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[Vyer]

Within the context of my post I clearly defined core gamers as the enthusiasts on PC

Just one of the reasons that post was unfortunate to begin with. whatever definition you want to conjure up as a 'core gamer' is irrelevant. Trying to turn a kickstarter project into a inane 'fear for the future' rant on how ambitious projects like this should essentially be denied the platform was ridiculous, and remains so.

I'm out.

Sweet! Animated Gif checkbox checked. It's almost like bingo!

Onward to that next post where you tell more people you have judged them as gamers and what they may and may not play!

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Just one of the reasons that post was unfortunate to begin with. whatever definition you want to conjure up as a 'core gamer' is irrelevant. Trying to turn a kickstarter project into a inane 'fear for the future' rant on how ambitious projects like this should essentially be denied the platform was ridiculous, and remains so.

Sweet! Animated Gif checkbox checked. It's almost like bingo!

Onward to that next post where you tell more people you have judged them as gamers and what they may and may not play!

I still have no clue who you think you're talking to or what you think they're saying, but man I'll feel sorry for them when you finally find them in whichever thread you have mistaken this one for.

 

[EternalGamer]

I still have no clue who you think you're talking to or what you think they're saying, but man I'll feel sorry for them when you finally find them in whichever thread you have mistaken this one for.

i believe he means this:

Ignis Fatuus]We don't want iOS to be that platform. We are happy right where we are and always have been, on the PC. As more and more companies slouch towards Apple, we are told that it is inevitable that they will swallow core gaming as well. Whether that is true or not, it will certainly not happen with our facilitation. You are essentially asking us to help realize the future we fear most.

That's pretty tin foil hat right there.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

i believe he means this:

That's pretty tin foil hat right there.

Show me where his earlier posts in this thread were complaining about that? That's your beef, but I think he might be pretending that it was his all along now that he realizes he's been having a conversation with the self.

 

[Dog Problems]

And when they brought those games to home consoles, many of them added extra levels and more features because they were adapting to those platform and its strengths. It made sense for arcade games to be less than an hour with "unlimited" continues. It made less sense for a $50 game to be that short.

I don't know, it never made sense to me. I had no problems standing there for hours and would have happily done so to complete a game. If it got ported with no content I'd happily spend whatever it cost to have it at home. I'm probably in the minority on that one.

Well, I obviously disagree with you. The medium shapes the media, to crib from Marshal McLuhan. But more importantly, Ryan Payton disagrees with you too because one of the big arguments they are making is that they are designing their games specifically for this platform. My response is that they claim they are, but they really aren't because they are ignoring the type of games and the ways people use the platform.

Well, the idea of Republique is just one of many steps in iOS devices having "AAA" kind of games. I see it as attracting people to the platform by making a game suited for the device and once people have become comfortable enough, start coming out with more traditional games that you wouldn't typically see on a phone. Whether Ryan's team would do that, I don't know. But maybe it'd motivate other developers to go that route.

I guess this is just where we talk past each other because when you say things like "same quality level" and imply that Apple is not "serious" about gaming that stuff means that you think the current style of IOS game isn't really "quality" and isn't "serious." I would on the other hand, argue that both of these assumptions are wrong. They are quality games and they are serious games because they are games designed with the platform and the way people use it specifically in mind. I don't know how you can take a platform more "serious" than that.

You can make it more serious by catering to people beyond what's commonly played. Right now there are gamers that have no interest in gaming on a phone or tablet because there's nothing that appeals to them. But put something like Super Mario 3D Land or Gravity Rush on there and they'll possibly have a change of heart. (obviously not those two examples)

 

[Vyer]

Show me where his earlier posts in this thread were complaining about that? That's your beef, but I think he might be pretending that it was his all along now that he realizes he's been having a conversation with the self.

What do you think mobile gaming threads have been focused on? Discussion about the 'future' of gaming thanks to mobile OSes have been one of the major compenent of the issue here on GAF.

You had that in your post. Then you took it a step further, and tried to take a single Kickstarter (which may have just been a case of the wrong demographic) and create 'advice' generalizing 'core gamers' and an entire platform.

I believe the simple fact is that core gamers by and large do not want to play on iOS.

We don't want iOS to be that platform.

You are essentially asking us to help realize the future we fear most.

Core gamers have a long memory. Don't leave us out in the cold.

Many gamers can play many different platforms. You were essentially doing some sort of odd platform begging, framing it with the a little paranoia on the future of gaming. Ridiculous.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Then you took it a step further, and tried to take a single Kickstarter (which may have just been a case of the wrong demographic) and create 'advice' generalizing 'core gamers' and an entire platform.

Many gamers can play many different platforms. You were essentially doing some sort of odd platform begging, framing it with the a little paranoia on the future of gaming. Ridiculous.

You are a very persistent troll, but I'm pretty convinced that's all you are now. You're still pretending that I wasn't talking about PC gamers, hadn't made that explicit in my post, and haven't clarified it since. You flat out admitted that PC gamers don't like iOS but are now struggling to argue that they really do like iOS games. Intellectual dishonesty and cognitive dissonance taken to a new level of weird. Either a master troll, or pathetic damage control after being caught trying to act like this is some other discussion from another thread. Either way, I assure you that I'm not interested in taking the bait.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

You are a very persistent troll, but I'm pretty convinced that's all you are now. You're still pretending that I wasn't talking about PC gamers, hadn't made that explicit in my post, and haven't clarified it since. You flat out admitted that PC gamers don't like iOS but are now struggling to argue that they really do like iOS games. Intellectual dishonesty and cognitive dissonance taken to a new level of weird. Either a master troll, or pathetic damage control after being caught trying to act like this is some other discussion from another thread. Either way, I assure you that I'm not interested in taking the bait.

Ether.

 

[novery]

Thank you for responding. If you have the time, I recommend that you go back a few pages and just read some of the comments that people have made since you last posted. There's a lot of good perspective there. Here's just a few examples:

Thank you, Ignis, for providing those links. This is awesome. Again, I'm sorry for not checking this page this week. (I haven't had time to check GAF since the weekend, which I think is a first for me!)

We don't want iOS to be that platform. We are happy right where we are and always have been, on the PC. As more and more companies slouch towards Apple, we are told that it is inevitable that they will swallow core gaming as well. Whether that is true or not, it will certainly not happen with our facilitation. You are essentially asking us to help realize the future we fear most.

Your comments here, to me, are fascinating. I follow your logic and respect your opinion, even though I don't agree with everything. What might be really interesting is recording a one-off podcast discussion with you about this subject. I have a feeling some will tell me this is bad PR, but whatever, I think it would be really cool. Or, if you prefer, we can discuss this here.

I think the core of my disagreement is that I don't fear iOS or Apple, I don't think they will kill PC, and I think mobile touch devices can offer fresh gameplay experiences that currently don't exist. Hence, I don't think you should reject iOS as a viable gaming platform. I do, however, think you should demand better games than the garbage so many game companies are putting out on iOS and Android.

With Republique, this is how I have approached the design and story of the game. This is me opening up my mind and heart as to why I'm even in this industry:

-I believe 18-button game controllers significantly limit the appeal of the medium we love so much

-I lament that many of my favorite games of all-time (MGS3 / Bioshock) can't be played by my friends and family because: A) They refuse to buy a $300 console B) They are intimidated by the controller C) They suck at dual analog controls D) They don't want to game in front of a TV (plus loads of other reasons)

-There are roughly 400 million iOS devices out in the wild

-iOS devices allow for simple, almost-primal input methods (even babies can work an iPad)

-Hundreds of millions are people games on these devices, many of whom wouldn't consider buying a PS3 to play The Last Guardian

-Most of the games on iOS, in my opinion, have zero meaning and cultural relevance, and I don't see this changing any time soon. (Thankfully there are games like Sword & Sworcery out there classing up the joint, though!)

-I have and will continue to dedicate my life and career to this medium I love so much. My goal has been to create big, innovative, meaningful games for as many people on this planet as possible. I think games have the capacity to touch people on a deeper level than even the best films... I want to be part of this challenge.

-We decided to challenge ourselves to realize our vision for a game that doesn't currently exist on any platform: A game all about your connection with an AI on the other side of your phone... A game all about the big brother / 1984 craziness that's going on in the world right now... A game with deep and awesome gameplay that anybody can jump in and play...

This is how we landed on iOS and the vision for Republique. The onus is on us to prove to the world that this game is unlike anything you've played before, in large part because it's being carefully crafted for touch and mobile.

That's where my brain is right now.

Curious what everybody thinks!

 

[Vyer]

You flat out admitted that PC gamers don't like iOS but are now struggling to argue that they really do like iOS games.

Where?

And why do you think that your definition of 'core gamers' as 'PC gamers on Kickstarter' is valid?

Do you think that everyone in the Android and iOS gaming threads is not a core gamer? Or that they would not like to try some unique, new experiences on that platform? Why are you trying to push a developer away from it by telling him they don't exist there?

Intellectual dishonesty and cognitive dissonance taken to a new level of weird. Either a master troll, or pathetic damage control

Yes, this sums up your deflects and dodging quite nicely. You can just walk away if you can't discuss your claims. It happens.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Thread is getting shit up with some personal vendetta garbage.

Anyway, thanks for the honest post, Ryan... you may have just sold me over.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Ether.

Word.

Your comments here, to me, are fascinating. I follow your logic and respect your opinion, even though I don't agree with everything. What might be really interesting is recording a one-off podcast discussion with you about this subject. I have a feeling some will tell me this is bad PR, but whatever, I think it would be really cool. Or, if you prefer, we can discuss this here.

I'm definitely down. Send me a PM and we can work out the details.

 

[lostxii]

They do exist on the platform. There ARE involving RPGs and adventure games and even MMOs just nobody wants to play them. And it is not because of production values or even controls, it is because nobody wants to stare at their phone for hours giving a game their uninterrupted attention. That isn't how we game on these devices. You can say it was "specifically designed for the platform" all day but if it doesn't consider how people are using the device, then it simply isn't.

Again, it is like trying to write a novel on twitter. You can do it and claim it is because you want to "prove" twitter can be a legitimate platform for serious writing. You can do it, it is just sort of dumb.

The clearest analog for IOS gaming is the arcade because both are primarily social environments and both involve generally small time and money investments (quarter in 1985 = a $0.99 game today). The arcade, like the IOS provides a totally legitimate gaming experience. You could make an epic RPG for the arcade with memory system that tracks players that takes dozens of hours to complete, but it would be pretty stupid. People just dont want that from an arcade game. They also don't want it from a game on IOS.

I don't where you got this from. Adventure games, in particular, have been quite successful on IOS.

 

[EternalGamer]

With Republique, this is how I have approached the design and story of the game. This is me opening up my mind and heart as to why I'm even in this industry:

Observe by your own logic:

-There are a lot of people who don't read books.

-There are millions more that use Twitter and Facebook regularly.

- Books are intimidating, large, and time consuming to a lot of people

-There are very few tweets or Facebook posts about important issues they way there is in books.

-Therefore, I think prominent writers should write their novels and fiction books on Twitter and Facebook instead of in books.

See the problem with this type of logic? It ignores the medium in question and how and why people use it.

 

[Vyer]

Thread is getting shit up with some personal vendetta garbage.
.

I don't feel that way, I just think it's wrong to use a Kickstarter project to reject the notion of trying new and unique gaming on a platform that needs more of it. The audience is too large to pigeonhole 'core gamers' as one subset or as a group that would not like to see games continue to expand.

 

[Sallokin]

Observe by your own logic:

-There are a lot of people who don't read books

-There are millions more that use twitter and Facebook regularly.

- Books are intimidating to a lot of people

-There are very few tweets or facebook posts about important issues they way there is in books.

-Therefore, I think prominent writers should write their novels and fiction books on Twitter and Facebook.

See the problem with this type of logic? It ignores the medium in question and how and why people use it.

You realize now that some famous author is going to do this now, right? You're giving away golden ideas, man!

 

[EternalGamer]

A game all about the big brother / 1984 craziness that's going on in the world right now...

Maybe you still live in the era of Cold War politics, but I dont think Orwell is the timely model any more. There is a better sci-fi classic that speaks to our current conditon profoundly:

http://www.prosebeforehos.com/image...nfinite-distraction-or-government-oppression/

 

[Himajin]

I don't have any problem with iOS being the platform. I'm playing and looking forward to plenty of iOS games with depth beyond the usual touch gaming fare, like Hunters 2 (an X-COM style game) and Legend of Grimrock (a Dungeon Master clone coming to iOS and already out on PC).

Despite the game sounding unique, the premise alone isn't enough to hook me into putting down cash at this point. The difference with other kickstarters I've jumped on is they remind me of an experience I've already played and know I'll enjoy. I get the feeling that kickstarter is not the best platform to try and sell a new concept to gamers.

 

[novery]

Observe by your own logic:

-There are a lot of people who don't read books.

-There are millions more that use Twitter and Facebook regularly.

- Books are intimidating, large, and time consuming to a lot of people

-There are very few tweets or Facebook posts about important issues they way there is in books.

-Therefore, I think prominent writers should write their novels and fiction books on Twitter and Facebook instead of in books.

See the problem with this type of logic? It ignores the medium in question and how and why people use it.

Is this a joke post?

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Is this a joke post?

Damn I'm pledging $10 right now just because you had the balls to do that.

 

[novery]

Damn I'm pledging $10 right now just because you had the balls to do that.

Come on a podcast with me.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

My problem, Payton, is that anyone can pitch an idea. The sort of people who can sell a game are those that didn't strive for the glamorous and grandiose when they first started earning their stripes, but rather earnt their stripes but working their asses off proving some basic skills to their audience. They created something that proves that they're more than ideas-men. They're more than a story in a video game. They're more than throwing money at motion-capture sessions. They're more than "emotionally-moving" cutscenes. They're more than expensive voice-acting. They're more than the topic-of-the-month in the news. They're more than a stringer at the end of a trailer. They proved that they can get shit done, on-time, on-target to a relevant audience and on-budget (else have a firm understanding of why they weren't and can demonstrate how they'll avoid it in the future).

I haven't seen any real evidence that there's much of a strategy for getting people interested in this game other than "I know there's people who want AAA games on the iOS platform and I know people would play more games if they were more readily accessible, and I want to be the one to prove it". That's not something I can get behind. It feels like team of creators who want to make something because it's sexy, rather than practical. A top-down, concept-driven approach to design is all well and good if you're either working with a proven team or a very-low-budget (indie, for lack of a better word) title, but I struggle to get behind it when I'm being pitched that sort of thing from people that haven't earnt their stripes as a team. I'm much more impressed when I see a damn solid bottom-up, design-driven pitch from new teams. It tells me that the team has their priorities in order. It tells me that they'll be able to reasonably budget and schedule the project. It tells me that they're not in it for the sexiness of the project, they're in it because they have some solid, fleshed-out gameplay-driven ideas that they believe they can implement 'better' (or at least differently) than anyone else.

The iOS thing is probably a problem, but I feel like it's only a symptom of the larger problem with the pitch, and perhaps even the project in general. I'd hope that moving forward, successful or not, that larger-lessons are learnt. If not just for this team, than certainly for others looking to start projects on Kickstarter.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Come on a podcast with me.

It would be my pleasure. Check your private messages.

 

[EternalGamer]

Is this a joke post?

No. I thought my point was pretty clear. The type of gaming experiences people look for on these devices is akin to the type of conversation people have on Twitter or Facebook. They are not platforms designed to cater to indepth, complex narratives of fiction or the serious nuanced arguments of non-fiction.

IOS platform is for the type of gaming you do while multi-tasking or in small bites. People play while watching TV or going to the bathroom or waiting for a bus.

Trying to create a serious "message" game with high production values on the platform makes as much sense as trying to write an elaborate novel on Twitter. You are ignoring how the majority of the audience uses the medium.

 

[EternalGamer]

It would be my pleasure. Check your private messages.

I'll give Payton credit. He knows how to pick a straw man.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

I'll give Payton credit. He knows how to pick a straw man.

Stay salty, my friend.

 

[Vyer]

I hope you guys work out that podcast because I'd love to listen. I don't have any personal issue with you Ignis, (no matter how many things you call me!) I just completely disagree with a lot of the 'core gamer' generalizations or people like Ryan being turned away from doing this kind of thing because of them. The Kickstarter-as-the-wrong-outlet angle may have merit, but I don't buy into the extrapolations out of that.

Regardless, I think it'd be a real interesting discussion. Good luck.

 

[numble]

Ether.

Where does Vyer say any of those things? Admitting that Kickstarter is dominated by PC gamers does not mean that all core gamers have spoken. It's a huge extrapolation to define audience potential based on Kickstarter potential. There have been no successes for console Kickstarters, that doesn't mean core gamers or console gamers aren't looking for core games on consoles. The only thing that it and other Kickstarters demonstrate so far is that Kickstarter potential is PC enthusiast potential. I think the millions spent by Gameloft to make core games on iOS (and they haven't stopped) and the sales of those games despite just being mediocre copycats of major franchises (Modern Combat 3 was #1 on the Chinese App Store of all places a couple of weeks ago), the success of Sword and Sworcery, the success of Telltale despite putting out mediocre ports, and that EA and Epic keep making games like Dead Space, Mass Effect, and the IB series of the platform, say something completely different.

 

[boingball]

No. I thought my point was pretty clear. The type of gaming experiences people look for on these devices is akin to the type of conversation people have on Twitter or Facebook. They are not platforms designed to cater to indepth, complex narratives of fiction or the serious nuanced arguments of non-fiction.

IOS platform is for the type of gaming you do while multi-tasking or in small bites. People play while watching TV or going to the bathroom or waiting for a bus.

Trying to create a serious "message" game with high production values on the platform makes as much sense as trying to write an elaborate novel on Twitter. You are ignoring how the majority of the audience uses the medium.

So you think the Kindle app for the iPhone / iPad is a joke as well?

What about other mobile platforms like PSP/Vita and DS? Those have quite a few RPGs on them as well.


If you look at what Ryan said:
He wants to make games with a scope as they have on PC/console, optimized for the new input medium (only touch-control) and sell it to Mom&Pop playing Angry Birds.

This is an interesting idea, which I believe will fail. Same as the Wii brought in a lot of people playing Wii Sports and Wii Fit but none of them went then on to play Metroid or Zelda.

Nonetheless it is his vision and it is his right to proof all the nay-sayers wrong (or to fail). Though he wont probably get Kickstarter funding for his vision.

 

[daegan]

No. I thought my point was pretty clear. The type of gaming experiences people look for on these devices is akin to the type of conversation people have on Twitter or Facebook. They are not platforms designed to cater to indepth, complex narratives of fiction or the serious nuanced arguments of non-fiction.

IOS platform is for the type of gaming you do while multi-tasking or in small bites. People play while watching TV or going to the bathroom or waiting for a bus.

Trying to create a serious "message" game with high production values on the platform makes as much sense as trying to write an elaborate novel on Twitter. You are ignoring how the majority of the audience uses the medium.

The actual point he's trying to make, though, is all about causing people to change their mind. If people were given a good, lasting experience they wouldn't just play for 20 minutes on the train or whatever, but maybe at home. I know I spent a heck of a lot more time than that at once on Superbrothers: Sword & Sworcery EP.

 

[bonesmccoy]

I find this kickstarter and the discussion it's generated fascinating! This is the kind of conversation that I like to stumble upon while browsing through GAF.

To the actual fellow behind this game: Who is the target audience for this product? I see a lot of comments about reaching the iOS install base, but not any clear elaboration on what part of this base has been identified as likely purchasers. You've been talking about accessing the 'normal' iOS user - did you do any kind of focus-group testing to see if this was the kind of game that group would be interested in?

 

[Aaron]

I think this is the same situation with the Wii. Developers saw how much the console sold and started actually making the serious games they thought the fans wanted, but those games got awful sales because that wasn't what the majority of Wii owners wanted. A massive install base doesn't mean anything if no one in that base is interested in your product. Even though I backed this game and would love to play it, I'm in the very small minority of ios users. The harsh fact is most people with ios devices don't want this.

Honestly, I think Infinity Blade would have done badly if it hadn't been heavily promoted by Apple, and been a wow for graphics at the time. Even with the new ipad the wow period for graphics is over. People want just small, fun things.

 

[morningbus]

I think this is the same situation with the Wii. Developers saw how much the console sold and started actually making the serious games they thought the fans wanted, but those games got awful sales because that wasn't what the majority of Wii owners wanted. A massive install base doesn't mean anything if no one in that base is interested in your product. Even though I backed this game and would love to play it, I'm in the very small minority of ios users. The harsh fact is most people with ios devices don't want this.

What Wii games are you talking about? I think practically every game that was targeted for "the core" audience was mediocre at best and terrible on most days.

There are too many factors with what happened to the Wii to make a direct comparison to Kickstarter, iOS, and Republique.

 

[Meier]

Only gone up about $5k in the past week it seems like. I feel for the guy. Since it won't make it, can they repost the kickstarter with a smaller goal afterwards? Maybe people will be more inclined to pitch in with a more realistic goal..

 

[pje122]

I certainly agree with Ignis.
I want to play your stuff Ryan but don't want to play iOS time-wasters.

 

[Mario007]

Thank you, Ignis, for providing those links. This is awesome. Again, I'm sorry for not checking this page this week. (I haven't had time to check GAF since the weekend, which I think is a first for me!)



Your comments here, to me, are fascinating. I follow your logic and respect your opinion, even though I don't agree with everything. What might be really interesting is recording a one-off podcast discussion with you about this subject. I have a feeling some will tell me this is bad PR, but whatever, I think it would be really cool. Or, if you prefer, we can discuss this here.

I think the core of my disagreement is that I don't fear iOS or Apple, I don't think they will kill PC, and I think mobile touch devices can offer fresh gameplay experiences that currently don't exist. Hence, I don't think you should reject iOS as a viable gaming platform. I do, however, think you should demand better games than the garbage so many game companies are putting out on iOS and Android.

With Republique, this is how I have approached the design and story of the game. This is me opening up my mind and heart as to why I'm even in this industry:

-I believe 18-button game controllers significantly limit the appeal of the medium we love so much

-I lament that many of my favorite games of all-time (MGS3 / Bioshock) can't be played by my friends and family because: A) They refuse to buy a $300 console B) They are intimidated by the controller C) They suck at dual analog controls D) They don't want to game in front of a TV (plus loads of other reasons)

-There are roughly 400 million iOS devices out in the wild

-iOS devices allow for simple, almost-primal input methods (even babies can work an iPad)

-Hundreds of millions are people games on these devices, many of whom wouldn't consider buying a PS3 to play The Last Guardian

-Most of the games on iOS, in my opinion, have zero meaning and cultural relevance, and I don't see this changing any time soon. (Thankfully there are games like Sword & Sworcery out there classing up the joint, though!)

-I have and will continue to dedicate my life and career to this medium I love so much. My goal has been to create big, innovative, meaningful games for as many people on this planet as possible. I think games have the capacity to touch people on a deeper level than even the best films... I want to be part of this challenge.

-We decided to challenge ourselves to realize our vision for a game that doesn't currently exist on any platform: A game all about your connection with an AI on the other side of your phone... A game all about the big brother / 1984 craziness that's going on in the world right now... A game with deep and awesome gameplay that anybody can jump in and play...

This is how we landed on iOS and the vision for Republique. The onus is on us to prove to the world that this game is unlike anything you've played before, in large part because it's being carefully crafted for touch and mobile.

That's where my brain is right now.

Curious what everybody thinks!

Hey Ryan so I'm wondering, since you presented these points and you seem to stand by them, why only iOS? Why not have android in there too (I mean it has a larger userbase than iOS and the input method is equally the same)?
This might be stretching it a bit but also why not have it on Vita since the touch input seems to be somewhat of a core element in your vision (I understand that there are not so many Vita's around, but I'd say Sony would love to have a good game on their new device and would help and/or you could use the very cheap PS Suite).

This is not a troll post, I'm just genuinly interested why only iOS when other platforms have also the same pros that you have mentioned. Increasing the audience of the game could very well help with the kickstarter funding.

 

[Dog Problems]

What Wii games are you talking about? I think practically every game that was targeted for "the core" audience was mediocre at best and terrible on most days.

There are too many factors with what happened to the Wii to make a direct comparison to Kickstarter, iOS, and Republique.

MadWorld and Tatsunoko vs. Capcom are a couple of my favorite games this generation and I'd say they're far from mediocre. There's also Another Code: R which is an excellent adventure game.

 

[morningbus]

MadWorld and Tatsunoko vs. Capcom are a couple of my favorite games this generation and I'd say they're far from mediocre. There's also Another Code: R which is an excellent adventure game.

Madworld is definitely a pretty fair example I had forgotten about. Though it came out after "core" gamers had already been burned by countless test games. Tatsunoko vs. Capcom is kind of a niche game. I know it has appeal, and I know it is pretty damn good, but I'm not sure if it would have done the numbers it needed anywhere. Another Code didn't even come out in the U.S. (something I'm still mad about).

I don't know. I just don't think it is possible to compare the situations wholesale. Publishers kept testing Wii owners with garbage, then more garbage, then something not garbage. The climate and the rationale of the average buyer were just totally different at that time. There are no grand ovations from Rovio that, "hey, if you buy this crap, we'll try really hard to get you something AAA, promise," to compare to.

 

[DiscoJer]

Hey Ryan so I'm wondering, since you presented these points and you seem to stand by them, why only iOS? Why not have android in there too (I mean it has a larger userbase than iOS and the input method is equally the same)?
This might be stretching it a bit but also why not have it on Vita since the touch input seems to be somewhat of a core element in your vision (I understand that there are not so many Vita's around, but I'd say Sony would love to have a good game on their new device and would help and/or you could use the very cheap PS Suite).

This is not a troll post, I'm just genuinly interested why only iOS when other platforms have also the same pros that you have mentioned. Increasing the audience of the game could very well help with the kickstarter funding.

Isn't it obvious? I mean, Android might be a big market, but Android owners don't buy many games. iOS gamers might not pay much for their games, but they do buy them.

And very few developers are making games for the Vita, even Sony seems reluctant to. You expect a small developer like him to spend lots of money and going through Sony's hoops? When much bigger companies haven't bothered?

 

[Aaron]

What Wii games are you talking about? I think practically every game that was targeted for "the core" audience was mediocre at best and terrible on most days.

There are too many factors with what happened to the Wii to make a direct comparison to Kickstarter, iOS, and Republique.

We have no idea of the quality of Republique right now, and the success of Raccoon City shows that quality isn't essential for sales. I was actually thinking of that Treasure sequel but couldn't remember the name. Original game was a fan favorite, though only released in the US, sequel got terrible sales despite being a quality game.

 

[numble]

Hey Ryan so I'm wondering, since you presented these points and you seem to stand by them, why only iOS? Why not have android in there too (I mean it has a larger userbase than iOS and the input method is equally the same)?
This might be stretching it a bit but also why not have it on Vita since the touch input seems to be somewhat of a core element in your vision (I understand that there are not so many Vita's around, but I'd say Sony would love to have a good game on their new device and would help and/or you could use the very cheap PS Suite).

This is not a troll post, I'm just genuinly interested why only iOS when other platforms have also the same pros that you have mentioned. Increasing the audience of the game could very well help with the kickstarter funding.

Android users don't buy many games and you need to buy lots of hardware to test if the game runs well.

But it is built with Unity, so it should be easier to port, I think. They need to get their base funding done before they can overpromise on ports that are more expensive and may not make back a lot of money.

 

[Dog Problems]

Madworld is definitely a pretty fair example I had forgotten about. Though it came out after "core" gamers had already been burned by countless test games. Tatsunoko vs. Capcom is kind of a niche game. I know it has appeal, and I know it is pretty damn good, but I'm not sure if it would have done the numbers it needed anywhere. Another Code didn't even come out in the U.S. (something I'm still mad about).

I don't know. I just don't think it is possible to compare the situations wholesale. Publishers kept testing Wii owners with garbage, then more garbage, then something not garbage. The climate and the rationale of the average buyer were just totally different at that time. There are no grand ovations from Rovio that, "hey, if you buy this crap, we'll try really hard to get you something AAA, promise," to compare to.

Yeah, Another Code wasn't a good example. I misread your comment and the one you replied to. I think it was marketed as a casual game in Europe, anyway, as it has an emblem on the cover that says "Interactive Novel" or something along those lines.

We have no idea of the quality of Republique right now, and the success of Raccoon City shows that quality isn't essential for sales. I was actually thinking of that Treasure sequel but couldn't remember the name. Original game was a fan favorite, though only released in the US, sequel got terrible sales despite being a quality game.

Sin & Punishment 2? The original wasn't released in the US until the Virtual Console.

 

[Mrbob]

Ryan, glad to see you responding in the thread some more. Before I continue, let me add I recently purchased the new ipad. So I will definitely support Republique when it releases. I may be taking a hard stance but it is only because the game seems like a cool idea and I'd like to see it succeed. Onto the fun!

-I lament that many of my favorite games of all-time (MGS3 / Bioshock) can't be played by my friends and family because: A) They refuse to buy a $300 console B) They are intimidated by the controller C) They suck at dual analog controls D) They don't want to game in front of a TV (plus loads of other reasons)

I admire your passion to try to bring IOS gaming to another level, but I have a question for you. If your friends and family didn't know you, would they even give Republique a chance at all? My mother owns an ipod touch, but the games she plays are Bejeweled and Peggle. She'd never play anything like Republique.

-Hundreds of millions are people games on these devices, many of whom wouldn't consider buying a PS3 to play The Last Guardian

Hundreds of millions play games on the PC too.

-There are roughly 400 million iOS devices out in the wild

So what? There are way more PCs out there worldwide. More importantly, there are 40 million and growing active user base on Steam. That's 40 million core gamers who might be interested in this project. I think it's a more important metric than 400 million people who may not care at all.

-iOS devices allow for simple, almost-primal input methods (even babies can work an iPad)

Not really any more simple than using a mouse. Point and click, bam. I haven't heard anything about Republique which couldn't be replicated on PC. If there are any details why, you could always fill us in!

Shadownrun is going to be a dual PC/tablet release. I really think it's in your best kickstarting interest to have a PC version released alongside the ios version. At the very least, this gives you a much larger pool of people to draw interest from in your kickstarter. Whatever happens with this kickstarter, good luck to you and your team!

 

[Margalis]

What would you have done differently?

The words "strategic alliance" should never appear in a kickstarter pitch. To me the actual text of the kickstarter is a turnoff in the words used and what they imply.

Developed by industry veterans behind AAA games like Metal Gear Solid, Halo, F.E.A.R., Kinect, and cutting edge videos like the Skyrim television spot and the iconic iPod “silhouette” ads, République represents a strategic alliance between Camouflaj and Logan to make an epic action game designed specifically for touch-based devices.
...
Push cutting-edge graphics on mobile
...
Full voiceovers
Real-time cinematics
...
AAA IOS experience
...
Where are the AAA games designed specifically for touch-based devices?
...
Before we enter into any financial agreements, we want to prove through Kickstarter that there is a market for a serious AAA mobile game
...
The team is brimming with anticipation, as everyone is hopeful that there are thousands of others out there who want more AAA experiences on their iOS device.

To this pitch is 80% production value and AAA-ness and only 20% actually pitching the game itself.

Most of the text is about how iPhone games aren't sufficiently AAA and how you want to save IOS from shitty games by making an awesome AAA one - rather than about how this game is cool and interesting.

In terms of the game itself there is very little to get excited about and what the game is feels like an afterthought.

I think if you look at kickstarter games that do well they very clearly scratch an itch - an SRPG or space flight sim or old-school dungeon crawler. The actual content of the game is the exciting part. Whereas your pitch is all about the production quality and the quality of delivery.

 

[soultron]

I admire your passion to try to bring IOS gaming to another level, but I have a question for you. If your friends and family didn't know you, would they even give Republique a chance at all? My mother owns an ipod touch, but the games she plays are Bejeweled and Peggle. She'd never play anything like Republique.

There's nothing like Republique on the iOS platform, so how can you say she'd never play something like that? It also offers a strong female lead character, which might appeal to women.

So what? There are way more PCs out there worldwide. More importantly, there are 40 million and growing active user base on Steam. That's 40 million core gamers who might be interested in this project. I think it's a more important metric than 400 million people who may not care at all.

There is fragmentation among PCs because of the hardware contained within. There are billions of combinations of hardware components new and old. You don't know if every PC could run Republique, and if they could run it as the developers intended.

The iDevice family offer a more consistent hardware ecosystem, which in turns means development is easier and the end-user gets a more consistent experience no matter which iDevice they're on. With fewer models, Camoflaj can set exactly which older versions of iDevice aren't compatible -- most likely those that cannot run iOS5.

I don't think this game needs to happen on PC. There are plenty of great experiences on PC already. Let this game be a statement about what's possible in the iOS/mobile space. I personally don't want to enter the space until there are games (like Republique) for an enthusiast gamer like myself. I think developing for PC lessens the impact. This game is supposed to be disruptive with respect to so many precedents set in the iOS space -- price, quality, and narrative scope being the chief concerns.

The way I see it, a game like Republique succeeding is an invitation to more developers who want to try riskier AAA-calibre stuff on mobile devices. I'd rather have this "ushering in" sooner rather than later.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

My mother owns an ipod touch, but the games she plays are Bejeweled and Peggle. She'd never play anything like Republique.

Who gives a shit what your mother plays? Do you think she reflects all iOS device owners? What kind of sample size is this? I lol'd.

How about this: What portion of those 400 million iOS device owners do you think *are* core gamers as well? Give me a percentage. Then turn that percentage into millions of potential customers. That's the reality and the market looking to be tapped.

I fucking hate this half-assed logic that suggests because there are a lot of casual gamers on iOS devices, that must be all iOS gamers would be interested in accepting. It's repeated in this thread time and time again, and it makes me wonder about the intellectual horizon of the people posting such commentaries. It is AT BEST an intellectually dishonest and disingenuous vein of logic. At worst, it's just intentional trolling at this point.

The lack of an abundance of games hardcore gamers want is not an indication that there isn't a market for it, nor is it a confirmation that there is no future for more serious games on iOS (or Android/WP7/whatever). If only 3% of the existing iOS market was comprised of people who are also core gamers (and that's a ridiculously low estimate), that's 12 million undeserved gamers ripe for the pickin'.

 

[numble]

If only 3% of the existing iOS market was comprised of people who are also core gamers (and that's a ridiculously low estimate), that's 12 million undeserved gamers ripe for the pickin'.

Indeed, Gameloft had sales of $25.4 million last quarter just from smartphones and tablets, and that's based on them making copycats of Call of Duty, GTA, Halo, Red Dead Redemption, Diablo, Uncharted, etc. There are iOS gamers that want these types of games, and they are making at least one developer a lot of money.

 

[michaelius]

I think the core of my disagreement is that I don't fear iOS or Apple, I don't think they will kill PC, and I think mobile touch devices can offer fresh gameplay experiences that currently don't exist. Hence, I don't think you should reject iOS as a viable gaming platform. I do, however, think you should demand better games than the garbage so many game companies are putting out on iOS and Android.

I don't think people are afraid of pc/stationary consoles with iOS. What we are afraid is that they will kill dedicated gaming portables and a lot of us would rather play Persona 4 on the go instead of Infinity Blade or Angry Birds

-I believe 18-button game controllers significantly limit the appeal of the medium we love so much

And the cold hard facts are that many of genres had to be severally dumbed down to accomodate to that "intimidating" controller.

-I lament that many of my favorite games of all-time (MGS3 / Bioshock) can't be played by my friends and family because: A) They refuse to buy a $300 console B) They are intimidated by the controller C) They suck at dual analog controls D) They don't want to game in front of a TV (plus loads of other reasons)

Would they still be your favourite games if they were dumbed down to fit into non-intimidating controls scheme ?

-iOS devices allow for simple, almost-primal input methods (even babies can work an iPad)

That's cool and all but why exactly should people who spent years gaming on various pads/joysticks/keyboards/mouses care ?

-Hundreds of millions are people games on these devices, many of whom wouldn't consider buying a PS3 to play The Last Guardian

Thats fine but gaming kickstarters are driven by people who do...

-I have and will continue to dedicate my life and career to this medium I love so much. My goal has been to create big, innovative, meaningful games for as many people on this planet as possible. I think games have the capacity to touch people on a deeper level than even the best films... I want to be part of this challenge.

-We decided to challenge ourselves to realize our vision for a game that doesn't currently exist on any platform: A game all about your connection with an AI on the other side of your phone... A game all about the big brother / 1984 craziness that's going on in the world right now... A game with deep and awesome gameplay that anybody can jump in and play...

This is how we landed on iOS and the vision for Republique. The onus is on us to prove to the world that this game is unlike anything you've played before, in large part because it's being carefully crafted for touch and mobile.

That's where my brain is right now.

Curious what everybody thinks!

That's a nice vision.

 

[Aaron]

Indeed, Gameloft had sales of $25.4 million last quarter just from smartphones and tablets, and that's based on them making copycats of Call of Duty, GTA, Halo, Red Dead Redemption, Diablo, Uncharted, etc. There are iOS gamers that want these types of games, and they are making at least one developer a lot of money.

That's because they flood the market with titles, do constant sales, and now pack their games with IAP. Do you expect Republique to do any of those things? What is it a clone of that the consumer can easily identify, and thus feel confident of their purchase?

 

[numble]

That's because they flood the market with titles, do constant sales, and now pack their games with IAP. Do you expect Republique to do any of those things? What is it a clone of that the consumer can easily identify, and thus feel confident of their purchase?

I'm not talking about Republique. I'm talking about the notion being bandied about here that there is no desire for "core" games, or that there are no "core" gamers on iOS. If people were only interested in bite-sized Twitter games, these games wouldn't do well, since they are clones of "core" and "serious" console and PC games.

I'm addressing comments similar to this:

I think this is the same situation with the Wii. Developers saw how much the console sold and started actually making the serious games they thought the fans wanted, but those games got awful sales because that wasn't what the majority of Wii owners wanted. A massive install base doesn't mean anything if no one in that base is interested in your product. Even though I backed this game and would love to play it, I'm in the very small minority of ios users. The harsh fact is most people with ios devices don't want this.

On the contrary, I think Gameloft and its revenues ($25 million in 3 months!) demonstrate there is a huge desire for AAA games, and people flock to Gameloft because they offer fake AAA games that very few developers offer.