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Radiant Silvergun |OT| Ikaruga's Spiritual Predecessor
- Thread starter LiK
- Start date
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
kaioshade said:
Well many non-shmupers buy these games, creditfeed themself trough the game and then complain it's just an hour long.
Skiptastic
Member
Holy shit, this thread has brought me back to xoxak reviews. I love that dude. I just wish he put out new stuff. 
Muchi Muchi Pink said:
Yea i can see that. A lot of my friends do say these games are too short because of it. But then again they cannot grasp NOT credit feeding and ask me why oftentimes i always restart when i can just continue. They do not get the concept of 1cc'ing for score either.
Shmups as a whole seem to be lost on people who do not enjoy them.
kaioshade said:
Well, this game in paticular kicks credit feeders in the balls. Without playing the game properly and learning to chain, your weapons will become more and more useless as the game progresses.
Credit feeding through a shooter is a pointless experience anyway. These games are all about the skill, excitement and WTF moments of living on the edge of that last life.
Phonomezer
Banned
This game is kicking my arse. You'd think I'd learn my lesson after Ikaruga but nooooo.
It also fucks over anyone who doesn't care about the chaining, unlike Ikaruga.AC!D said:
I guess anyone looking for an edge can just replay the cheaty Story/Saturn mode until your weapons are powerful enough to trivialize the first half of the game.
I would pay full retail price for a new mode that entirely removes weapon leveling and adjusts boss/enemy HP accordingly.
AC!D said:
That is why story mode exists. I think it is an excellent compromise. Credit feeding and leveling up your weapons to be saved is great for players who are not completely skilled as the hardcore players.
Arcade for the people who want to 1cc the game and maximize their score and chains. Best of both worlds, and why i think Silvergun is amazingly accessible.
kaioshade said:
1. Credit feeding is boring after seeing the entire game. In fact, it's usually boring far before that.
2. A lot of people think that arcade games are basically impossible to clear without using continues. Some even scoff at the notion that developers design the games around being cleared without continues.
So, I'm happy that Treasure made it clear that the default, intended setting involves no continues.
The next step is getting people to understand that the whole one credit thing also applies to other, non-shooter arcade-friendly genres, I guess!
AC!D said:rayner, check out this pic:
On the right hand said you can see which weapons are assigned to which buttons. In this pic, A, B + RB are the original A,B,C weapons.
X, Y, LB and RT (the sword) are the combination weapons. Using any of the combination weapons also powers up your original weapons (so powers up two at once).
I hope that helps (makes sense!)?
Oh there are 7 buttons... man I really need a cup of coffee in the morning. Thanx!
diffusionx
Gold Member
Tain said:
also: stupid reviewers credit-feed then criticize a game for only being 30 minutes long.
Tain said:
I do not disagree, but not everyone has the skill to run through the game in one sitting. If credit feeling allows a few more people to see the end of the game and appreciate it, then its all good. At least treasure gave people the options of multiple ways to play.
If shmups remain this untouchable impossible type of game to play to the average gamer, how on earth can we expect others to enjoy it and have the genre grow in popularity? And pretty much saying "get better or GTFO" is very off putting.
And not saying anyone here has that mentality, i have just seen it on other places.
discoalucard
i am a butthurt babby that can only drool in wonder at shiney objects
kaioshade said:
It's the overreaction of criticisms that shooters are too short/disposal. If you credit feed through something and enjoy it, then cool, that's what matters. If you credit feed and disparage it, though, you're probably missing the point. I've found the middle ground more comfortable - don't credit feed, but don't try to do perfect runs either. Just play to get a bit better everytime.
I'd still argue that it's the usually game's fault for not communicating how to "properly" play it. That's why Radiant Silvergun is a cut above the rest, though - the Saturn mode doesn't let you credit feed, at least until you've already put a substantial amount of time into it, and instead spreads the game over long term multiple plays instead of shorter bursts, making it more suitable to the console experience most gamers of the post 16-bit ere are familiar with. No other shooter home port since has done anything even remotely as well, and this game is fifteen years old.
Tain said:
The practice of 1 ccing is a metagame played by expert players and certainly not an illegitimate one. But the idea that an arcade game is built for anything but sucking as much money from the player as possible has always struck me as overtly romantic.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
I see nothing wrong with offering options. Treasure has been on this "We're too hardcore for own good" kick lately and it's getting kind-of annoying.
Understood, but spending hours practicing and memorizing is what makes shmups a joy to play. They are one of the few genres where skill and dedication are key to winning and scoring high. It's almost sports-like in that way. That's why so many people plop down, credit feed, and then mock the game as "easy".
Allowing a slow drip-feed of credits is a decent middle ground, so long as people understand why credits exist.
Allowing a slow drip-feed of credits is a decent middle ground, so long as people understand why credits exist.
I think the truth lies in the middle. The idea is you spend lots of money playing the game to practice. The operator makes money and you get better at the game. Rather than just feeding through the whole thing. The operator still makes cash off of all your practice runs.discoalucard said:
kaioshade said:
I don't think that not being able to see the end of a game is an actual problem (I own games I'll never beat, and I'm totally fine with that), but honestly, I doubt that this game only ever gives you one credit. Chances are high that nobody knows how to unlock more just yet. And if that's the case, I'm fine with that. I don't care all that much about having infinite continues in ports, as I'll avoid them regardless, but I like when developers make it clear that it hurts the game to play that way.
I don't really care about the genre's growth or anything like that, though, to be honest. These developers can manage themselves, and if I get the kind of games that I want, I'm happy.
diffusionx
Gold Member
discoalucard said:
Well, to suck the money from the player, the game needs to be hard but beatable.
If you design an arcade game that is balls-hard and totally unfair, you'll get quarters from people until they realize your game is unfair.
If you design an arcade game that is easy to beat, you won't get quarters from people.
So in the balance between the two extremes lies a good arcade game - one where 1cc'ing a game is very doable but also takes considerable skill and expertise. The 1cc game comes from the desire to suck as much money from the player as possible.
discoalucard said:
I don't see it as terribly romantic, just a lucky balance that came from the environment. Operators don't want players to be playing for a long time, but players aren't going to keep playing a game that actually seems impossible. So you make it hard enough that only the very dedicated players can play through the whole thing.
diff said it better
Tain said:
I'm not so sure about that. Games need numbers. Even Cave has hesitated localizing (outside of Japan) practically their entire catalog because shmups are simply out of reach for the average gamer. And for the reasons mentioned by others on this topic.
Games dont sell, developers do not make any more. Then the games we want cease to exist. Cave pretty much pt out tons of shooters. That number has dwindled significantly.
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
kaioshade said:
Well also, because many western gamers ALWAYS asked them to make their games region-free and stuff. They finally realized there is a market outside of japan. They didn't do it, because they needed to.
If I remember correctly they even make profit with just the japanese audience. Their PCB Kits cost about the same as the sega ones and they're a really small company compared to them. Anyway I'm very happy to get more and more shmups over here. I'm also cool if more people enjoy the genre.
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
3. But you have 7 weapons. For example a+b+c is the sword which is mapped per default on RT.Llyranor said:
kaioshade said:
Cave has hesitated localizing because they weren't getting good enough publishing deals. And now they have been. DFK is getting released in Europe, DS2 got a GoD release, and their iOS games have been huge. They have Vita development underway, too. Like I said, Asada probably knows more about making money with Cave's talents than I do, even if he's working for a Japanese arcade game development company. But Cave staying afloat really isn't the point.
Ultimately, you're saying that shooters need to be more accessible to grow. I should have made it more clear in my last post: I don't care whether or not they grow, because in the process of designing games to be more accessible, there is way too much room for them to become something that I don't care to play. And once you've gone that far, asking developers to spend resources on making what I do want becomes unreasonable. Thinking that they'll provide the new while providing the old to the same standards they have set in the past is too optimistic. I've have no reason to believe it would ever pan out.
If the developers of these games are going to try to get a new audience, I would much rather they show new people what the dedicated fans already see in the games than waste time making and focusing on more accessible modes. If they can't get a bigger audience doing that, I hope they pump out as many "inaccessible" games as they can before they die, so I can add them to the gigantic pile of shooters I have yet to play to my satisfaction. It's a pile that will last me a few lifetimes.
That's how it is for me. But even if I felt the genre needed a bigger audience, simply allowing people to credit feed is not going to convert anyone. That's been done. Treasure, by having the continues deactivated by default and by unlocking credits as time passes, is doing what is most sensible for a home port that will be played by people unfamiliar with the genre.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I only messed with Ikaruga mode a little bit, but it seems that all it changes are the chaining rules and scoring. It lets you switch between enemy colors without breaking the chain as long as you follow the 3 at a time rule, which means you don't have to skip nearly as many enemies, but the Max Chain point value has a lower cap (25.6K).
I'll probably prefer playing this way ultimately, but I want to give original mode another shot before I write it off again.
I'll probably prefer playing this way ultimately, but I want to give original mode another shot before I write it off again.
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
Btw. you definitely get lifes and credits over time. Got 10 lifes and 4 credits for the arcade mode after playing for ~9hrs.
BruiserBear
Banned
I just crossed the one hour mark in Original Mode and it gave me an additional life, not a continue. I don't recall if that's how it was in the Saturn version or not.
Barkley's Justice
Member
this game is the shit!
i used to be so good, i am getting WHOOPED at the moment. so rusty!!
i used to be so good, i am getting WHOOPED at the moment. so rusty!!
Barkley's Justice
Member
Muchi Muchi Pink said:
lol. you've played this game for 9 hours already??
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
Choose a color and only chain this color until it's reset at a particular point of the stage. After every 3 enemies of the same color the chain goes up. But there are also secret chains and hidden items which give you a big amount of points. Grab a good replay and watch. There are some japanese players already rocking the leaderboards.Mike M said:
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
What sucks (The game is still a really good port) that I can't choose 1P or 2P. I want to have a red ship :/
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I've heard elsewhere that you get continues faster in arcade mode than in story mode. You start with 3 continues in arcade mode and can adjust lives/extend settings. You start with no continues in story mode and can't adjust those settings.Muchi Muchi Pink said:
Ben Morales
Member
Muchi Muchi Pink said:
Didn't this game follow in the Toaplan tradition of having the 2P ship move faster from left to right but slower up and down while the 1P ship is the opposite? I seem to remember always picking the 2P ship in this game. Maybe that's why I'm getting owned more than usual. :x
Wow, loving this. I only got past stage 3, and had to choose btw 2 or 4 (doesn't matter, I didn't last long after that). It's pretty tough, but not impossibly so so far.
Is the main complaint about the game re: having to chain properly in order to get properly leveled-up weapons. I'm mainly a 1cc'er (well, an ideal more than anything, since I don't remember actually being ABLE to 1cc one yet - but the enjoyment comes from the journey), and don't really like playing for chains/score since I already have enough trouble just staying alive. If the game necessitates that, I might just stick with story mode to save up on my weapon lvls. That should solve this 'issue', I hope.
More importantly, I'm really enjoying the core game. I love having 7 weapons to choose from! I dash around the screen, switching constantly between weapons and trying to pick the right one for the right situation. I play with 3 buttons on my arcade stick. Really good fun.
Is the main complaint about the game re: having to chain properly in order to get properly leveled-up weapons. I'm mainly a 1cc'er (well, an ideal more than anything, since I don't remember actually being ABLE to 1cc one yet - but the enjoyment comes from the journey), and don't really like playing for chains/score since I already have enough trouble just staying alive. If the game necessitates that, I might just stick with story mode to save up on my weapon lvls. That should solve this 'issue', I hope.
More importantly, I'm really enjoying the core game. I love having 7 weapons to choose from! I dash around the screen, switching constantly between weapons and trying to pick the right one for the right situation. I play with 3 buttons on my arcade stick. Really good fun.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
FWIW, I really like the weapon selection in this game too. Probably my favorite aspect of it, as it's just fun to mess around with some of them.
Supposedly one of the achievements is to beat the first stage using only the sword.
Supposedly one of the achievements is to beat the first stage using only the sword.
yo_soy_el_topo
Member
Yeah love the weapons too, but nothing touches the sword. I remember watching some dudes sword only no death run. Always aspired to have a run like that one day.
edit: found the video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DsqDRNbmZ4
edit: found the video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DsqDRNbmZ4
Ryu bogard
Member
Playing for the first time I really suck at it
. it's feels harder than ikaruga for me. I think I will stick with story mode for now. Is it possible to bring your powered up weapons to online co-op?
and every other shooter