Quenelle, new nazi salute or just anti-establishment?
- Thread starter Roi
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Perhaps a small number of people are using it for that purpose. Yes, but there is no evidence that Dieudonne made it up with those intentions or that the majority of the people who use it mean anything other than a "fuck you" or an anti-establishment signal.
This is a good example of why it is stupid to ban the Nazi salute in the first place. It's better that these types of things are out in the open to be criticized, but now you have racist people commandeering a non-racist meme for their own purposes.
Freezie KO
Banned
There's no evidence a guy obsessed with Israel, who has appeared on stage with Holocaust deniers, who has degraded Holocaust memorial as porn, who's dressed up as Orthodox Jews and done the Nazi salute, who's been charged multiple times with hate-related crime, etc etc etc. intended it this way?
If it walks, talks, quacks, has feathers, and keeps talking about Jews through his beak, he's a duck. I'm not for banning the Nazi salute. I just think Dieudonne would be throwing it up if it wasn't banned.
He's been doing that sign for years and in 99% of the time is meant as a humoristic replacement for the middle finger.
I don't know if he intended it to be anti jew or whatever nor do I care, but he certainly didn't present it as such. And until recently no one in the media cared if it was antisemitic or not.
BaronLundi
Member
The amount of delusional people in this thread is staggering. It's as if they needed proper endorsement from some official antisemitic institution before believing anything could be antisemitic.
- Hmmm I see your only taking jabs at Jews and Shoah victims. You make your audience laugh at a man you put on stage with auschwitz clothes and a yellow star dancing to the tune of a kiddy pop song. You're producing a movie financed by Iran called "the antisemite". You give a price to the most infamous french negationist and to Bachar el Assad and Hezbollah. You ask France biggest antisemite and ex-leader of the national front to be the godfather of your child. You accuse Jews of being slavers and the ruin of Africa. Might it be that you don't like Jews ?
- oh no I just don't like zionists.
- oh ok. so you say you aren't. And I see you don't have your official antisemetic card. This must obviously be some kind of mistake then. Right, thanks for clearing that up then.
Dieudonniste: either you're a cynic, or not terribly smart.
- Hmmm I see your only taking jabs at Jews and Shoah victims. You make your audience laugh at a man you put on stage with auschwitz clothes and a yellow star dancing to the tune of a kiddy pop song. You're producing a movie financed by Iran called "the antisemite". You give a price to the most infamous french negationist and to Bachar el Assad and Hezbollah. You ask France biggest antisemite and ex-leader of the national front to be the godfather of your child. You accuse Jews of being slavers and the ruin of Africa. Might it be that you don't like Jews ?
- oh no I just don't like zionists.
- oh ok. so you say you aren't. And I see you don't have your official antisemetic card. This must obviously be some kind of mistake then. Right, thanks for clearing that up then.
Dieudonniste: either you're a cynic, or not terribly smart.
He's a rabble-rouser and a comedian whose made some antisemitic jokes and statements in order to shock people. And no that isn't evidence that the Quenelle is a secret Nazi salute. This is a seven year old meme that no one ever even brought up the potential that it was antisemitic until it was used by a few racists recently.
BaronLundi
Member
Oh yeah, that terrible context where it jus so happen that you're making this sign in front a synagogue, at the "Rue du Four" ("Oven street" in French, you'll notice the subtlety), shoah memorials, Ann Frank museums, jewish schools, jewish bakeries, concentration camps.
Silly context making everyting confused !
But it hasn't, can't you tell the difference ?
Maybe you've seen this one then (from his "political" campaign for 2009 european election) ?
For an Europe liberated from censorship, communautarism, speculators and OTAN.
Anti-Zionist list.
If you know anything about pre-WWII history, you know who speculators refers to. Notice the self-proclaimed antisemite and right wing ideologist Alain Soral (and the token mad rabbi).
Actually I have, but that predates his paranoid antisemitic u-turn (around 2003/2004 I guess). But I like to laugh and not vomit so I'll pass now. Reports are unanimous on the fact that there's hardly any targets in his latest show besides Jews though. Even some of his die-hard fans are made uneasy by this obvious obsession.
And contrary to the bullshit some of his defense force are laughably trying to have us believe, this gesture has been construed as antisemitic since it's gained some publicity (i.e. around 2009 for said european elections). Moreover, and again, fore someone who'd have us believe it's not antisemitic why does he do absolutely NOTHING to avoid this terrible misunderstanding ?
Part of his audience perfectly understands the double speak (which has always been a staple of racists and extreme right-wingers). The rest are gullible at best.
Freezie KO
Banned
You'd think this was the first time anyone's used coded language...
"Oh, I'm just curious as to whether or not Obama was raised in Kenya. I have no ulterior motives or beliefs..."
cripterion
Member
The man likes to stir shit up. Feel free to believe he's a racist asshole. He's still entertaining and funny during his show. I find that very disturbing that in a so called free country we tell people what/what not to enjoy.
My point about the gesture was that it could have been "un bras d'honneur" or the finger made in the places you described and it would send the same message, so why focus on the Quenelle? Why even focus on Dieudonné at all? They're giving him free publicity and turning this into a shit show.
The likes of Zemmour don't seem to bother, even though this guy writes books and is on public television. He's got his audience, but I wouldn't be caught telling people not to read his stuff or watch his shows.
Exactly.
Dieudonné and his supporters aren't fooling anyone with two brain cells to rub together with this anti-zionist or anti-establishment cover story. After everything he has said and done there is no ambiguity.
As for freedom of speech, when it's being used to whip up anti-Jewish hatred and Holocaust denial that will just lead to more hatred and violence then I have no problem with someone like Dieudonné being silenced. France has enough of a problem as it is with anti-semitic attitudes without this cretin stirring things up.
cripterion
Member
So the Quenelle is an anti-semitic gesture because Baronlundi and EmiPrime said so and people who watch Dieudonné shows are morons because it's not to your taste. Right...
I do agree that this dude is a fucking tool.
How is he silenced exactly? Everyone is talking about him, more than ever. He'll just be more popular than before.
Not only forbidding a show to take place is a dangerous precedent, but it's just doing him favors. The media and politics are just stirring shit up, not the guy. That's the best thing that could have happened to him.
BaronLundi
Member
Where did I say you were not free to enjoy him ? You can enjoy whomever you want. I hear Joe le corbeau is a very talented cartoonist and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion a very entertaining book. You can also think whatever the hell you want.
You've probably missed the post where I said I found the banning of his shows utterly stupid and counter-productive on top of being illegal. And yes, no need for publicity anymore. I'm certainly not thanking Valls for doing what he did because he's making this asshole a martyr and gives credit to some imaginary Jewry pulling the strings. I won't enjoy all the extremists (whatever the religion) who will now have a (semi)legal ground and a field day to call for the ban of anything that displeases them.
I wished we would able to ignore the asshole which I did until now despite the itch (I live nearby and very much enjoy directing his fans who ask me for directions to the nearest synagogue).
cripterion
Member
Fair enough, must have misread your post then.
In all honesty quite tired of it all too, it's like everywhere now : on the news, talks shows, fucking RSS feed. And now we're in for another round with alleged affairs of the president lol.
If Dieudonné is to your taste, that says a lot about you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fLQb60xKL4
cripterion
Member
Well, feel free to think what you like lol, you sound quite ignorant yourself.
I agree his notoriety is only going to rise now. It's a bit late doing it now but I don't have a moral problem with his shows being forbidden.
What's that supposed to prove exactly? :lol:
Are you gay and offended by a joke? That's way, way less disturbing or false that what was said everywhere in the media during the gay marriage "debate". That shit was pure hate speech and was allowed and defined as "opinions".
SketchTheArtist
Member
cripterion
Member
This whole Dieudonné debacle will probably boost his popularity to earn him a spot as a prime minister in the future...
If satirising gay pride parade as being men sucking each other off in public and a man at the bottom of a slide shitting into a jar is acceptable to you, again it says a lot to me about you.
For those who don't know, Dieudonné believes that equal marriage is a zionist plot and he intends to make a film about it.
Those dastardly gays and Jews are in cahoots with each other! Dieudonné certainly knows his audience...
For those who don't know, Dieudonné believes that equal marriage is a zionist plot and he intends to make a film about it.
Those dastardly gays and Jews are in cahoots with each other! Dieudonné certainly knows his audience...
casablanca
Member
Thank you.
cripterion
Member
i_am_ben
running_here_and_there
you're adorable.
Yo Frenchies, your friendly german neighbours here, seriously considering some good ole' Blitzkrieg here for this shit. But before we'll do that, I'd like to to ask if there's some truth to the claim that Dieudonne was actually encouraging the posing-in-front-of-auschwitz-thing.
SketchTheArtist
Member
I think so, but it's not for what most people think. I like Dieudo but he's clumsy sometimes and really easy to misread him if you don't pay attention.
He hates that a lot of public and political figures often use the Shoah as a mean to win an argument. And in Europe and the US, it is the most used Human Tragedy to makes films, docs and other media out of.
His stance is that he sees it as ''My tragedy is better than yours.'' To him, the number of deaths or the size of the event is irrelevant. All genocide and mass-murders should be studied, talked about and remembered. Everyone suffers.
So yeah, it's clumsy but there's a reasoning behind it.
BaronLundi
Member
Yo, could you start by the south this time ?
And I don't think he actively encouraged this particularly disgusting set up, at least publicly. I don't know. He surely encourages them in general though, congratulates those who do it (and cashes in a lot of money in related merchandising). And he has a "hall of quenelles" in "his" theater, including pictures taken in in front of jewish sites and in Israel.
This one is in there for example:
I think we can safely say he condones the practice.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
I think his argument was that he was anti-Zionist not anti-Jewish. In other words he's attacking the political establishment. I think that is where the anti-establishment angle comes from.
However, in actuality, he and other people might not really make that distinction.
The last one pretty sure they are brushing the haters off or "get that dirt off your shoulder" seeing as how they are posing with Jay-Z.
Synth_floyd
Banned
Anti-zionism doesn't necessarily mean anti-semitic...but it usually does. Like how states rights in the US usually was a way for racists to frame segregation as a legitimate political position.
Freezie KO
Banned
Especially when you hear the tone of the discussion. Apartheid! New Nazis! Genocide!
Of course, no word from these human rights advocates on Sudan or the CAR or Kenya or...
Nope that's illuminati (aka international jewish cabal) affiliate jay-z showing his newfound connections which will allow for the covert white genocide to proceed unabated.
Haven't you heard? He's a Nazi, Marxist, Socialist, and capitalist. Somehow Obama can be all of these things! Quite amazing!
Nazi?
I dont get involved in debates on GAF regarding Israel but it seems that the supporters everywhere are the same, simply deny Israel's crime and point fingers at others.
Freezie KO
Banned
All sides of the issue have committed plenty of crimes. But when guys like Dieudonne pretend to be pro-human rights, yet jump into bed with Holocaust deniers and march with Islamists against cartoonists, it's clear what the motivation is. And it shouldn't come as a surprise when you combine centuries of latent anti-Semitism with the vitriolic hyperbole that comes from the "Anti-Zionist" movement. As if Europe had no other problems to deal with than Israel...
Me_Marcadet
Member
Dieudonne is a comedian and the things in his shows are just jokes and acting, don't take it too seriously. I don't believe any of dieudonne conspiracies but I love his shows.
He is a master troll and know how to use humor to speak about some terrible things like the people using the holocaust to make money or gain politics advantage, or how France and africans dictators are butchering people.
His shows are clearly not for everybody and you should have some notions about the character before watching them.
What I don't like is people using condescending tone about his public and telling evryone the man is not funny and a nazi. That is clearly wrong and completely ignorant. I don't have any issue with his detractors as long as they do know what are they talking about.
I really want to read the next Marc-Édouard Nabe book who seems to destroy Dieudonne and Soral.
I also would love to see a comedian as vile and cynical as Dieudonne who could take a fight with him and put him to shame.
When he talked about DSK in one of his show it was hiliarous. Yeah, it's filled with antisemistic jokes but the political satire is one of the best I ever saw.
As long as he don't condone violence and just stay the sad clown he is, I have no problem with him.
cripterion
Member
I know,lol
I'm not sure if I understand the Dieudonné Defense Force (on French websites). They seem to use three arguments:
- The quenelle is a funny and innocent gesture that means "up yours" and/or is anti-establishment. It has no antisemitic subtext and it should not be interpreted in the context of Dieudonnés political views.
- Manuel Valls and the "fascist" French government try to politicize the gesture to distract the public from their incompetence and their inability to solve real problems. The censorship is evil.
- The political uproar is orchestrated by a group of Jewish (Zionist?) organizations that are close to Valls (especially Licra and Crif): Au-dessus, c'est le soleil.
I think all three of them are silly, especially the last one. But that's just me and maybe I'm wrong.
- The quenelle is a funny and innocent gesture that means "up yours" and/or is anti-establishment. It has no antisemitic subtext and it should not be interpreted in the context of Dieudonnés political views.
- Manuel Valls and the "fascist" French government try to politicize the gesture to distract the public from their incompetence and their inability to solve real problems. The censorship is evil.
- The political uproar is orchestrated by a group of Jewish (Zionist?) organizations that are close to Valls (especially Licra and Crif): Au-dessus, c'est le soleil.
I think all three of them are silly, especially the last one. But that's just me and maybe I'm wrong.
Slander & hate-speech aren't covered by freedom of speech. You can criticize the government and whatever, but accusing a whole minority of people as being slavetraders & childmurder-supporters publicly is seen as punishable hate-speech/incitement of hatred against a minority, rightfully so.
BaronLundi
Member
Online and Facebook polls lol. How I am not surprised that a poll with 95%/5% share doesn't trigger any kind of warning in you ?
Although I totally agree that the strategy is bad, the decision illegal and the consequences of the ban very scary.
Oh... and you missed the (real) one (IFOP) where 71% disapprove of Dieudonné.
Basically: a small and very active clique of dieudonnistes. Typical of paranoid, conspiracy and extreme right-wing groups.
Absolutely.
Captain Tuttle
Member
Dieudonné isn't muslim, he is an orthodox christian. But I like the way you are trying to put the gesture on islam and immigrants.
And no it's not just done by immigrants like said in OP, how about some white people :
or militaries :
or police officers :
or fire fighters :
Yeah I'm not sure they all look like young muslim men.
The fact that we have been talking about this for the last two weeks, just shows how our country is fucking lost
The one thing that can bring certain muslim immigrants and white supremacists together is the Jews.
has this nonsense spread outside of France?
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