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Reports on Russian connections to Trump [Summaries in OP] #GoldenShowers

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Exactly, which is why it is so dangerous for the likes of Buzzfeed to ride this story now. Everyone saying "first of all, this isn't verified" is all fine and dandy, but the general viewing public will only ask "so is this that 'fake news' thing everyone is talking about?" after this is all over if any parts of the report are affirmatively debunked. Especially since, as you said, it's all but impossible to affirmatively confirm any of it.

Well this is a bit of a contradiction on their part because a lot of people, not just trumpers, ate up the e-mail and Wikileaks bullshit despite a lot of being just that: bullshit.

So I see this ass BuzzFeed thinking, well if Wikileaks & Outlets can dumb entire email archives we might as well put this out there and get people talking.
 

Kyzer

Banned
Yeah, there is even more than I listed, but that's all I could come up with off the top of my head. Honestly, nothing outside the pissing stuff is really that outrageous when you look at all of this. Trump being in bed with Russia isn't something that is all that surprising if true, at all. I mean, we can discount this with loaded terms like 'double agent,' but anyone who can't see a very disturbing Pro-Russia aspect to Trump's entire campaign really isn't looking very hard.

And you're using no logic whatsoever to counter what I'm saying, outside it being 'too crazy'. This has nothing to do with "hating trump." Could it all just be coincidental? I mean, sure, maybe, but there's a definite pattern here. And it's a really weird pattern when you consider that Trump prides himself on a strongman persona, one that is slowly shifting into a strongman puppet by an even bigger strongman by his total lack of inaction and unwillingness to say anything of substance about it.


Theres nothing Trump has done or said that could make these reports "not outrageous." They are absolutely HUGE claims that would totally rock the country poliltically. We are not privy to the results and evidence ascertained within the FBIs investigation into Trumps ties to Russia, so therefore any claim to already be in the know or hardly shocked by these claims in the report turning out to be true cannot be anything other than politically and emotionally motivated confirmation bias. "Logic" is not extrapolating into the future and reaching an unsubstantiated conclusion. Conspiracy theories are not logic...
 

Alx

Member
It would probably be best to not make make judgements on this information until everyone has a chance to investigate it independently.

Which is a good rule in all situations, but goes against the trend of wanting everything now, and not accepting "we don't know yet" as an answer.
 
So this was just typed up for funsies by soneone with too much time on their hands?

Let's start with what we know: It was definitely originally compiled by a former British intelligence agent, this report, a former MI6 man. He did it for what's known as an opposition research company in Washington DC. It's a company I know quite well and have visited often. They were working first of all for Jeb Bush's superpac as it's called in the Republican primaries and then for an anonymous Democratic party donor. The allegations themselves are extremely lurid and out of fairness to Mr Trump and anyone under the age of 18 watching I don't think we should relay them. But here's the crucial point: I was able to send a message into the CIA at the beginning of November to ask them about these allegations. It was illegal for any official to talk to me about them but I got a message back through an intermediary with said the allegations were regarded as credible, and more than that, there was more than a single source for them, not just this MI6 man. There was supposedly more than one tape, not just video but audio, more than one date, and not just in Moscow but in St Petersburg as well. Now obviously if the Russians have blackmail material on Mr Trump they're hardly going to release it, so these are necessarily allegations, but they are allegations that are regarded as credible - that's not the same as saying accurate - but they are regarded as credible by the US intelligence community.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qckj0fGaoSI
 

Boke1879

Member
But it is completely unsubstantiated.
Right now we have hear say, and nothing else.
"But they are investigating, they don't do that for nothing"...
But they did that for emails also...
Sadly this should not have "leaked" before there was something more solid, because this will only give him more fuel.

uhh no. The FBI investigated emails to see if there was anything in there worth looking at. That's not unsubstantiated or "fake news". It's them following a lead.

this is the intelligence communities getting info from credible sources and having to verify it.

The only thing truly leaked was whatever buzzfeed reported.

CNN only leaked that Trump and Obama got a briefing that said Russia had personal and financial info on Trump. CNN didn't leak any documents.
 

Calamari41

41 > 38
Well this is a bit of a contradiction on their part because a lot of people, not just trumpers, ate up the e-mail and Wikileaks bullshit despite a lot of being just that: bullshit.

So I see this ass BuzzFeed thinking, well if Wikileaks & Outlets can dumb entire email archives we might as well put this out there and get people talking.

The difference being, weren't the Wikileaks dumps confirmed to be legitimate? Like, those actually were Podesta's emails and the DNC's emails, right?
 

Maxim726X

Member
I'm not against the media. I just that the media has an agenda and that's ratings and will literally do anything to get them. Even if they take Trump to task now.

What they did during the election was disgusting.

Here here.

BUT- To be fair here, more respectable organizations chose not to run this (despite the traffic this would undoubtedly bring) because it couldn't be confirmed.
 

TyrantII

Member
It's really a shame how Trump has turned the country against the media.

Thats nothing new. This is just the fruit of counter-instituituon seeds planted in the late 70s.

Talk radio has just moved into the internet finally after initially not knowing how to co-opt it. Glen Beck, Brietbart, and Alex Jones figured it out and dialed it to 11. Fake news will be the new norm as traditional journalism continues to wither on the vine in the name of profitability.
 

Piano

Banned
So this is all just hype and conjecture, right?
I'm worried that these sorts of stories have a chilling effect on actual leaks and investigative journalism.
 
The NY Times and many other media outlets were right to not publish this unsubstantiated, unverified document. Wanting something to be true should never be license to publish without verification.
 

Extollere

Sucks at poetry
I'm almost tempted to break a 4 year drought of not visiting 4chan to witness the cognitive dissonance in action but I just can't bring myself to do it.

Jesus... how long has it been for me? Probably like 8 years now. I honestly can't believe that place become a hub for the alt-right. Exactly when did that happen? I don't remember it being that way long ago.
 
The difference being, weren't the Wikileaks dumps confirmed to be legitimate? Like, those actually were Podesta's emails and the DNC's emails, right?

The e-mails, yes, but I'm referring to the stories people made from them (like pizzagate). As it stands right now this report IS real, the question is how verifiable is the information.

Dumb, clicky news sites like Occupy Democrats (http://********************/2017/01...-confirmed-trump-actively-blackmailed-russia/) are the ones who took the CNN story and turned it into YES THIS IS TRUE HES A CRIMINAL
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
Maybe the Russians concocted this document and this is now the second stage of their plans

I don't doubt there is some connections beteeen trump and Russia that were never divulged, however
 

Kyzer

Banned
Jesus... how long has it been for me? Probably like 8 years now. I honestly can't believe that place become a hub for the alt-right. Exactly when did that happen? I don't remember it being that way long ago.

my theory is the original channers were like, being ironically/trollishly racist, but that it became a breeding ground for those ideas and they took actual root and theres probably a whole generation of kids who grew up thinking that shit is real and its cool to be racist and stupid
 
The NY Times and many other media outlets were right to not publish this unsubstantiated, unverified document. Wanting something to be true should never be license to publish without verification.

NY Times would never publish some useless information!

O3qyvNI.png
 

Boke1879

Member
Here here.

BUT- To be fair here, more respectable organizations chose not to run this (despite the traffic this would undoubtedly bring) because it couldn't be confirmed.

No, they are running it. They are just rightfully calling it unverified as of now. That's how you report on these things. And this was going to come out anyway. Too many moving parts trying to get to the bottom of this Russian business.

And now that it's out there. It's never going away and I can imagine McCain and Graham and trying to figure out when to hold hearings on this shit.

This is why I said. Trump and team should have stayed in contact with the ethics committee and why Trump should have released his taxes because we probably wouldn't even be dealing with this right now.
 
On one hand it's risky for Buzzfeed to publish an obviously unverified document. On the other hand, our government (especially the Republicans) and media have done absolutely nothing to investigate or substantiate any ties between Trump and Russia and McConnell and his ilk have gone out of their way to stonewall any attempts. Comey has proven time and time again to be unreliable and dangerous in his position. If publishing the documents all willy nilly to make the public aware creates enough pressure to actually do their fucking jobs, then I'm glad they did.
 
my theory is the original channers were like, being ironically/trollishly racist, but that it became a breeding ground for those ideas and they took actual root and theres probably a whole generation of kids who grew up thinking that shit is real and its cool to be racist and stupid

Poe's Law
 
The media turned the country against the media

Yeah, really. The distrust of the media is something that's been brewing for a long time. Trump was really just the first to go to out and out war with them and rally his base to do the same.

Theres nothing Trump has done or said that could make these reports "not outrageous." They are absolutely HUGE claims that would totally rock the country poliltically. We are not privy to the results and evidence ascertained within the FBIs investigation into Trumps ties to Russia, so therefore any claim to already be in the know or hardly shocked by these claims in the report turning out to be true cannot be anything other than politically and emotionally motivated confirmation bias. "Logic" is not extrapolating into the future and reaching an unsubstantiated conclusion. Conspiracy theories are not logic...

And there you go again, putting words into my mouth. I never said I was in the know, or that this was definitely true, or what I said was hard evidence of anything. What I'm saying is that if there were to end up being true, it's not that outrageous based on all of the stuff that I referenced. Dismissing the whole thing because it sounds crazy doesn't work, because the only thing that sounds is the pissing story. The rest of it would be totally unsurprising, because Trump has basically been riding a heavily Pro-Russia wave for a long time once you go back and look at things. This is not 'confirmation bias' no matter how much you want to paint it as such.
 

Calamari41

41 > 38
The e-mails, yes, but I'm referring to the stories people made from them (like pizzagate). As it stands right now this report IS real, the question is how verifiable is the information.

Dumb, clicky news sites like Occupy Democrats (http://********************/2017/01...-confirmed-trump-actively-blackmailed-russia/) are the ones who took the CNN story and turned it into YES THIS IS TRUE HES A CRIMINAL

Ok thanks, I see what you're saying now. Very true. But I would go further and say that there is far less verifiable here than we saw via Wikileaks during the election. Pizzagate and shit like that was and is insane, of course, but a lot of the shit Clinton and Podesta and the DNC took was based on verified information.
 

Vena

Member
Can I get a quick synopsis on the events over the night while I slept? Where does the report/allegations stand?

I saw the Cohen thing already.
 

Kyzer

Banned
Yeah, really. The distrust of the media is something that's been brewing for a long time. Trump was really just the first to go to out and out war with them and rally his base to do the same.



And there you go again, putting words into my mouth. I never said I was in the know, or that this was definitely true, or what I said was hard evidence of anything. What I'm saying is that if there were to end up being true, it's not that outrageous based on all of the stuff that I referenced. Dismissing the whole thing because it sounds crazy doesn't work, because the only thing that sounds is the pissing story. The rest of it would be totally unsurprising, because Trump has basically been riding a heavily Pro-Russia wave for a long time once you go back and look at things. This is not 'confirmation bias' no matter how much you want to paint it as such.

ok I think we're done, if you don't see what Im saying theres nothing I could do to make you see it. go ahead. MAYBE ITS TRUE!

(ps it is absolutely confirmation bias. you cannot know that Trump always had ties to Russia, only hope or postulate based on what you view and your beliefs. boiling this entire report down to "it turns out trump has some sort of ties to russia" is wholly disingenuous, there are very specific claims and they are absolutely shocking, but ok. btw dismissing something because it sounds crazy is not what Im doing, im being skeptical. also, hoping for it to be true or claiming it to be unsurprising with no evidence is actually just as bad if not worse than dismissing it. )
 

TyrantII

Member
NY Times would never publish some useless information!

O3qyvNI.png

Yeah, but that's the story the right was pushing.

It's not their fault to be fair and balanced and show two sides of a coin they have to push false narratives and untruths because that's all the other side offers.

The false equivilance must be maintained to keep access and an apearance of neutrality.
 
I'm not against the media. I just that the media has an agenda and that's ratings and will literally do anything to get them. Even if they take Trump to task now.

What they did during the election was disgusting.

The handling of Trump throughout the whole election cycle was farcical. How many news channel executives stated how Trump was driving huge ratings for them. Hell, I think the President of CNN said that they fucked up by running his rallies in full. Also the fact that whatever Trump did was given much less air time than perceived items with Clinton. Like Comey's letter the week before the election about potential new emails got much larger airplay than all the controversies that came out about Trump at that time. Hell, the money that went to Bondi before she dropped the investigation into Trump U as a pretty large example of pay for play got less airtime than accusations of pay to play at the Clinton foundation. Really, this election has been atrocious with the media AND its even worse that people are getting worse/fake news from social media and taking that as fact.
 

Barzul

Member
This stuff is unverifiable. Russia would never release it unless they absolutely wanted to embarrass Trump. No serious journalistic institution would've released it, and they didn't, it was Buzzfeed news(lol). The effect it does have is that it adds to the general idea of Trump being in cahoots with Russia, so much so that only his most ardent supporters will see the general idea of that as false. It's why the Clinton stories were effective, not all of them were true. They however fit a narrative that many considered plausible so a lot of people believed them.

Every news org going forward is going to be searching for a smoking gun regarding Trump and Russia and with him looking like he wants to do some sort of purge of the intelligence agencies, there will be folks that will risk trial for treason, almost certain.

The ultimate effect of stuff like this is it does delegitimize his authority. Half the country is laughing at him thinking he likes piss play. If he sues Buzzfeed, will he be in court testifying as POTUS? It'd be even more of a circus act than we are currently seeing.

And it might be unfair because all this stuff is in fact unsubstantiated. But Trump in my eyes stopped being deserving of any semblance of fairness after he led the birther movement.
 

ezrarh

Member
Maybe the Russians concocted this document and this is now the second stage of their plans

I don't doubt there is some connections beteeen trump and Russia that were never divulged, however

I mean, their main goal is to undermine the US, not necessarily have Trump in charge so it's not as crazy as it sounds. Although - Trump being in charge might do the most for undermining US hegemony.
 
Yeah, but that's the story the right was pushing.

It's not their fault to be fair and balanced and show two sides of a coin they have to push false narratives and untruths because that's all the other side offers.

The false equivilance must be maintained to keep access and an apearance of neutrality.

I like how this story has Trump's quote "changes everything". I bet even Trump can't recall what it changed besides unfairly impacting elections :)
 

Hex

Banned
It's really a shame how Trump has turned the country against the media.

The media being incompetent jackasses looking for the most hooplah and drama has been what has been the downfall of the media.
When your journalism has to compete for advertisers and satisfy board members you have an inherent problem.
 
Verifying information of that kind would have required state-like intelligence services, and even the American intelligence community may have a hard time doing so. We are talking about confirming circumstances abroad and several months (if not years) after the fact.

This is also why careless divulgation of the report may play in Trump's favor. Bad journalism usually paves the way of crooks.

If your name weren't highlighted red, you'd be staring down several posters accusing you of spreading FUD and shilling for Trump/Russia. It's ridiculous.

It's also distressing to see how readily and stupidly this wholly unsubstantiated information is being spread. The public faith in media is already very low and the average person lacks the memory to associate the five-second blurb about the following information being unsubstantiated at the top of the segment with the 20 minutes of speculation that follows. They won't remember that blurb: they'll remember the segment and discount the source altogether if holes appear in the story.

Reporting on rumors and innuendo whose substantiating evidence, if it exists at all, cannot or will not be divulged by the source only gives him armor against legitimate criticisms. Any real scandal can be dismissed as "HAH, remember that time when ..."
 
The same people who wanted "transparency" don't want BuzzFeed to release this report?

It's not about the facts in the report. There are clear warnings that the information is unconfirmed and may not be reliable. But in the purpose of "transparency", I don't see why the report should be hidden from the American people if you also believe DNC and Hillary e-mails shouldn't be hidden.

In this post-truth, fake news world, we need ALL the information, good or bad, and use your own skepticism and corroborating facts to decide how you want to perceive it. Fake news isn't leaving, and getting the truth is more difficult than ever, but that's why we must use our own discretion more and more, which means having all the information in front of us.
 
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