After reading all your posts on 480i issues, I'm a bit confused... Are your complaints about it mostly related to capturing issues, or actual low IQ that you experience while running PS2/GameCube/XBOX interlaced contents, through the OSSC or the Mini? If so, how do you deal with it, practically? Scanlines, to compensate the blurriness? Keep going the CRT way, if possible?
Retro AV Club Thread 2: Classic Gaming Done Right!
- Thread starter Mega
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Capturing issues for me, I need to use a deinterlacer/upscaler to even get good results and 60FPS for interlaced games.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Ideally you have a good de-interlacing algorithm applied. This is what the Framemeister and most HDTVs will do, which the OSSC can forward directly to use. The only wrinkle is that deinterlacing introduces lag, which is about 1 frame on the FM and TV dependent for HDTVs, but in practice generally pretty fast.
Honestly I think interlacing looks worse on a CRT than when it's been properly deinterlaced.
What sheepy said. I agree, and there's no reason to use scanlines on 480i native content. It would just block out real information. It'd be as bad as putting scanlines on 480p stuff.
As I said, my only complaint with 480i is that I can't get rid of moire in games. Other than that, it's terrific with a good deinterlacer. 480i is basically just more detail than 240p.
NormalFish
Banned
This isn't always true. You can alternate the scanlines in the place where data from the last frame was. This is essentially what you'll get from turning a 480i signal in to 240p, except the lines have an offset so it flickers. it totally eliminates combing, thugh.
You're talking about the doubling method, yeah? Otherwise in 2 field -> 1frame, you absolutely are blocking. In doubling, then yeah you can block half the picture and not miss any of the native information.
For Shadow of Destiny, I totally recommend a hacked Xbox + import a Euro copy of Shadow of Memories. The game is 480p native like that.
CT2, assuming the whole game runs in 480i, will look great on Framemeister no point in forcing 240p unless you can't stand flicker and you're using a CRT.
NormalFish
Banned
It's irrelevant. Every image consists of 50% of the new frame in 480i. Regardless of whether you double it, you can block out the old information with a scanline. It's exactly the same.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
No, for 60fps 480i every field is a frame. This is something motion&pixel adaptive de-interlacing takes into account.
Edit: maybe I'm reading this wrong? It sounds like you're saying each field is 50% of a frame, and each pair of fields constitutes 1 frame which isn't right.
It's not irrelevant. Doubling uses one field and full deinterlacing uses both fields. The full method has original information at every scanline which would be blocked with a scanline filter. The doubled method has repeated information wich adds no new information about the details of the original frame.
NormalFish
Banned
Red: New frame lines
Blue: Old frame lines
Purple: New frame lines from doubling
Black: Scanlines
You wouldn't lose any information. In a single still, you would lose as much information from linedoubling as from scanlines, but in motion you will still see every bit of information available for at least 1 frame, as opposed to the 2 of 480i.
I'm also right too.=p I have to set up extra equipment to capture a game instead of doing directly to the capture card like for nearly every console I own all because of that interlacing.
Please keep in mind I'm still a 100% caveman, when it comes to AV comprehension/terminology, so apologies if I may end up saying silly/stupid things, but... I own plenty of 2D games on the PS2 - not so many, or even none, on the GameCube and XBOX - which look pretty good with on my Trinitron TV, in spite of the fact they don't run in 240p. Wouldn't they still benefit from scanlines, even through a Mini or an OSSC?
NormalFish
Banned
it varies greatly. a LOT of 2D PS2 games don't use pixel art, which more or less makes scanlines useless. Those that do frequently have some filtering (the retro games collections such as the taito collections are infamous for this), so they also see basically no benefit from scanlines.
Moreover, most of the games that might benefit (Metal Slug Anthology, for example) are much better off being hex editted for true 240p anyway.
Despite the fact that I think 480i scanlines are definitely a legitimate feature, I don't disagree with televator saying they're pretty much never a good solution.
I've used them in some games with nasty aliasing or similar, though. The framemeister doesn't seem to handle it very well, unfortunately. Supposedly the OSSC should, but I'll wait and see for myself.
Red: New frame lines
Blue: Old frame lines
Purple: New frame lines from doubling
Black: Scanlines
You wouldn't lose any information. In a single still, you would lose as much information from linedoubling as from scanlines, but in motion you will still see every bit of information available for at least 1 frame, as opposed to the 2 of 480i.
I understand what you mean that you aren't blocking anything in this method. However, you said it was irrelevant whether it was doubled or 2 field. It's not. If you apply scanlines over a 2field deintelaced frame, you will block original info.
NormalFish
Banned
well yeah, but then you're not using scanlines on 480i lol
I think we were talking past eachother, though. You're right that you shouldn't use scanlines alongside deinterlacing like the frameister's. But it's not because it's 480i, it's because after deinterlacing it's 480p. Pedantry, perhaps, but better than being misleading I suppose.
Understood, thanks for clarifying!
I've never been the person who goes through hacking/modding, even if it means to do without a better IQ or general experience. I'm aware it can come up as a severe limitation, but I'm your typical 'original game with the original hardware' kinda guy.
In a way, I feel quite intimidated by this upcoming OSSC initiation, as even switching from the GameBoy Player Startup disc to the GBI (with the SD Media Launcher addition) felt to me like entering the Matrix.
Well, this shit can get pretty tangled and the technicalities are endless. For example: Technically speaking line doubled 480i is 480p. Difference is the doubled information, but the entire frame is a full 480 lines @ 31Khz. I mean if your HDTV didn't see it that way, then it wouldn't work the way it does. Anyway, yeah, we sorta went past eachother on terms.
To clarify while keeping Fish's respose in mind. When I say 480i native, I mean that the very source imagery and art was created to display correctly in 480i/p. Something like Metal Slug anthology does not have the assets to natively display past 240p. Even if the PS2 outputs the game @480i everything about the game was drawn @ 240p. Hence, in this case, adding scanlines to the 480i image can totally make sense.
Try it on the FM! It looks great! Silent Hill 2 almost looks like the Xbox version in clarity.
Oh sure, I guessed that's what you meant. I assume it will be a pretty easy/painless process to just add or remove scanlines on a game to game basis, at least on the PS2, whereas - with other systems - it sounds more like finding the right settings and then stick with them.
Speaking of which, any of you guys running a YouTube channel - and about to get the OSSC - plans to create videos about how to set up different consoles on different video modes? If that's even possible, of course... Maybe there are too many variables to consider - all the different TV/monitors, for instance - that would prevent from coming down to one single, universal setup.
NormalFish
Banned
Might also be worth mentioning that most of the games that use this sort of "240p -> 480i" conversion that televator's referring to (and that I said can be reversed for better image quality) are old game collections and arcade ports. I'm actually struggling to think of many pixel art games on the PS2 that aren't an older game. Is heavenly guardian pixel art? it looks pretty modern idfk.
I have a youtube channel but don't have the OSSC, and I wonder if I'll ever get one.
Shin Johnpv
Member
I did my grad school program during the switch from SD to HD. I had far too many classes that dealt with dealing with interlaced video, 3-2 pulldowns, and other shit of that nature. Shit has driven me crazy for some time.
Will this work on most Xbox-games? Having a hacked Xbox being able to force 480p on european games?
I haven't run into a game that I couldn't get to run in 480p. So I'm inclined to say that it does work for most games. Granted, I'm using an NTSC box and I've only tried one PAL game so far.
It depends on the PAL game. Some will have 480p, others won't. It's never written on the cover though, you'll have to do your own research. And just because the NTSC version has 480p doesn't meant the PAL has it too, that would be too easy. Higher resolutions like 720p and 1080i are almost always stripped from the PAL release, even if it kept 480p.
I try to buy the PAL version whenever I can because money and access, but researching if I'm not getting an inferior version is a real pain.
I know you guys are mainly referring to deinterlacers, but on the CRT side the TM-A13SU makes 480i look like a progressive signal. It does a great job where my other monitors have that less flattering flickery look.
Shin Johnpv
Member
Welcome back Mega!
Bakkus
Member
Yeah, that might be the best idea, I tried the same with an N64, but it had the wrong serial numbers for it to be possible, so I ended up just buying an already modded one. But I guess every top loader can be RGB modded, right?
I forgot that you caught a temp ban. Shin's avatar never fails to throw me off. lol
Welcome to post God King Emperor Trump election GAF.
Using the Toro Box to get Scart to RGB? I'm using a VGA Box to an old 4:3 flat screen computer monitor.. which I suppose I could breakout to BNC RGB, but I'm interested in the Toro, even though some say it's a bit overkill.
Would love to get my Dreamcast going on my PVM.
Note: I also picked up some of those factory sealed (blue swirl versions) that popped up seems like in the last year
Thanks everyone, feels like I've come back to a pretty different forum lol
I was on the OSSC list and preordered. Thanks to this thread for the reminder a few days ago. I may have missed my spot because I wasn't checking my email and didn't think they'd get to the 1000s so quickly.
I have been on a Metroid binge during my timeout! I got through Zero Mission and AM2R. I'm playing Fusion on the go and I'm pretty deep into Hyper Metroid. Btw, everyone should play Hyper Metroid. I'm going to bombard the 240p screenshot thread this week.
Speaking of things to try out, SNES games with CD quality audio are amazing. I know Super Metroid is off (music not cuing up with the action) but ALttP is good stuff. Anyone with a SD2SNES should give it a try.
I also 120 star'd Mario 64 for the first time since I was a kid. I was switching my game back and forth between N64RGB CRT and UltraHDMI plasma at my leisure. It felt equally natural and fun on either setup.
I took a bit of interest in playing DOS games (maybe after I finish my Metroid binge). This was after seeing some posted DOS screenshots around these parts. Initially I thought of building an old PC but I literally have no room for it and don't know what's best parts-wise or what compatibility problems I would face... and I have a perfectly good PC that can generate a 200p/400p signal and a monitor that can display it. I'm using a front-end GUI for simplicity and had fun setting up Roland MT-32 and SC-55 soundfonts. Doom with SC-55 sounds fantastic and the MT-32 emulation sounds, to my ears, just like the real thing (second half of the video):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bZXVqrSo7AA
I was on the OSSC list and preordered. Thanks to this thread for the reminder a few days ago. I may have missed my spot because I wasn't checking my email and didn't think they'd get to the 1000s so quickly.
I have been on a Metroid binge during my timeout! I got through Zero Mission and AM2R. I'm playing Fusion on the go and I'm pretty deep into Hyper Metroid. Btw, everyone should play Hyper Metroid. I'm going to bombard the 240p screenshot thread this week.
Speaking of things to try out, SNES games with CD quality audio are amazing. I know Super Metroid is off (music not cuing up with the action) but ALttP is good stuff. Anyone with a SD2SNES should give it a try.
I also 120 star'd Mario 64 for the first time since I was a kid. I was switching my game back and forth between N64RGB CRT and UltraHDMI plasma at my leisure. It felt equally natural and fun on either setup.
I took a bit of interest in playing DOS games (maybe after I finish my Metroid binge). This was after seeing some posted DOS screenshots around these parts. Initially I thought of building an old PC but I literally have no room for it and don't know what's best parts-wise or what compatibility problems I would face... and I have a perfectly good PC that can generate a 200p/400p signal and a monitor that can display it. I'm using a front-end GUI for simplicity and had fun setting up Roland MT-32 and SC-55 soundfonts. Doom with SC-55 sounds fantastic and the MT-32 emulation sounds, to my ears, just like the real thing (second half of the video):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bZXVqrSo7AA
a TV in my house broke and looks like i'll get a 4K TV for me and put my current TV where the broken one was.
the TV i plan to get is a Samsung KU6000. it seems like it has lower input lag than my current one and is decent at most other things. i really want to see how it handles scaling.
i have an OSSC on the way. i could try my hand with a few of my consoles, though i can only use SNES, N64 and Wii with it since i sold my GC component cable and the alternatives (GCVideo) aren't out yet)
it would at least make for a fun RGB N64 + OSSC Vs Ultra HDMI N64 match.
the TV i plan to get is a Samsung KU6000. it seems like it has lower input lag than my current one and is decent at most other things. i really want to see how it handles scaling.
i have an OSSC on the way. i could try my hand with a few of my consoles, though i can only use SNES, N64 and Wii with it since i sold my GC component cable and the alternatives (GCVideo) aren't out yet)
it would at least make for a fun RGB N64 + OSSC Vs Ultra HDMI N64 match.
That will be interesting!
If my actual monitor will turn out to be a solid ground for testing (still not sure whether or not it will be Line3x compatible, or how well it accepts 240p signals), I'll fiddle around with an NTSC-J Saturn, NTSC-J Mega Drive 2 + Mega-CD 2, PAL XBOX, PAL GameCube, NTSC-J PS2 and PAL modded PS2.
As for now, though, Amazon is being really weird in processing my order (I bough a DVI-to-HDMI cable), so I'll probably end up getting the OSSC before that. Beautiful.
Oh, and welcome back Mega!
I know it isn't really for us, but I just tried out the Famicom Mini on my PC monitor and it actually looks pretty damn good. Much better than I expected anyway. I would actually play this thing on the regular even though I have an NES with RGB.
I think one of my friends has one. He's had good things to say about it. I think he has played imports so it should have a 60hz support too, but check that out.
gingerbeardman
Member
Alright, thanks for this. I have a pretty big Pal-collection, and a pal box that Im soon going to softmod into ntsc, so guess I have a nice research project going forward.
Welcome back!
If I remember correctly, there was a Gaffer on the scanlines thread who posted loads of pictures of retro goodness displayed on the same TV, and yeah, that stuff looked amazing.
I guess it all depends on how relatively new/not abused those Trinitrons can come nowadays. If you're lucky enough to get one from someone who took good care of it, chances are that you're in for a treat. That particular model looks also pretty nice, in my opinion.
From my personal experience, though, every Trinitron flatscreen I tried during the past couple of years, showed some slight geometry/convergence issue I simply could not fix through the TV's service menu. This may be absolutely tolerable for some, not so much for others.
Thanks, I think I will pick it up, I asked for some pics to the seller and looks good, he also said that he used it to play retro consoles on it, so I expect it to be in good condition.
I'll post pics !
Shin Johnpv
Member
Ohhh shit my HiDefNES Kit shipped today! So damn excited for it!
I actually think 480i looks good on my PVM. I'd go so far as to say it looks fantastic. But you can't be too close to the screen or else you'll notice all that temporal noise. Interlaced material on a CRT was never meant to be viewed in the same way we'd view content on a progressive capable computer monitor: up close only a foot or two away.
Interlaced material on a CRT was meant to be viewed at least a few feet away. If you get at least 4 feet away from a 480i game on a 20" PVM, it starts to look amazing and nearly as good as 480p (but text will still look noisy).
I think some of the games at that resolution on a well calibrated display can rival, and even beat out the graphics of HD games on LCD screens. (Yep I went there). Just look at games like Ninja Gaiden, Panzer Dragoon Orta, or Super Mario Galaxy for reference.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
I'm more bothered by the flicker or the feathering in fast motion (like... in games).
Yup
I wish I could agree. I can't unsee the flicker from interlaced sources. It makes me slightly dizzy now. Maybe I'm too close, but I just have a 14" PVM and even sitting 3-4' feet away is a stretch. My eyes, they have been spoiled from recent years of progressive content and displays.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Building an old PC is really a lot of fun. I swear I've had more fun parting things out and getting things together than playing games on it so far.
I have mine set up so that I share a monitor, keyboard, and mouse between old & new PC so that it doesn't take up so much space. Thankfully my main LCD monitor does just fine with those resolutions.
Honestly we're starting to hit the point where good 90s parts are on their way to being really expensive. Most of that stuff got destroyed as "ewaste" and what's left is getting harder to find.
You can't beat playing on the real thing though. I've been using Dosbox for years but the emulation isn't perfect and you need a beefy system for the later games. Plus everything win9x that just can't play on modern systems and also can't be emulated yet. GOG helps a lot with those but there will always be some stuff you need an authentic machine for it. The PC OT is super cool but not many people are in it yet :/ Everyone is all about old consoles but no one cares about old PCs.
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