifies Nazism civil? Every time this man says what he says, he disrespects not just Jews but anyone who lost thier lives to the Nazis.
From what I have read, he has said some ignorant things and spouted conspiracy theories about jews. But I haven't seen anything that suggests he glorifies Nazism. I'd like to see your sources.
Regardless he should be able to say whatever he wants as long as he doesn't attempt to instigate violence. Government censorship is a shameful and ineffective way to combat this kind of speech.
fuck that. jerry lewis is great
The Quenelle is glorifying Nazism? Literally the subject of the thread. I'll find you more examples.
Edit. Openly insulting Holocaust victims in the link below.
http://www.voanews.com/content/reuters-france-may-ban-comedian-for-hate-speech/1818573.html
Holy Order Sol
Member
It really is a shame especially when considering that the rest of what passes for stand-up comedy in France these days fucking sucks.
There is absolutely no evidence that he meant the Quenelle to be a Nazi salute or any evidence that he glorifies Nazism in that article. He's guilty of plenty of distasteful things, but nothing that would warrant the government silencing him. Giving him attention and making him into a martyr.
cripterion
Member
It's a bunch of horseshit. I think some dudes do it thinking that it's anti jew or something but it's not about that originally. It's just a relaxed way of saying stick it up your ass.
Wow just wow
Not a diehard fan no, but enjoying this huge fuckup. Really shows just how much our government is ruled by morons when they make this their number one priority.
For the record, I have never done it and I'm not the type to post even pics of myself on FB, while I think Dieudonné might go too far in his speech (even though it's still in the context of a show), the reaction, the government & media making this such a focus is just facepalming. Our minister of justice was called a monkey and told to go back to her tree and eat bananas and the political class didn't go apeshit about it.
Recently, the president made ill comments (he thought it was a joke) about Algeria in front of a jewish crowd and that too didn't brought out such a scandal.
As for Manuel Valls? lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTZn7aqBVQc
Wow just wow
Not a diehard fan no, but enjoying this huge fuckup. Really shows just how much our government is ruled by morons when they make this their number one priority.
For the record, I have never done it and I'm not the type to post even pics of myself on FB, while I think Dieudonné might go too far in his speech (even though it's still in the context of a show), the reaction, the government & media making this such a focus is just facepalming. Our minister of justice was called a monkey and told to go back to her tree and eat bananas and the political class didn't go apeshit about it.
Recently, the president made ill comments (he thought it was a joke) about Algeria in front of a jewish crowd and that too didn't brought out such a scandal.
As for Manuel Valls? lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTZn7aqBVQc
Lmao I'm guessing you're a diehard quenelle fan?
He's well known for his staunch anti Semitic views and he's doing a false Nazi salute, he has openly mocked the Holocaust remembrance as memorial pornagraphy and he's shared the stage with Jean Marie Le Pen. Yet you don't think he glorifies Nazism?
Obviously not with his avatar.
cripterion
Member
I think you're ill informed. He likes to stir up shit, that's all. People that know him well (his ex-best friend who also happens to be a jew) know full well he's not a racist.
OMG, that's a racist sign too!
Also, for people that think the Nazi sign is banned or forbidden in France, it definitely isn't. Extreme right wing parties do marches and do it without problem in front of police. Moronic soccer fans do it too, most notably die hard ones from PSG which is actually quite ironic considering their team is owned by Qatari.
Freezie KO
Banned
Whether or not it originated with an anti-Semite or just another European obsessed with Israel, it's pretty clearly used as an anti-Semitic gesture now. Unless you just think it's coincidence that people are doing it in front of Auschwitz.
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