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[Timu]

I know you guys are mainly referring to deinterlacers, but on the CRT side the TM-A13SU makes 480i look like a progressive signal. It does a great job where my other monitors have that less flattering flickery look.

It can come close but it'll never be perfect as 480p, and welcome back.

I actually think 480i looks good on my PVM. I'd go so far as to say it looks fantastic. But you can't be too close to the screen or else you'll notice all that temporal noise. Interlaced material on a CRT was never meant to be viewed in the same way we'd view content on a progressive capable computer monitor: up close only a foot or two away.

Interlaced material on a CRT was meant to be viewed at least a few feet away. If you get at least 4 feet away from a 480i game on a 20" PVM, it starts to look amazing and nearly as good as 480p (but text will still look noisy).

I think some of the games at that resolution on a well calibrated display can rival, and even beat out the graphics of HD games on LCD screens. (Yep I went there). Just look at games like Ninja Gaiden, Panzer Dragoon Orta, or Super Mario Galaxy for reference.

That's the issue: You shouldn't be that far away from the screen. I don't like to be far away at all(heck I play all of my consoles on one screen), and the flaws of interlacing will always be there no matter what viewing distance you're at. Also interlacing will never be as perfect as progressive, not with it's flickering that will always happen no matter how good the CRT/PVM is, though it can still look good on them of course so it won't be too much of a problem, but not the best for image quality and that's why we don't have interlaced resolutions anymore thankfully.

Also I played those games you listed in 480i and 480p and the 480p is still better overall. 480i didn't look bad, just not as good.

 

[Khaz]

Also I played those games you listed in 480i and 480p and the 480p is still better overall. 480i didn't look bad, just not as good.

I think that's key. 480i gets a bad rap on modern screens because it's difficult to display, and non-processed comb-like frame addition looks terrible at the slightest motion. But on a CRT it's barely noticeable. It's obvious on still images with low colour depth, 16bit console stuff, but it was used on the PS2 and later systems which had very complex and colourful graphics which mitigates a lot of the flickering. Let's not forget also that everything outside of old videogame consoles was displayed at 480i: broadcast TV, VCR and DVD all produced an interlaced signal, and everybody was fine with it. 480p is better, obviously, but 480i is not that bad.

 

[Timu]

I think that's key. 480i gets a bad rap on modern screens because it's difficult to display, and non-processed comb-like frame addition looks terrible at the slightest motion. But on a CRT it's barely noticeable. It's obvious on still images with low colour depth, 16bit console stuff, but it was used on the PS2 and later systems which had very complex and colourful graphics which mitigates a lot of the flickering. Let's not forget also that everything outside of old videogame consoles was displayed at 480i: broadcast TV, VCR and DVD all produced an interlaced signal, and everybody was fine with it. 480p is better, obviously, but 480i is not that bad.

Yes, this is all true. Back then I settled with 480i for my gaming on Dreamcast, PS2, Gamecube and Xbox. I accepted it as well since it was the standard. But then I got component cables(and later VGA for Dreamcast) and then realized how much of an improvement 480p was, like no flickering!!!=O

 

[PumpkinSpice]

snip

 

[Peltz]

Just realized Mega is back from banned-land. Welcome.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

Who the fuck is Mega?

Wait, who the fuck are any of you?

 

[Fallen92]

Who the fuck is Mega?

Wait, who the fuck are any of you?

We're all your alt accounts.

Spoiler

I'm new

 

[Mega]

Thanks again, all.

You can't beat playing on the real thing though. I've been using Dosbox for years but the emulation isn't perfect and you need a beefy system for the later games. Plus everything win9x that just can't play on modern systems and also can't be emulated yet. GOG helps a lot with those but there will always be some stuff you need an authentic machine for it. The PC OT is super cool but not many people are in it yet :/ Everyone is all about old consoles but no one cares about old PCs.

Can't really blame them if they didn't grow up playing them. There are far more of us who had sub $200 consoles than beefy $1000+ Win 95-98 machines. I was incredibly greatful our family got a modest Compaq that could run StarCraft and Age of Empires. I didn't really grow up with DOS outside the edutainment stuff from school (Math Blaster, Carmen Sandiego, Oregon Trail, Broderbund stuff)... so this is a "good enough for now" curiosity. Besides truly not having the space I don't want to invest in something I may end up not liking!

Building an old PC is really a lot of fun. I swear I've had more fun parting things out and getting things together than playing games on it so far.

I have mine set up so that I share a monitor, keyboard, and mouse between old & new PC so that it doesn't take up so much space. Thankfully my main LCD monitor does just fine with those resolutions.

Honestly we're starting to hit the point where good 90s parts are on their way to being really expensive. Most of that stuff got destroyed as "ewaste" and what's left is getting harder to find.

I wish I had a bigger place so I could dabble in building and setting one up. I think what dissuaded me most is that you need to build a PC that plays games of a certain "era" and sort of forget about good compatibility with the games that came out in the years before or after(?) your target machine. Maybe I'll reconsider one day and hope the parts haven't become outrageously priced. I still kind of want to pick up the real synthesizer modules and hook them up to Dosbox...

Who the fuck is Mega?

Wait, who the fuck are any of you?

I'm no one... no wait, that's old. I'm Negan.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

I think what dissuaded me most is that you need to build a PC that plays games of a certain "era" and sort of forget about good compatibility with the games that came out in the years before or after(?) your target machine.

Build this. That's what I did. I have all the components Phil used here except an SD card -> IDE adapter for a hard drive and a different brand motherboard. Covers 386-era to Windows 98.

 

[Laevateinn]

I've gotten pretty heavily into Japanese computers lately. My god is it a pain in the ass. Not a lot of components that are easily available here are compatible.

The PC-98 uses C-Bus instead of ISA for example. They tend to be pretty nice to work inside surprisingly unlike the X68000 (holy shit is that a pain). But it's really cool and rewarding to get working. It's also fun figuring out what works, what doesn't, and how to get around the incompatibilities.

 

[NormalFish]

Who the fuck is Mega?

Wait, who the fuck are any of you?

Hello, this is your inner impulse buyer speaking

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

Hello, this is your inner impulse buyer speaking

Puhlease. I have my inner impulse buyer in check. There's not really any retro gaming accessories I need at the moment, save for that Mak Strike Deluxe that Ima probably ask for for Christmas. For the time being, I'm focused on pimping my PC out. I swear, I'll take pics of one of my gaming setups once I actually finish one of them.

 

[NormalFish]

Puhlease. I have my inner impulse buyer in check. There's not really any retro gaming accessories I need at the moment, save for that Mak Strike Deluxe that Ima probably ask for for Christmas. For the time being, I'm focused on pimping my PC out. I swear, I'll take pics of one of my gaming setups once I actually finish one of them.

You think that now, but just wait until next month when you buy 40 ft worth of cables with video game sprites patterned all over them.

 

[Laevateinn]

Puhlease. I have my inner impulse buyer in check. There's not really any retro gaming accessories I need at the moment, save for that Mak Strike Deluxe that Ima probably ask for for Christmas. For the time being, I'm focused on pimping my PC out. I swear, I'll take pics of one of my gaming setups once I actually finish one of them.

I said the same thing and now I have 4 PC98s.

 

[Mega]

Build this. That's what I did. I have all the components Phil used here except an SD card -> IDE adapter for a hard drive and a different brand motherboard. Covers 386-era to Windows 98.

I'm bookmarking that, thanks. And that guy's channel is awesome. He was the only one that had in-depth reviews of the Mist FPGA console, another cool little device I've had my eye on for ages now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j5NgsOtkAM

 

[Crynox]

Anyone has any experience with a Sony Trinitron KV-21LS30E ? I can get one for 20€, looks interesting, it's one of those flat screen CRT with front speakers with RGB input.

I have one of these. It's really good for RGB Scart. The picture is the best I've ever seen for a consumer grade CRT. It's almost as sharp as my PVM. Colours are really vibrant, better then my PVM. I used to play my Wii on it and was really blown away.

Mine has only 4k hours on it. Best of all, cost me £1.13 !!

Snap it up.

 

[Laevateinn]

How do you guys know how many hours your monitor has?

 

[Crynox]

How do you guys know how many hours your monitor has?

You can find it on the service menu. Although not on PVMs sadly, the function isn't available.

 

[Leonsito]

I have one of these. It's really good for RGB Scart. The picture is the best I've ever seen for a consumer grade CRT. It's almost as sharp as my PVM. Colours are really vibrant, better then my PVM. I used to play my Wii on it and was really blown away.

Mine has only 4k hours on it. Best of all, cost me £1.13 !!

Snap it up.

Nice, I'll pick mine tomorrow, I have a 29" Trinitron already (KV-X2903E), but the geometry is a bit fucked, a real shame, because the IQ is incredible.

 

[bodine1231]

Finally decided to bust out my PVM 20m4u thats been sitting in the garage for years. Man,even though emulation with scanline filters is great, there is still nothing like the smoothness and lag free controls on a CRT. I picked this up for $50 3 or 4 years ago from a movie studio that was upgrading all their equipment. It's crazy to see what these are going for now!

Also,why does it give me those black bars when I try to take a picture? I don't remember it doing that before.

 

[davidwhangchoi]

ah yeah, some CRT pictures. it's so pure....

 

[missile]

^^ nice pix


Praise the AV-Lord! wb

 

[sugarless]

So I picked up a Japanese N64 and a couple of games in Super Potato and now realise I would need to get an RGB mod to get the best out of it. Does anyone know of any London-based service for doing this with a console supplied by the customer? Or am I best to just buy a pre-modded one?

 

[Khaz]

I think what dissuaded me most is that you need to build a PC that plays games of a certain "era" and sort of forget about good compatibility with the games that came out in the years before or after(?) your target machine.

It's no different than consoles, when you think about it. You can't play a 1986 Nintendo game on their brand new 1990 console. The lines are more blurred on PC as there is always some backwards compatibility with what came just before and the evolution is constant, so it's up to you where to draw the lines.

The space argument is an important one, PCs are massive. The big towers take a stupid amount of space (while being mostly empty). There are cases that visually takes less space, like horizontal desktop cases sitting under your display, or custom solutions, but then the price goes up very quickly. It's just another rabbit hole.

 

[Yes Boss!]

Moving back to the states early next year after a couple busy years in korea. Pretty excited to get back to re-making my game room. I use a lot of very cool consumer CRTs here which I've really began to enjoy even better than all the PVMs. In any case, looks like a lot of things have happened in the last couple years retro-wise. I'm still very much into my Wii and VC at 240p which seems as the best thing going. Glad to see folks are leaning away from the heavy laggy PC emulation scene. Kinda crappy things are getting so expensive.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Also,why does it give me those black bars when I try to take a picture? I don't remember it doing that before.

It has to do with the refresh rate I believe. Look up tutorials on how to photograph CRTs.

Cool pics, btw!

 

[Galdelico]

I was reading back some of your replies to my questions, and this bit:

(...) and you wanna use the SCART on PS2 since it not only gives you a better picture but the OSSC supports RGsB so you can play PS2 games in 480p over SCART if they have a 480p mode.

made me wonder whether or not you have to stay in RGB Video Out mode, with the PS2 (the same that's selected now, that I have the system hooked up to my CRT TV), and just select progressive scan in the few titles that allow it, like Tekken 5. Or do you still have to switch to Component Video Out, before connecting the system to the OSSC?

I'm trying to figure out the most before I get it, so I can start it up with all the basic stuff pretty much clear in my mind.

 

[NormalFish]

Should be just the normal RGB setting. You might see a longer flicker as it resyncs since it'll swap from RGBs to RGsB as soon as you turn to 480p but as I've never had a box that takes it I'm not sure of that.

 

[Galdelico]

Thanks!
And, I don't really know how useful it can be, due to shaky-cam going off screen, plus the dude using a CRT monitor, instead of a modern TV, but it seems like there's a bit of re-sync, as you said... https://youtu.be/8oECIycWCuQ?t=8m25s

 

[Mega]

It's no different than consoles, when you think about it. You can't play a 1986 Nintendo game on their brand new 1990 console. The lines are more blurred on PC as there is always some backwards compatibility with what came just before and the evolution is constant, so it's up to you where to draw the lines.

The space argument is an important one, PCs are massive. The big towers take a stupid amount of space (while being mostly empty). There are cases that visually takes less space, like horizontal desktop cases sitting under your display, or custom solutions, but then the price goes up very quickly. It's just another rabbit hole.

That's the problem. I have a mid-size tower for my main PC and it's nicely slotted into a section of my living room media center. There's a very compact, slim profile micro ATX PC is in the bedroom that I use for GroovyMAME and recently DOSBox and AM2R. I have it flush against my shelving unit taking up minimal space and being as unassuming as possible. The giant 90s tower isn't doable right now! Oh, if only I had a dedicated room for movies and games...

Moving back to the states early next year after a couple busy years in korea. Pretty excited to get back to re-making my game room. I use a lot of very cool consumer CRTs here which I've really began to enjoy even better than all the PVMs. In any case, looks like a lot of things have happened in the last couple years retro-wise. I'm still very much into my Wii and VC at 240p which seems as the best thing going. Glad to see folks are leaning away from the heavy laggy PC emulation scene. Kinda crappy things are getting so expensive.

While you gain in crispness, perfect geometry and manual controls with the PVMs/BVMs, you lose in phosphor bloom, greater brightness and saturation and more organic-looking backgrounds/sprites. You have to really crank up the settings on a pro CRT to match a consumer set's picture vibrancy, which ends up shortening its lifespan. My BVM is the dullest-looking of all my CRTs, although it's only really obvious in A/B comparisons and the occasional exception where I think some games running on it don't look so hot.

I was watching a Pat CUPodcast video about how retro game prices have plateaued, citing a glut of $200 Earthbounds at conventions and other overpriced online listings with hardly anyone biting... which may trigger an end to the bubble and prices starting to decrease. I figured it would happen eventually although I didn't think it would start so soon. Fairly recent and popular developments like the Everdrives, FPGA and emulator clone consoles, NES Classic, etc., may also be a contributing factor.

 

[Fallen92]

Thanks!
And, I don't really know how useful it can be, due to shaky-cam going off screen, plus the dude using a CRT monitor, instead of a modern TV, but it seems like there's a bit of re-sync, as you said... https://youtu.be/8oECIycWCuQ?t=8m25s

Yeah like normalfish said it does have to resync when it switches to rgsb but after that there shouldn't be any more sync problems. Here's another video showing how rgsb works
https://youtu.be/6pzTfdUcAfg

 

[Kawika]

I have been thinking about getting a top loader for a while now. I am kind of split between an AV Famicom and a Top Loader NES.

I have questions... (not about RGB).

If I go the AV Famicom Route is there a power supply I can buy that works with American power grid or do I need some special voltage converter?

If I go the top loader NES route (this applies to the original nes too) can you restore the audio channels from the famicom via a mod?

 

[NormalFish]

OSSC tracking has been sitting on "In Transit to Destination" for a couple days now and I'm antsy as all hell. For whatever reason, whenever I order something that goes through customs on the west coast (from japan/china/SEA/etc.) it comes way faster than expected, and when it goes through NYC on the east coast it takes way longer. Drives me nutty.

 

[Fallen92]

OSSC tracking has been sitting on "In Transit to Destination" for a couple days now and I'm antsy as all hell. For whatever reason, whenever I order something that goes through customs on the west coast (from japan/china/SEA/etc.) it comes way faster than expected, and when it goes through NYC on the east coast it takes way longer. Drives me nutty.

Same here. It said it arrived in Los Angeles on Sunday but it didn't update till today to say it departed the facility and is in transit to my local post office. If only the tracker was updated more often instead of leaving me in the dark for like 3 days, damn USPS.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

Mail volume is pretty high this time of year.

Don't worry.

 

[NormalFish]

Mail volume is pretty high this time of year.

Don't worry.

I'm not so much worried as anxious to get my hands on it.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

If I go the AV Famicom Route is there a power supply I can buy that works with American power grid or do I need some special voltage converter?

A Genesis model 1 power supply works perfectly with it.

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

Got my OSSC in today. Overall, I'm pretty impressed, but my PVMs still look the best in my opinion. The line tripling looks crazy good though and justifies the purchase itself.

Plus, doing stuff like this is always fun:

 

[Galdelico]

Wow, that looks really good.
Is it Line 3x? I ask because the aspect ratio seems a tiny bit too wide, but I read that you can actually adjust it to true 4:3 via the OSSC, in line triple mode (not in line double, which relies on your TV options to get the frame back to proper 4:3). Did you have the chance to test it out yet?

 

[sixteen-bit]

Great pic!

 

[Morfeo]

Got my OSSC in today. Overall, I'm pretty impressed, but my PVMs still look the best in my opinion. The line tripling looks crazy good though and justifies the purchase itself.

Plus, doing stuff like this is always fun:

What game is it?

 

[Galdelico]

Cyberbots - Fullmetal Madness.

 

[Morfeo]

Cyberbots - Fullmetal Madness.

Thanks! Looked cool, or maybe it was just the glorious shot that got me

 

[NormalFish]

complaining worked. good chance I get my OSSC tomorrow.

 

[Mega]

OSSC tracking has been sitting on "In Transit to Destination" for a couple days now and I'm antsy as all hell. For whatever reason, whenever I order something that goes through customs on the west coast (from japan/china/SEA/etc.) it comes way faster than expected, and when it goes through NYC on the east coast it takes way longer. Drives me nutty.

That's the awful sorting center. I have had stuff held up there for a week despite living near enough it could be delivered to me within a couple of hours.

My own tracking number doesn't even work. I should contact Bucko in case something went wrong.

Got my OSSC in today. Overall, I'm pretty impressed, but my PVMs still look the best in my opinion. The line tripling looks crazy good though and justifies the purchase itself.

Plus, doing stuff like this is always fun:

Hot pic.

 

[davidwhangchoi]

Got my OSSC in today. Overall, I'm pretty impressed, but my PVMs still look the best in my opinion. The line tripling looks crazy good though and justifies the purchase itself.

Plus, doing stuff like this is always fun:

thanks for the pic, i was reall curious about OSSC but if PVM looks better i'm sticking to my BVM as well (for now... until i get more monies) =)

 

[NormalFish]

I think most folks would agree, if you've got a CRT you're happy with, then stick to that over the OSSC. There aren't many features that the OSSC offers that outclass a high quality CRT, honestly.

Those of us that want to use a flat screen, though, are jumping at the chance of lag free gaming with lovely pixels.

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

Wow, that looks really good.
Is it Line 3x? I ask because the aspect ratio seems a tiny bit too wide, but I read that you can actually adjust it to true 4:3 via the OSSC, in line triple mode (not in line double, which relies on your TV options to get the frame back to proper 4:3). Did you have the chance to test it out yet?

Yeah, I'm running the "Generic 4:3" setting with the line tripling in that pic. That seems to give the best picture quality, as far as I can tell. My monitor is about 3-4 years old, and I'm using the default "Scenery" setting, with some adjusted brightness and contrast, cause those scanlines darken the picture crazy. I have scanlines at 87% intensity.

Thanks! Looked cool, or maybe it was just the glorious shot that got me

Cyberbots is probably the best "intro to fighting games" fighting game ever. It's fun as hell to play, the bots are super easy to control, and it's gorgeous! I have it on Sega Saturn, but I'm pretty sure it's on PSN, so check it out.

Some more pics:

These next few are all off my ASUS monitor via the OSSC:

These are off my 14" PVM:

Finally, these are off my 20" PVM:

!!BONUS RAGE OF THE DRAGONS OSSC MONITOR PIC!!:

 

[Galdelico]

Man, it really looks fantastic... Are you using the same settings in all your OSSC pics, so far? Scanlines look darker (the way I personally prefer them to be rendered) in some of them. It's hard to expect my current Asus monitor - a bit older than yours probably - to give me similar results... Colors look so damn gorgeous. I genuinely believe the overall IQ competes with your PVMs'.

Oh, and thanks for all the picture goodness.

Edit - Out of curiosity, what's the model of your monitor?

 

[Vespa]

What's the name of that delicious looking side scrolling beat 'em up, cyborgnumberblue?