RAM thread of Next Generation
- Thread starter thuway
- Start date
You should probably find a different retort to use rather than "Cool Story Bro" as it is a banned meme and a mod might decide to enforce the rule.
You might also want to consider developing a little bit thicker skin.
Insane Metal
Member
Perhaps he felt slighted by what he perceived to be taunting image instead of courteously presenting your point of view
I meant total RAM minus x amount of team reserved for os. More to the point I was making an assessment of your claim that 8>4GB which would be true if they were the same memory type.
I assume he did. But taunting images are not as a rule a bannable offense.
I have no problem with taking it when I dish it out but I thought it polite to inform him that he may have unwittingly broken a rule.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Slow RAM is not better than Fast RAM. Anyone that says it is is being delusional. In Microsoft's case, however, it makes sense because they want to dedicate a lot of RAM to OS/Games without costing them an arm and a leg. The cost is the only reason they're aiming for a slower RAM. I explained earlier:
I've been told that 100mb asd impossible. :lol
Hell... no. We are lucky if we get 64MB. I expect 32MB.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
AA and high res frame buffer add very little to the amount of VRAM required.
For example a 2xMSAA 32-bit double buffered 1080P game needs 48MB (according to my math). Not exactly breaking the bank for a 2GB or more system.
Of course non-MSAA methods like MLAA and FXAA are becoming more popular, which saves that added frame buffer targets.
systemfehler
Member
Not impossible but depending on what MS plans it might be rather expensive. 64MB would probably be the conservative amount of eDRAM - we simply don't know enough about the GPU/CPU constellation.
Depends 360 could only use the eDRAM as back-buffer so you would only need ~31MB or ~63MB for 1080p and 4xFSAA. With tiling, etc. you might even need less - or depending on your philosophy you can spend money on a bigger eDRAM cache.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Yeah, no console will require more than 0.5GB of RAM for OS. However, Durango being Windows-based will see an idle RAM of 256MB average (Less than Windows 7) and may shoot all the way up to 1GB, if any extensive multitasking is taking place.
Remember, web browsers take up insane amount of RAM, and the next Xbox will definitely include Internet Explorer of some sort.
BloodMoney
Banned
This ^
What point of view? All i was given was a taunt.
Good job operating inside the boundaries.
Thanks for the heads up.
Back to the point
The Crysis screen cap is intended to show that great graphics can be had with Vram allocation lower than 1 GB. I will be pleasantly surprised if Orbis can push that resolution, image quality, and draw distance at 60fps. As for the next consoles being as powerful as an i7 quad core + Geforce 680… I doubt it. I will be playing Star Wars 1313 and Watchdogs on my PC… I very much look forward to playing Sony 1st party titles on their next console.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
Ya, I was looking at it from a traditional GPU VRAM way, with eDRAM things are more complicated, the size plays an important role, it is not cheap. This gen they counted on tiling and a small fast pool. Most devs just went sub-HD, the "free" MSAA wasn't that free.
Ask Nintendo. 1GB for wiiU OS probably due to the multitasking and always on mii verse , web browser etc
nhlducks35
Member
Isn't the RAM bandwidth for the Wii U something like 12.8GB/s?
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
No. I wish.
By Benefactor, you mean that WiiU will benefit from it the most? Hell no!
"Wii U has 2GB of Samsung DDR3 memory running at a max speed of [12.8 GB/s]. 43% slower than PS3/360". Of that 2GB, 1GB is dedicated to OS/MiiVerse while the rest is dedicated to games.
Compared to Durango, it has "8 GB of DDR3/4 RAM. We will assume there is additional ED/S RAM."
Orbis: "4 GB of RAM at a 192GB/S; GDDR5".
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
Isn't msaa ridiculously expensive with deferred rendering, even with whatever optimization dx11 made?
BomberMouse
Member
That sounds like a very bad theory. Where would the OS inflate if the rest of the ram is available for the game? You are not really proposing to move 750mb to swap and back every single time the Home button is pressed right?
AFAIK, the vita doesn't do this.
I thought the 360 had 32 but after checking the right amount I guess around 80MB would be enough?
4GB is sufficient while 2GB is too little.
So 4GB of very fast RAM would be my preferred option rather than 8 GB of slower RAM.
8GB is not going to matter much at the resolution (1920 x 1080 max) and levels of AA that is realistic in next-gen so basically using 8GB of slow-poke RAM is just because the foolish platform holders think people want consoles that does everything including washing the dishes while you play games.
So 4GB of very fast RAM would be my preferred option rather than 8 GB of slower RAM.
8GB is not going to matter much at the resolution (1920 x 1080 max) and levels of AA that is realistic in next-gen so basically using 8GB of slow-poke RAM is just because the foolish platform holders think people want consoles that does everything including washing the dishes while you play games.
McHuj
Member
To the first part, MS may be thinking about using the Xbox to do even crazy stuff like home automation. Who knows how much space you need to run stuff like that plus anything they may come up with over the next 5-8 years.
To your other question, probably. My guess is ~128 MB is the absolute maximum we'll see for an embedded RAM. It will probably be around 64MB. When the 360 launched in had 10 MB of eDRAM with some additional logic like the ROPs in a 80mm die. It's been speculated that the WiiU's 32MB of eDRAM take up ~37mm at 40nm. At 28nm, that 32MB of eDRAM should be around 20mm. So my guess is that MS can easily offer 64MB of eDRAM at 28nm and still come in under the original 360's die sizes.
My speculation is:
80mm for 8 1.6GHz Cores + ARM + DSP (360 was 176mm for the CPU)
150mm for a 768 shader 1GHz GPU (360 was 182mm)
50mm for ROPs+64MB of EDRAM (360 was 80mm).
20mm for any small additional stuff
Total APU 300mm in size (total silicon area about 30% smaller than the original 360)
WiiU also has eDRAM. All I'm saying is I expected the next ps and Xbox to have far more ram than WiiU. 8-16 GB was originally rumored for ps4 and now it's 2-4 GB.
BloodMoney
Banned
Agreed
I don't need Facebook or Google+ integration so that everyone knows when i pass through a waypoint in Killzone 4, or when i find a relic in the next Uncharted, or what my lap time is on the Nordschleife in GT6.
I really hope Sony keeps the OS lite, but unfortunately, that's not the direction things are headed.
Its like all this "two screen" experience BS popping up on TV, WTF is that. All i'm trying to do watch the Walking Dead, i don't care about hashtag whatever. Leave that crap to the Wii U, Sony needs to focus on the hardcore IMO.
phosphor112
Banned
eDRAM is real expensive and extremely hot.
It's a very good theory. They just need flash storage to do this. And yes, Vita does do this.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Indeed. Hell 8+ years considering these consoles will be made with the knowlege of this gens longevity.
The OS wouldn't actually need to "inflate" until an app is started, so the swap to flash for the game's memory could be hidden in the app's startup time.
I would think a higher-quality Kinect would affect CPU (and/or GPGPU) usage more than RAM at these kinds of scales, but I guess if it does a high-res scan of the room and saves the extracted geometry to compare against, it could eat up some memory. Even then, a few hundred MB seems like a lot, so I'm not sure if it'd get into the multiple GB range. And if it's doing something like that, we know what at least 4 CPU cores are doing too.
captscience
Member
Aren't current rumors pointing to a monster 450mm APU?
I prefer more RAM and when non-tech people look at the specs Durango will look like the better offer imo. How will the different RAM solutions affect a multiplat game, will we see a noticeable difference between faster RAM vs more RAM? I mean this what is come down to, who cares if your slightly better theoretically.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
I am a bit ignorant on the eDram front. I remember it being hyped up with the 360 as essentially giving "free AA" but that obviously wasn't true or was exaggerated. What is the primary benefit?
Proelite
Member
You forgot the Esram in the gpu. 16~64mb Esram. There is also the blitter, zlib decompresser, scalers, video decoder that should be bigger than 20mm you gave for additional stuff.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
lol I was just joking about the RAM OT but I'm kind of glad it was made.
Anyway I prefer 4GB of very fast RAM over 8gb of slower, especially if a bunch of that 8gb is taken by the OS. But I won't pretend like I know a whole lot, that's just what I think.
Anyway I prefer 4GB of very fast RAM over 8gb of slower, especially if a bunch of that 8gb is taken by the OS. But I won't pretend like I know a whole lot, that's just what I think.
Zyrusticae
Banned
Not so much.
No amount of closed-box direct-to-metal optimization is going to let a "next-gen" console exceed my two GTX 670s (both of which have 4GBs of VRAM individually).
The definition of "high-end PC" is a little different from what it was way back in 2005.
The settings on the console versions are also waaaaay lower than what's available on the PC version...
Chuck Norris
Banned
Will the consoles end up like a GameCube vs Xbox comparison? PS4 being quicker, more efficient while 720 is brute force power and in the end the best looking games will be hard to split
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
It has pros and cons. It mitigates the low bandwidth of cheap RAM, but then you have to deal with the eDRAM itself.
http://www.humus.name/index.php?page=News&ID=309
Betrayer of hope
Banned
If you are a developer you're response will be
You can never have enough RAM.
In 2005 people thought 512MB was enough and couple of years later ram has become a bottleneck. I cant believe people here in neogaf are happy with 1080p 60fps as a miniumum. Tv sets are going to be beyond HD in next 5 years.
Games are only going to get bigger and more ambitious. OS footprints for services and apps are only going to get more and more demanding and intensive. And you think 4gb is enough? seriously? 10 years for 4gb?
I hope those R%D in sony listen for once to their first party developers and give them all the RAM possible. 8gb for OS and 8gb for games ought to be enough for a next gen console. Plenty for sony to add loads of services without eating into game dev ram usage
You can never have enough RAM.
In 2005 people thought 512MB was enough and couple of years later ram has become a bottleneck. I cant believe people here in neogaf are happy with 1080p 60fps as a miniumum. Tv sets are going to be beyond HD in next 5 years.
Games are only going to get bigger and more ambitious. OS footprints for services and apps are only going to get more and more demanding and intensive. And you think 4gb is enough? seriously? 10 years for 4gb?
I hope those R%D in sony listen for once to their first party developers and give them all the RAM possible. 8gb for OS and 8gb for games ought to be enough for a next gen console. Plenty for sony to add loads of services without eating into game dev ram usage
Moral Panic
Member
I'd much rather have 4GB GDDR5 @ 192GB/s than have 8GB @ 65GB/s.
Proelite
Member
What about 8GB at ~100gb/s?
What about just the eSRAM around that speed?
liquidspeed
Member
I think you may have slightly misinterpreted part of question.
obviously faster is better than slower, but in the context of the possible ( probable?) Orbis/Durango situation where we potentially have:
Orbis with half of the total RAM that Durango has
Orbis' RAM with 3x the data rate of Drango's RAM
Durango with some ( 64-100?) MB of EDRAM - Doesn't the frame buffer reside or partially reside here??
Durango with a larger OS footprint, especially if multitasking.
you mentioned that Durango's OS could potentially take ~ 1 GB, leaving 7 GB free for games.
On the other hand Dennis mentioned that even with this much RAM, it would be difficult/ impossible to implement certain effects/ IQ enhancing techniques given its lower bandwidth and the target resolution of 1080P ( which in answers part of my original question)
Some people expressed concerns that Orbis would under perform in open world games...
So are the primary benefits/ differences of each the following?:
Only taking into account RAM Performance differences and assuming 1080P 30 FPS target and remembering the presence of EDRAM:
Orbis> Durango:
-higher quality effects possible in more/relatively linear games
- Better IQ
Durango> Orbis
-Better for open world games
-Higher quality textures
-( More things on screen?? more ram, but less time to render per frame?)
-Better, more comprehensive multitasking
Proelite
Member
All I am saying that we don't know what the speed of the 8GB of DDR3/4 is at currently. There is great variance depending on the clock of the chips and the size of the bus they're using.
McHuj
Member
Are the rumors that there are two pools of embedded RAM in the APU?
My tests from Skyrim
* Render resolution doesnt affect textures VRAM cost [logical, but its Bethesda engine, i had to test it
]* 800x600 to 1280x1024 jump takes only 16MB VRAM more! and thats 2.7 times more pixels
* 800x600 no AA jump to 4x TRMSAA cost only 15MB VRAM, but 1280x1024 no AA jump to 4x TRMSAA cost 140mb VRAM
* 1024->2048 shadow res jump takes 20mb VRAM, 1024->4096 takes 215MB VRAM,
No way that will happen, they would need to use gddr4 on 512bit bus to achieve 113gb/s, where gddr3 256bit bus has 63gb/s.
Oh and i havent found any GPU, even engineering one that has every used 512bit bus with gddr3.
I personally think that 4GB GDDR5 > 8GB DDR3 + EDRAM, but 2GB GDDR5 would be worse than 8GB DDR3 + EDRAM.
Why accept that speed reduction for 8GB of RAM that is only needed for bloat OS?
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