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[chubigans]

I thought the movie was good, but mannnnnnn I didn't know I wanted an Ocean's Eleven-type movie until they mentioned it. Ugh.

 

[Xrenity]

How has Jay never seen Ocean's Eleven :|

 

[imBask]

I have never seen Ocean's Eleven

Canadian Netflix only has 12 and 13

 

[ultracal31]

I have never seen Ocean's Eleven

Canadian Netflix only has 12 and 13

Weird ain't it? Canadian Netflix only has die hard 5 as another example

 

[Oreoleo]

I don't mean to dismiss their criticisms because most are valid (though I think- aside from uncharismatic characters- they all apply to EP7 much more so I'm not sure why that one gets a pass now), but it sounds like the audience in their showing soured their experience a ton.

I'd have liked the movie a lot less if everyone in the theater clapped and cheered every time Darth Vader, R2D2/C3PO, AT-ATs, etc were on screen as well.

 

[Grinchy]

It would be so weird to go see a brand new movie and you look over and Jay, Rich, and Mike are sitting next to you.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

OMG. This first bit in the first three minutes has me dying.

Finished that bit. Golden stuff. GOAT.

 

[Rentahamster]

While I do agree with their criticisms, the last 2 minutes of fanservice was a guilty pleasure of mine. I could have done without the other bits of fanservice that seemed to be thrown in randomly.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I think- aside from uncharismatic characters- they all apply to EP7 much more so I'm not sure why that one gets a pass now

The complaints about the two movies are basically inverted.

TFA is just a retread plot, but it's executed well for what it is and has enough likable characters and world-building to prop it up.

Rogue One has a unique focus and tone, but it doesn't do enough with it or do it well enough to make you care about what happens to the protagonists.

OMG. This first bit in the first three minutes has me dying.

Finished that bit. Golden stuff. GOAT.

They should have released a 20-minute video of just that sort of stuff, then released the full review the next day.

 

[Rentahamster]

They should have released a 20-minute video of just that sort of stuff, then released the full review the next day.

Sorta like the concept behind that Prometheus video they did. Take a gag from HiTB and then turn it into its own joke video. I laughed so hard at that one.

 

[Oreoleo]

The complaints about the two movies are basically inverted.

TFA is just a retread plot, but it's executed well for what it is and has enough likable characters and world-building to prop it up.

Rogue One has a unique focus and tone, but it doesn't do enough with it or do it well enough to make you care about what happens to the protagonists.

Yeah, maybe saying *all* of them apply to EP7 was over-reaching, but things like the universe feeling so small and unnecessary fan service... The Force Awakens was absolutely terrible in those regards. And it taking place 30 years after Jedi makes it more inexcusable.

Rogue One is days/weeks before A New Hope, why WOULDN'T there be TIE Fighters, storm troopers, AT-ST's or other familiar characters present? Really bizarre criticisms IMO, and partly why I think the neckbeards in the theater influenced their opinion on the movie.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

The complaints about the two movies are basically inverted.

TFA is just a retread plot, but it's executed well for what it is and has enough likable characters and world-building to prop it up.

Rogue One has a unique focus and tone, but it doesn't do enough with it or do it well enough to make you care about what happens to the protagonists.

This is spot on about the inversion.

They should have released a 20-minute video of just that sort of stuff, then released the full review the next day.

Oh yes they should have.

Yeah, maybe saying *all* of them apply to EP7 was over-reaching, but things like the universe feeling so small and unnecessary fan service... The Force Awakens was absolutely terrible in those regards. And it taking place 30 years after Jedi makes it more inexcusable.

Rogue One is days/weeks before A New Hope, why WOULDN'T there be TIE Fighters, storm troopers, AT-ST's or other familiar characters present? Really bizarre criticisms IMO, and partly why I think the neckbeards in the theater influenced their opinion on the movie.

Isn't that kind of an exact criticism regarding the story and setting they chose? That they keep limiting themselves and retreading old ground?

 

[Rydeen]

Rogue One is days/weeks before A New Hope, why WOULDN'T there be TIE Fighters, storm troopers, AT-ST's or other familiar characters present? Really bizarre criticisms IMO, and partly why I think the neckbeards in the theater influenced their opinion on the movie.

THIS, this criticism is hypocritical and makes no sense when Force Awakens is way more guilty of this. The fact that Force Awakens takes place 30 years after Jedi and yet we still have stormtroopers, X-Wings and Tie Fighters is inexcusabale and clearly banking on nostalgia, at least Rogue One is right before A New Hope, so there's an expectation those elements will be there.

 

[Oreoleo]

Isn't that kind of an exact criticism regarding the story and setting they chose? That they keep limiting themselves and retreading old ground?

I guess so. But at the end they all kinda go "This COULD'VE been a good movie but..." like they were fine with the premise but wanted those elements removed somehow. Maybe they were just speaking more towards the execution of the characterization at that point.

 

[CygnusXS]

I'd be curious to see a world where Ep 7 and R1 are the exact same movies, but released in opposite order.

 

[Schlorgan]

I'd be curious to see a world where Ep 7 and R1 are the exact same movies, but released in opposite order.

I'd be more curious to see a world where Ep7 came out before Ep 1-3

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I guess so. But at the end they all kinda go "This COULD'VE been a good movie but..." like they were fine with the premise but wanted those elements removed somehow. Maybe they were just speaking more towards the execution of the characterization at that point.

I part of this also depends on what we're considering the premise.

If we think broadly as the premise being "a pre-ANH movie about rebellion," yes that could have existed without that specific fan-service because you're not nailed to a particular time or location.

If we narrow the premise to "the rebels stealing the plans to the Death Star," yes that still could work because I don't think that necessarily nails you to an exact time or place (although my knowledge of what is canon regarding SW is completely out of whack now).

If we accept the premise as a very specific "the rebels steal the plans a few days before ANH," well yeah, obviously a lot of that stuff is going to be in there.

I think a recurring criticism of fanservice in this reboot/continuation era of Hollywood is that these looks backward in the mirror seem to come at the expense of telling a more "new" story and that yes, you lose out on the execution of characterization when you surround them with referential material.

Obviously Into Darkness is a very different movie since it's part of a series that's functionally totally independent now of the original series of films, but these fan-service issues remind me of this comment by Hulk:

Compare that with the Star Trek canon’s greatest villain, the titular Khan from Wrath of Khan, who not only had a philosophy that made sense and was dramatically executed in the initial act, but was also someone consumed by a personal vendetta of killing Kirk. Sure, it was just simple revenge, but that makes for a real, functional threat. More importantly, the film used that constant threat to maximize the drama of every moment of suspense. We’re made to intrinsically fear and feel every ounce of Khan’s hatred. But Star Trek Into Darkness only seems to see villainy purely in terms of form. Cumberbatch's villain is a Frankenstein amalgamation of semi-relevant fears: part terrorist, part demi-god, part anti-hero, and part evil genius, but none of those things in whole. And at this point you may get the joke of Hulk not calling him by his name either because the two characters could not be more different in terms of function. The modern incarnation is all texture. And quite honestly, nowhere is the film’s misunderstanding of purpose more apparent than in a series of cheap nostalgia plays at Wrath of Khan, by outright recreating scenes with minor inversions… Hulk asks you a simple question regarding this: what’s the ceiling on these kinds of emotional experiences? Why divorce the emotion of the moment by turning it into reference? By trying to feed off an associative memory, it inherently robs the scene of any sincerity by inviting the direct comparison. It is “cover band” filmmaking and it’s the perfect metaphor for a film mimicking the thing it wants to be, instead of acting like the things that inspired it.

I think you run a real danger of a "cover band" feel or sense of "mimicry" if your movie is just hitting the beats of a past well-loved film. Like here, AT-AT, AT-ST, Darth Vader, Tarkin, Leia, Death Star, X-Wings, R2-D2, C3PO and more. Because when you stuff yourself so full of references to past works, you endanger your movie in two ways. A) You begin to lose time for new material, particularly material for new characters to actually be properly characterized, and B) in the case of a filmic "Universe," you run the risk of making your universe seem too small. This in particular was a criticism of mine with TFA, where everything just seemed too small. Everything from the way space travel was shown to the recurring major players in the story made it seem like there was an "it's a small world" phenomenon, when I really wanted to imagine an expansive, sprawling, diverse universe.

I was actually thinking about the whole issue of intertextuality today, and I think the other major issue that a lot of movies get into is that they use "stuff" from past movies (or source material) as a kind of nostalgia-bait. You can be referential without being nostalgia-driven, and I think there's a balance that a lot of filmmakers have to learn. Marvel movies for example are chock full of fun little things for the nerds, but they still have new characters and the "Easter Egg" type things in those films often seem to be relegated to passing comments or items in backdrops. It doesn't feel like this:

I dunno. I'm probably just a rambling cynic at this point.

 

[Sanjuro]

Getting some food after work then kicking back and watching this. Everyone has been telling me they were pretty spot on with Rogue One.

 

[Anth0ny]

The complaints about the two movies are basically inverted.

TFA is just a retread plot, but it's executed well for what it is and has enough likable characters and world-building to prop it up.

Rogue One has a unique focus and tone, but it doesn't do enough with it or do it well enough to make you care about what happens to the protagonists.

yup

that's why I preferred TFA. the retread plot is the lesser of the two sins that each film commits.

I loved the review and really agreed with most of it. Nonetheless, I still enjoyed Rogue One because, as they touched upon, I care so much about ANH and its characters that just seeing them and their involvement was enough to keep me engaged.

As a stand alone movie? It's not great. The new characters are WEAK.

 

[stump sock]

fortunately you'll never see most of them again.

 

[Sanjuro]

I'm 2:33 minutes in and this is amazing.

 

[Data West]

I guess you don't want to endear fans to the 'enemy' but they should have done a republic commando style movie if they wanted to do a darker war star wars movie. like a small cast of nobody soldiers, 4 at most, that are basically caught in a concentrated shitstorm

 

[rekameohs]

I'd be curious to see a world where Ep 7 and R1 are the exact same movies, but released in opposite order.

Then the much better movie would've come out second, not first.

Spoiler

teehee

 

[Infernostew]

Can we please get a Shane Black written and directed Star Wars noir buddy detective film set on Coruscant so we can forget Rogue One ever happened?

 

[Sanjuro]

Mommy, the talking robot is dead!

 

[Admiral Woofington]

mommy i want spaceshiiiiiiiiiiiiiiips

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Most of my exposure to Star Wars has come from RLM so as far a I knew there was just a character called Jimmy Smits in it for some reason

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I guess you don't want to endear fans to the 'enemy' but they should have done a republic commando style movie if they wanted to do a darker war star wars movie. like a small cast of nobody soldiers, 4 at most, that are basically caught in a concentrated shitstorm

Mm that's an interesting idea. Love me some Republic Commando.

 

[Joeku]

Republic Commando is so damn good. And, tonally, a way to do "dark" Star Wars.

 

[Secret Fawful]

Their whole argument and joke doesn't make sense. This is a New Hope prequel. Of course it's going to have Tie Fighters, X-Wings, Mon Mothma, AT-ATs, Stormtroopers, etc. Like, what the fuck was a movie set before New Hope supposed to have?

But apparently that's "limited".

 

[morningbus]

Their whole argument and joke doesn't make sense. This is a New Hope prequel. Of course it's going to have Tie Fighters, X-Wings, Mon Mothma, AT-ATs, Stormtroopers, etc. Like, what the fuck was a movie set before New Hope supposed to have?

But apparently that's "limited".

I think their point was more that it had to have all of it because. Not even a New Hope had everything you listed there.

 

[CygnusXS]

Their whole argument and joke doesn't make sense. This is a New Hope prequel. Of course it's going to have Tie Fighters, X-Wings, Mon Mothma, AT-ATs, Stormtroopers, etc. Like, what the fuck was a movie set before New Hope supposed to have?

But apparently that's "limited".

You're reading it wrong. Obviously those things need to be there to do this story. It's that they did this story, necessitating those things, that bothered them.

 

[call_kotaku]

Being something in the canon within the timeline of the originals made them take more care with the production design, atleast. It felt way more lived-in than the prequels or TFA, which is a huge deal for me.

But I agree that the fanservice sequence at the end felt like them shitting on the rest of the movie just to satisfy a certain crowd.

 

[inm8num2]

 

[Odrion]

.

 

[BigAT]

*Rich laugh*

 

[StopMakingSense]

I dunno, that opening bit was the Rogue One of RLM bits.

 

[Sanjuro]

Their whole argument and joke doesn't make sense. This is a New Hope prequel. Of course it's going to have Tie Fighters, X-Wings, Mon Mothma, AT-ATs, Stormtroopers, etc. Like, what the fuck was a movie set before New Hope supposed to have?

But apparently that's "limited".

Rogue One didn't need to or was expected to have any of those things.

 

[Secret Fawful]

Rogue One didn't need to or was expected to have any of those things.

Out of the things I listed, you could have avoided two of them. X-Wings are necessary because the heroes are rebels. Tie Fighters and Stormtroopers are necessary because the bad guys are the Empire. They could've had new stuff too, but the old stuff was always going to be there for this story. The complaint that the movie shouldn't have been made makes more sense, even if I disagree with it, then complaining that a direct prequel to A New Hope had the same things in it as A New Hope.

 

[A Serious Man]

Out of the things I listed, you could have avoided two of them. X-Wings are necessary because the heroes are rebels. Tie Fighters and Stormtroopers are necessary because the bad guys are the Empire. They could've had new stuff too, but the old stuff was always going to be there for this story. The complaint that the movie shouldn't have been made makes more sense, even if I disagree with it, then complaining that a direct prequel to A New Hope had the same things in it as A New Hope.

Are they? None of the main characters use an X-Wing. Rogue One is essentially a heist film, it's incredibly easy to conceive of a version that doesn't include X-Wings or giant space battles.

I enjoyed Rogue One for the most part but I'm done with these films that lean too heavily on nostalgia. It's why I've been dreading the young Han Solo project, give us something new. Expand the universe. Virtually every creative mind in the industry would love to work on this property, exploit that and chart new territory.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Out of the things I listed, you could have avoided two of them. X-Wings are necessary because the heroes are rebels. Tie Fighters and Stormtroopers are necessary because the bad guys are the Empire. They could've had new stuff too, but the old stuff was always going to be there for this story. The complaint that the movie shouldn't have been made makes more sense, even if I disagree with it, then complaining that a direct prequel to A New Hope had the same things in it as A New Hope.

I feel like if your universe is typecasting an entire set of Imperial and rebellion forces into basically two ships and a single type of soldier, there's some real imaginative sparks missing.

 

[BassForever]

I feel like if your universe is typecasting an entire set of Imperial and rebellion forces into basically two ships and a single type of soldier, there's some real imaginative sparks missing.

Well George Lucas added a ton of new ideas but executed them so poorly in the prequels the fan base rejects almost all of them.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Well George Lucas added a ton of new ideas but executed them so poorly in the prequels the fan base rejects almost all of them.

Yet another reason that George Lucas should be slow-roasted over a fire pit somewhere for a few hours. He screwed the pooch with the prequels and screwed them so thoroughly that to me it seems like he ended up putting the franchise into safe mode.

 

[DerZuhälter]

Ridiculously harsh critique considering them letting TFA of the hook for the same shit. Backstory of TFA's characters is probably a single sentence for each character and definitely not bigger than R1 character's backstory.
"But they were so funny and charming, while being tortured, hunted and watching mass genocide! I like these people! They are funner than these other oppressed, incarcerated, tortured and disenfranchised rag tag group of people" Well no shit.

 

[Rentahamster]

Ridiculously harsh critique considering them letting TFA of the hook for the same shit. Backstory of TFA's characters is probably a single sentence for each character and definitely not bigger than R1 character's backstory.
"But they were so funny and charming, while being tortured, hunted and watching mass genocide! I like these people! They are funner than these other oppressed, incarcerated, tortured and disenfranchised rag tag group of people" Well no shit.

The way the characters were developed and fleshed out in TFA was much better than R1, however, despite the initial introductory backstory starting off in similar spots.

 

[Sanjuro]

Out of the things I listed, you could have avoided two of them. X-Wings are necessary because the heroes are rebels. Tie Fighters and Stormtroopers are necessary because the bad guys are the Empire. They could've had new stuff too, but the old stuff was always going to be there for this story. The complaint that the movie shouldn't have been made makes more sense, even if I disagree with it, then complaining that a direct prequel to A New Hope had the same things in it as A New Hope.

Like someone else said, none of the main characters need these things. They could have had different variants used of all three of those things.

I mean, that's not my main gripe with the film, but it paints the broader picture with what went wrong here.

 

[BassForever]

TFA had a much smaller cast so they collectively got more time to develop via process of elimination. This was done by keeping Poe ", Phasma, and Snoke basically off screen most of the movie choosing to focus on rey, finn, bb8, and kylo.

 

[jett]

Are they? None of the main characters use an X-Wing. Rogue One is essentially a heist film, it's incredibly easy to conceive of a version that doesn't include X-Wings or giant space battles.

I enjoyed Rogue One for the most part but I'm done with these films that lean too heavily on nostalgia. It's why I've been dreading the young Han Solo project, give us something new. Expand the universe. Virtually every creative mind in the industry would love to work on this property, exploit that and chart new territory.

But is there new territory to chart? A long time ago (in a video game forum close by) I said I'd want sequels that were completely new and didn't include characters from the previous movies. I was blasted and told that Star Wars is the Skywalkers. The fans don't want anything new, they want the same old shit. And maybe Star Wars isn't capable of providing anything new anyway. The mentions of the Star Wars universe feeling small are pretty accurate. I have never gotten the feeling that Lucas ever created some massive fictional world, despite taking place in multiple planets.

 

[BassForever]

Considering how fucking massive the old expanded canon was their are star wars fans totally cool with storys without the skywalker family.

 

[A Serious Man]

But is there new territory to chart? A long time ago (in a video game forum close by) I said I'd want sequels that were completely new and didn't include characters from the previous movies. I was blasted and told that Star Wars is the Skywalkers. The fans don't want anything new, they want the same old shit. And maybe Star Wars isn't capable of providing anything new anyway. The mentions of the Star Wars universe feeling small are pretty accurate. I have never gotten the feeling that Lucas ever created some massive fictional world, despite taking place in multiple planets.

KOTOR is one of the most beloved works in the Star Wars universe and has nothing to do with the Skywalkers. TCW explores a bevy of new cultures, stories and themes and is highly regarded for doing so. Disney may feel they have to marry everything to the OT but that's going to get old pretty quickly, even for casual fans.