This.
We're not going to get so-called "AAA" games for .99, but paying $40-50 for 3DS or VITA games at this point just seems insane.
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Republique Kickstarter by Ryan Payton - NOW FOR PC AND MAC! [Ended, $555K funded]
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This.
We're not going to get so-called "AAA" games for .99, but paying $40-50 for 3DS or VITA games at this point just seems insane.
Zeouterlimits
Member
Bit of an odd one, Ryan's doing a Q&A at FanExpo.
Would expect it for more of a known quantity. Interesting all the same.
Would expect it for more of a known quantity. Interesting all the same.
Camoflaj Facebook said:
GhostWriter24
Member
Sadly, unless this gets some serious funding soon I don't see it happening.
Calculated projections if this continues its current growth:
Lime, you just broke my heart a little.
EternalGamer
Banned
I hate the phrase "a legitimate gaming device.". I accept IOS as legitimate for gaming. It is GREAT for asynchronous quick turn based games like Hero Academy, Words with Friends, Carcasonne, or games designed for quick hit play sessions or while multi-tasking like Infinity Blade, Angry Birds, or Cut The Rope.
These are legitimate games designed to meet the way we use these devices: while multi-tasking between surfing, emailing or watching TV with push notices and turn based play. Or in bite sized doses while waiting for a bus or in the bathroom. What almost nobody does withthese Is devote their sole attention to them for long periods of time. There are games designed that way but very few people play them.
In short, we need a AAA game on the iPhone as badly as we need someone to write an epic narrative using Twitter. People that want great fiction read books and people that want involving games play on consoles and PCs. It's a phone with a 5" screen it is something we use on the go while multi-tasking. This kind of game makes no fucking sense on this platform. There is already a legitimate style of game for this device, it is the kind that already exists. The cheap IPhone games are the new arcade. Pay a buck, get something cool to play. There is nothing wrong with this model.
I know Payton and crew think they are playing to these devices strengths, but they really aren't. They are ignoring the way people use these devices for gaming and the style of gaming they want from them.
toythatkills
Member
Calculated projections if this continues its current growth:
That graph makes no sense. They've just gone "oh, it's a third of the way through so we'll assume they'll make 3x what they've made now."
In reality, it's heading for about $100k.
I'm not necessarily agreeing with him, but everytime the debate of AAA gaming on an iPhone arises, I always think of this video with David Lynch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKiIroiCvZ0&hd=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKiIroiCvZ0&hd=1
I dont really understand why you guys want it on pc so bad when Ryan has clearly said it is evisioned and designed from the ground up for touch controls. A vita/3ds version would be more understandable.
It's hard to know whether this is an exposure problem or just that there isn't enough demand for this kind of game on iOS at the moment. I hope it isn't the latter.
It's hard to know whether this is an exposure problem or just that there isn't enough demand for this kind of game on iOS at the moment. I hope it isn't the latter.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
Is it really?
The bottom line is that Ryan has already said it would be possible to revamp the game so that it suits the PC. One of the original platforms that it was planned for, way back, was Steam. He is simply choosing not to target the PC. This is not a matter of limitations. It's a deliberate choice. He now says that they don't have the resources for it? Reallocate those resources. PC should be the lead platform, not an afterthought.
Probably because some of us would like to give Camoflaj money to play the game but we either don't have the inclination to play games on iOS or don't have the ability (no iOS device). Touch controls would translate pretty easily to mouse clicking. Even something like multi-touch could easily be implemented by say, holding the space bar to denote that you're going to be inputting multiple clicks to take place simultaneously.
Ugh. Please don't listen to this sort of stuff. Previous threads about iOS on this board should tell you where the above is primarily motivated. There are a ton of different discussion points on this topic that can and have be discussed, but the idiotic 'core gamer' OS wars that have dominated this board on the subject should be taken with a grain of salt.
I'd imagine, Ryan, that I probably don't need to tell you this. Still, seeing it laid out as 'advice' in a place where honest discussion has been requested is unfortunate.
toythatkills
Member
For me it's the fact that I would NEVER invest money in a iOS product without some kind of demonstration of exactly how it'll play. There are far too many games that have shit controls and are zero fun as a result, and it's too big a risk.
EternalGamer
Banned
Because it is the most open and indie friendly platform. No publisher or distribution costs or licencing fees and a large potential audience. From what has been explained about the games concept, I dont see anything that couldn't work with a mouse and headset. Even the hacking motif makes more sense on a PC.
Wait, a game that is specifically designed for this platform (and that doesn't really exist yet) has no business being on it? I think your ire is misplaced a bit. How is this any different than it being an exclusive for the PSP or DS? I'm someone who wants "involving" games regardless of platform, just because they don't exist yet on iOS doesn't mean they shouldn't.
EDIT: also, this isn't iPhone exclusive, which is how your argument reads, it's iOS, which means iPod Touch and iPad as well.
B_Rik_Schitthaus
Banned
Completely unrelated I've been playing Superbrothers Sword & Sworcery EP on my laptop recently...
But points to a reason why there aren't many.
Dog Problems
Banned
You except iOS as legitimate for gaming yet you think all that should be on it are quick pick up and play games? That makes no sense. I think a truly legitimate gaming device will offer something for everything. People can have their Angry Birds style games while others can have a deeper experience that's typically found elsewhere.
This kind of narrow-minded thinking is what I don't understand. Why shouldn't I expect a "AAA" experience on a phone or tablet? Why shouldn't developers try and achieve something that is very possible? I hate these predefined notions, like great fiction can only be obtained in a book or phones are meant for Angry Birds style games.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
I challenge you to show me where I have participated in such threads. You are perfectly at liberty to stick your head in the sand, but those pledge numbers are not rising any faster and pretending that core gamers don't exist will not do Ryan any favors. It's really quite absurd. People are literally trying to argue that there's no such thing as a core gamer.
If you don't think that this Kickstarter is suffering from a demographic mismatch, feel free to provide your own alternative explanation instead of whining about others. The only ones pushing an agenda here are posters like Vyer who are clearly not numerous enough to muster up half a million dollars and are not interested in adding anything constructive. They only want to sell more iPhones and would be happy to see Ryan bankrupt himself for that cause.
Was really excited to see that hit Steam after hearing Patrick Klepek talk it up on the Bombcast. Finally got to try it out.
So you're saying pick up and play games aren't legitimate?
I dunno, I think the term "legitimate gaming device" is dumb anyway. iOS and 3DS/Vita are both legitimate in their own way. They just offer different experiences for different demographics.
B_Rik_Schitthaus
Banned
Really great so far, the animation of the deer running into the brush is something special.
I would agree that it is an indicator, but I don't get why it's the case. The devices are more than capable of delivering meaningful experiences. Is it because they aren't marketed as game playing devices exclusively? At some point that type of thinking has to shift.
Dog Problems
Banned
Those kind of games are definitely legitimate but as I said a legitimate gaming device will offer something for everyone. Right now iOS doesn't offer much in terms of that "AAA" or "console-like" experience, it's lacking in that area so in my eyes it's not quite up there with the 3DS or Vita. 3DS and Vita both offer something for everyone, where as iOS is more on the pick up and play side of things rather than sitting for hours and getting absorbed into a world. Yeah, there's exceptions but there aren't many.
EternalGamer
Banned
They do exist on the platform. There ARE involving RPGs and adventure games and even MMOs just nobody wants to play them. And it is not because of production values or even controls, it is because nobody wants to stare at their phone for hours giving a game their uninterrupted attention. That isn't how we game on these devices. You can say it was "specifically designed for the platform" all day but if it doesn't consider how people are using the device, then it simply isn't.
Again, it is like trying to write a novel on twitter. You can do it and claim it is because you want to "prove" twitter can be a legitimate platform for serious writing. You can do it, it is just sort of dumb.
The clearest analog for IOS gaming is the arcade because both are primarily social environments and both involve generally small time and money investments (quarter in 1985 = a $0.99 game today). The arcade, like the IOS provides a totally legitimate gaming experience. You could make an epic RPG for the arcade with memory system that tracks players that takes dozens of hours to complete, but it would be pretty stupid. People just dont want that from an arcade game. They also don't want it from a game on IOS.
EternalGamer
Banned
Tht was exactly my point.
$0.99. The more limited primary means of input doesn't help either.
There will eventually be AAA experiences on touch devices but since there's not already a market with it's associated audience on iOS, Camoflaj doesn't have an audience to pitch this Kickstarter to. They have to pitch it to current iOS users (mostly casual users) or to the core gamer. The majority of the former doesn't know about Republique and/or doesn't know if it's a game they want and the majority of the latter would prefer their games on traditional platforms. So what would you do in this situation? They need the funding and iOS gamers don't seem to be lining up for many Kickstarter ideas.
B_Rik_Schitthaus
Banned
For a lot of publishers in the IOS space they use a term 'Freemium', base giving the base game for free and finding ways of getting people to spend small amounts of real money of upgrades, perks or trinkets.
This way of thinking has come about due to people buying habits of very low cost games, but then if that game gets them hooked spending lots inside of it, this favours puzzle or completive games.
I hope this project gets made and has success but it looks like it's trying to find any and all tides to swim against.
Sorry if parts don't make sense, I'm tired as hell.
Dog Problems
Banned
Yeah, there are exceptions like Avadon or the DS port of Final Fantasy 3. Avadon is an obscure CRPG that doesn't exactly appeal to a large group and anyone interested in that version of Final Fantasy 3 has already played it on the DS. Chaos Rings, while not bad at all, is still a shallow experience compared to what usually comes out on other handhelds. And why wouldn't people want to stare at an iPhone all day? They've stared at a DS screen for hours so how is this any different?
I love iOS gaming but some genres aren't quite "there" while others excel greatly.
Also, what MMOs are you talking about? I'm honestly unaware of any on iOS.
I guess our POVs are different then because in my experience people DO spend hours and hours and hours on their iDevices playing games. It may not be 9 hours straight, but that's no different than any other portable device. Maybe Ryan can jump in at some point and explain how the game caters to portable sensibilities and stuff like that, because I don't want to speculate.
I think you make some good points, but I'm personally having trouble seeing how one portable device is different from another regardless of its primary function.
Some genres will never be well represented until some sort of official gamepad gains traction. Expecting otherwise is being unrealistic.
Dog Problems
Banned
You're right and as I mentioned on the last page that's definitely one of the biggest obstacles iOS gaming has. I have no idea what to do about it which is why I'm disheartened over this Kickstarter project. It's clearly an ambitious game that has the potential to help change the idea that people have regarding iOS.
For a genre like first-person shooters I definitely agree. But I do think some genres can be played perfectly fine once someone adapts. I absolutely hated 2D platformers when I first started but now I'm perfectly comfortable with them. There's just a learning curve that needs overcome.
Do you apply this same logic to handhelds like the PSP, Vita, DS and 3DS?
You are taking this topic and trying to legitimize the usual crap that gets spewed in mobie games threads here. Namely, limit a platform's games and generalize its users or what they 'want'. I wonder how eagerly you'd try that in other game threads, about other platforms.
As amazingly difficult as it is seems to be for some to process, there are lots of gamers who are capable of enjoying multiple game experiences, and multiple platforms, and do so. Go into the iOS or Android thread and tell everyone there that they aren't 'core' or real gamers and shouldn't have any different game experiences to play and see how that flies. That's essentially what you were trying to accomplish in that post.
It's entirely possible that Kickstarter is dominated by a gamer of one demographic - as mentioned before - primarily PC. And the results of the fundraising on that site reflect that. To take that, and this event and try and extrapolate it as you've done shows that one of us does indeed have his 'head in the sand', though it is likely you are doing so quite knowingly and happily as it fits the narrative you want to create.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
I have never even read any of the threads you're talking about, but your paranoia and persecution complex is noted. You appear to genuinely believe that there are no differences between the iOS userbase and the core gaming demographic. A rational conversation with you will not be possible. Let us agree to disagree.
I do find it completely puzzling that you will admit this, but not admit that that demographic might not like iOS very much. Some of the arguments in this thread are just weird.
BurritoBushido
Member
I am depressed by the rate at which they are gaining money
EternalGamer
Banned
Why do you think those devices are losing popularity and portable gaming revenue is now much bigger on IOS devices than those? Granted, I accept that some people gaming on those devices still want "consoles in the palm of their hand" but that's a shrinking group. At the very least, it is obviously true that the way most people game on IOS devices do not follow this traditional model.
I obviously can't speak for everyone here, but I think I am speaking for the vast majority. Ask yourself how common it is to see "big budget" that use motion capturing and professional voice work even on the DS or Vita (markets that, as I accept, have a bigger audience for that sort of thing). So if it doesn't happen on these devices likely to have the type of audience that would be more likely to want that sort of thing, why would it make sense on a device with an even smaller audience for that type of experience?
EternalGamer
Banned
Were you "disheartened" in the 1980 and 90s when no Arcade games cost $10 to play and took 20 hours to complete? Did it bum you out that they all cost a quarter and could be finished in a matter of an hour at most? Every platform doesn't need the same style of games else there wouldn't even be a need for different platforms to begin with.
EternalGamer
Banned
Why wouldn't they? Because people are using using them as portable devices, which means they are using them while in the process of going somewhere or doing something else.
Be honest here, if somebody came to you with your favorite "AAA" series and said: we can either make this sequel for consoles or for portables, would you really ever want them to make it for the portable instead?
I guess I can see someone who has to travel a lot wanting that. I don't really understand why anybody else would want to devote large amounts of their undivided attention to a tiny screen when they could be be doing it on a bigger one. The reason portables gaming is cool is that you can do it while going places and doing other things not instead of going other places and doing other things.
Dog Problems
Banned
Yeah, I was always upset that the arcade games I really liked were too short. I do think every platform needs the same style of games. If Nintendo and Sony saw that Apple and Android devices were getting games at the same quality level as what they have and it was effecting their sales, it'll push them harder to do something better. And assuming Apple took gaming more seriously, the success of Nintendo and Sony would motivate them to get more exclusives on their end.
Lol, not surprising. Can I throw my hands up in fake exasperation and call you paranoid too? I mean, since you are all 'fearing the future' and stuff. Then we can both check that box on the Bad Internet Debate handbook.
Where did I say that? Puzzling. Also puzzling that you understand Kickstarter's possible gaming audience, but think that means 'all' 'core gamers' have spoken. Weird, that.
Dog Problems
Banned
Did it ever occur to you that people like playing a portable over a PC or console? I've owned a lot of portable gaming devices and not a single one has ever been for the purpose of when I'm away. They are always played at home and I'm far from the minority in that regard.
As for your question, in total honestly; yes, I would choose to have it portable. The size of the screen is irrelevant as I've noticed over time I'm getting tired of having to be in a dedicated space to play a game. I'd much rather have the ability to take it with me anywhere I go. A laptop can fix that but it's still somewhat of an inconvenience compared to a tablet or other handheld.
I don't know, I think you underestimate the amount of time people spend playing portables while hanging out on the couch or around the house. Just because I walk in my front door doesn't mean my Vita is off limits or whatever. Trust me, if my GF is engrossed in something on the main tv, I'm SOL when it comes to gaming. Besides, who says Republique is the type of game you'd want to play on your big screen and not while you're dropping a deuce on the BART (it's where I go to do my business ^_^)?
I think the mindset that these devices should only be used for one type of thing by one type of person is silly. This thread is filled with so many different opinions. I think the hope here is that there are enough of a certain type of player that this game will succeed. It's looking very much like people on your side of the fence will be proven right.
EternalGamer
Banned
And when they brought those games to home consoles, many of them added extra levels and more features because they were adapting to those platform and its strengths. It made sense for arcade games to be less than an hour with "unlimited" continues. It made less sense for a $50 game to be that short.
Well, I obviously disagree with you. The medium shapes the media, to crib from Marshal McLuhan. But more importantly, Ryan Payton disagrees with you too because one of the big arguments they are making is that they are designing their games specifically for this platform. My response is that they claim they are, but they really aren't because they are ignoring the type of games and the ways people use the platform.
I guess this is just where we talk past each other because when you say things like "same quality level" and imply that Apple is not "serious" about gaming that stuff means that you think the current style of IOS game isn't really "quality" and isn't "serious." I would on the other hand, argue that both of these assumptions are wrong. They are quality games and they are serious games because they are games designed with the platform and the way people use it specifically in mind. I don't know how you can take a platform more "serious" than that.
EternalGamer
Banned
It is possible it is, but I certainly don't get that vibe from the teaser and the kickstarter video. I get the sense that they want to make a "serious" game that demands your attention and has something to say. Indeed, Payton says that much explictly. I don't think he is designing the kind of game you play while looking over it at the TV or in 2 minute doses. Perhaps he can disabuse me if I'm wrong, though.
Well, don't get me wrong. I LIKE the concept of the game. Hell, despite my disagreement with the platform choice, I actually donated toward the game. I also really respect Payton's idea that he wants to make games that address more serious issues. I just think this is totally the wrong platform for his vision. I think they just fell in love with one particular gimmick like the phone aspect and ignored questions like how these devices are used, where their core audience will most likely be, and what would be the best platform for a indie start up to launch with their type of vision to launch their game on.
Yeah that could be true, the vibe I got was that this game is going to be something that is AAA quality in terms of presentation and all that but you could play in reasonable chunks. Sort of like a clear a room/do an objective type of thing maybe 5-10 minutes at a time. There are maybe just a few too many unknowns there and it's certainly hard to tell from the proof of concept.
I know he mentioned that it was sandboxy, but for some reason I envisioned a game space similar to MGS1.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
Within the context of my post I clearly defined core gamers as the enthusiasts on PC who have propelled Kickstarter games to success. Quote: "We are happy right where we are and always have been, on the PC." Ryan wants to know why his Kickstarter isn't succeeding. I explained why. You're saying that core gamers don't like iOS, but they are no different from iOS users? And trying to cry about some threads that have nothing to do with this one?
If you want to continue some weird discussion you were having elsewhere with someone else then please do that there, this thread is about the Republique Kickstarter.
EternalGamer
Banned
MGS1 is the vibe I kind of got, but I dont' really consider that a game designed to be played in small chunks.
Infinity Blade is a good example of game that works really well in small chunks even though it has high production values. Each battle is self contained and has a rewarding "level up" screen afterwards. It gives you a nice sense of closure and a place to stop every 1-2 minutes.
EternalGamer
Banned
You did clearly indicate that you saw IOS gaming as some sort of threat, which is a bit of paranoia. It's simply a different format with a different style of gaming. I play Hero Academy while watching the news, during commercials or waiting for lunch. I don't play it instead of big budget console games.
There are people that only play IOS games but they are the type of people who wouldn't be playing PC or console games anyway.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
I honestly don't care what you call it, and that wasn't his argument anyway. I'm still not entirely sure what he was trying to argue, or who he thought he was arguing against, or oh god how did I get here I am not good with computer.