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Retro AV Club Thread 2: Classic Gaming Done Right!
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Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Awww yeah, better open that in an incognito window.
That's way too many CRTs!!!
theSlacker
Member
Called the cops. This is a worksafe board you sick fuck.
Fun fact, I still have a decent collection of American games for the XBOX, as I used to own an NTSC-U console, ages ago. Unfortunately, in spite of the fact I bought it brand new, that XBOX clearly suffered from the long trip, because it had issues right off the box. Random resets plus DVD ejects, until it eventually stopped working.
I've never actually considered to mod my PAL console, but I've never heard of softmods either. Is there any walkthrough/website I can look at, in order to see how it's done and what kind of befenits it brings up, in terms of resolution and IQ?
Awesome.
Also, I'm not sure whethere or not Fallen92 wanted to start a new thread - to put all the OSSC informations/impressions/whatever into, without cluttering this Retro AV discussion - but I sincerely encourage all the new owners to share their settings, pics and all kinds of useful informations, until we decide what to do.
Damn, CRTcade is insane. I'm sure he will mutate into some sort of Max Headroom being, at some point.
Thanks everyone.
Oh sure, I'm aware that the OSSC doesn't support S-Video. I mentioned it only because it's what I'm using at the moment to connect the XBOX to my CRT TV.
Just out of curiosity, is component still preferable over RGB scart, on a PAL XBOX (not sure how many 480p games we got, here in Europe)
I've just hooked my OSSC to a PC CRT to play my Pal Xbox at 480/720P. I had to region change it to NTSC first to be able to do this.
Before the OSSC I was playing on a PVM via RGB Scart. I can tell you that it is better. I'm playing Splinter Cell and it is sharper and more colourful. On the training level I picked out footprints, and I can see Sam is wearing combat trousers with a pattern. I couldn't see that before.
So component with the OSSC is preferable, at least with a PC CRT, (yet to try it with an LCD).
Here's the tutorial I used:
https://gbatemp.net/threads/how-to-softmod-the-original-xbox.385064/
It's pretty simple to do, the only thing you really need is a USB to Xbox adapter like this one:
http://m.ebay.com/itm/Computer-PC-USB-to-XBOX-Adapter-Controller-Cable-Female-/280575482669
And one of the games listed in the tutorial to run the exploit.
Yeah still not sure what I'm gonna do with that but for now I'll probably just make a long post and then I'll see if we need to make a new thread or just add my post to the OP either via quote or through linking my post.Awesome.
Also, I'm not sure whethere or not Fallen92 wanted to start a new thread - to put all the OSSC informations/impressions/whatever into, without cluttering this Retro AV discussion - but I sincerely encourage all the new owners to share their settings, pics and all kinds of useful informations, until we decide what to do.
I need answers to a couple of questions:
1- Does the Wii U upscales a 720p iamge to 1080p and feeds it to the TV or does it just sends the 720p image without upscaling even on 1080p mode?
2- What benefits does the OSSC have over the Framemeister? From what I have seen, the Framemeister produces a sharper picture, the only diffrence is no lag and noise, are there other things I should consider before making a purchase?
1- Does the Wii U upscales a 720p iamge to 1080p and feeds it to the TV or does it just sends the 720p image without upscaling even on 1080p mode?
2- What benefits does the OSSC have over the Framemeister? From what I have seen, the Framemeister produces a sharper picture, the only diffrence is no lag and noise, are there other things I should consider before making a purchase?
Decided to check the tracking on mine because of you and it should arrive tomorrow too
PumpkinSpice
Banned
No, but I've has issues using more than one extension. Signal can drop out; I think the wire acts like a large resistor.
Ahh the elusive 15Khz freqeuncy. Alive and well!
It does upscale to 1080p if it's the selected output. You'd have to select 720p in the video settings if you want to output 720p
One thing is that the frameister and the OSSC are completely different devices which both aim to improve visuals in different ways. The frameister is a scaler so it has multiple output resolutions all the way up to 1080p but the scaling method produces lag, although the frameister produces only a small amount, whereas the OSSC is a line doubler so it has a set output, which is 480p but it also has a line triple mode which gives a 720p signal which produces no lag. The main function of a line doubler is to take a 240p signal and create a 480p progressive signal by doubling each scan line.
There are a lot of different reasons to want an OSSC over a frameister besides just no input lag, here's an in-depth review that goes into those reasons that I suggest reading:
http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/ossc.html
D.Lo
Member
No, the main function of a line doubler is to take a 240p progressive image and double up the lines to 480p.
A deinterlacer is what converts 480i to 480p. It's a different thing.
I should've worded that better because that is what it does to 240p signals, it just doubles the lines to achieve 480p, but a line doubler does also convert interlaced signals into progressive by adding in the missing lines by delivering each scan line to the TV twice. It doesn't really deinterlace the signal it just makes the signal compatible with displays that didn't accept 15khz signals like 31khz CRT monitors. I just said that because it is what a line doubler was originally made for.
Since you're a Silent Hill fan, I can tell you that SH2 on PS2 is better off on the Framemeister, because the FM deinterlaces 480i. The OSSC only multiplies and will blur the image.
NormalFish
Banned
OSSC deinterlacing should be improved if not in the next firmware the soon after. And honestly from the videos i've seen, it's pretty clean. The Framemeister still is probably preferable for most games, but I don't think the OSSC is so objectionable unless you hate the hack-y, lower quality bob deinterlace.
NormalFish
Banned
480i vs 480p on the framemeister is a crap shoot. 480p will have a ton of artifacting, and generally requires you to screw up your scaler options to hide them if you want passable IQ. If you do this, you're going to lose some of the detail you gain by going to 480p. 480i, on the other hand, just simply has less information to go on, so you're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place.
From fiddling with this for probably hundreds of hours at this point, my personal recommendation for using a PS2 (which is really the only console where debates between 480i vs 480p is relevant, everything else is generally one or the other) is this: Use RGB SCART, 480i, and use a sharper perfect scale profile. Some 2D graphics (such as UI elements) and text will look worse with the sharp scaling, but I find the graphics are generally clearly and the colors look more defined.
Component is an issue since both the component output of the PS2, and the D-Terminal/Component input on the framemeister are noisy. Moreover, I find configuring color options with component on the framemeister is somewhat difficult and I generally found myself unsatisfied.
Also, since I mentioned it earlier, the framemeister handles the NGC and Wii 480p alright. Generally those games are just more attractive generally and I have never considered using 480i on either. Can't speak to the Dreamcast or XBOX. Really, though, unless you're forced in to using your framemeister for these consoles, you'll probably find most other scalers (including your television's built in scaler) will handle 480p better than the framemeister.
Native 480p is preferred all around. Many PS2 games don't support that natively though.
Supposedly, the OSSC can multiply 480p to 960p. The FM provides more options. You can chose standard scaling or interger nearest neighbor. I've yet to see a comparison of these modes on both devices.
Thank you so much!
Mylifeingaming showed a quick video of the 960p mode in their scaler alternatives video.
Hopefully with the new patch of the OSSC we will get more in depth comparision videos.
NormalFish
Banned
My impression from Fudoh and others' posts about the OSSC 480p stuff is that it's more or less exactly 1:1. Minimal artifacting, the processing is basically nonexistent, so it should come out looking more or less like a emulator running at native internal res.
I remember asking for 480p PS2 screenshots and Fudoh responding more or less "Why? it's exactly what you expect."
D.Lo
Member
No, a line doubler does not do that.
If you run 480i into a line doubler, it will throw away half the signal and line double half of it. You lose 50% of the resolution, no deinterlacing.
A deinterlacer takes a 480i signal and line doubles every second field to create a slighly offset 480p signal. Or in the Framemeister's case it actually creates a genuine new frame with mixed information each frame to give a 60fps signal.
The OSSC is a line doubler AND a deinterlacer. But they are two entirely separate functions.
I'd expect that it looks like a magnified native 480p image, which is good.
NormalFish
Banned
What line doubler doesn't have some sort of deinterlacing? XRGB-3 is a well known line doubler, and it deinterlaces albeit badly. This isn't an area where I can rattle off models off the top of my head, though.
Yup, as it should be.
D.Lo
Member
Some Extron ones I believe.
You can force some to treat 480i as 240p and get line doubling of one of the two fields. I remember some people doing this with Mega Man 9. Some crazies even downscaled that to 240p for real CRTs. Some can go straight from 480i to 240p by removing the offset of the two fields I believe.
So what's really going on? Both fields getting multiplied and combined into one frame? Is that possible without a frame buffer?
Nevermind, these are sleep deprived ramblings. Line doubling interlaced fields to 60Hz full frames is a pretty straight forward function.
D.Lo
Member
Real deinterlacing like the Framemeister uses a frame buffer, hence the lag.
Older XRGBS I believe line doubled each field separately, but if you left it like that they will flicker all over the place since pixels would be jumping one space 30 times a second. So the lines are moved apart from each other I think?
Yeah exactly. It takes the lines of each interlaced field and doubles them, filling the entire frame. This results in the signal having a frame rate identical to the field rate, but each frame having half the vertical resolution so like you said it's not deinterlacing the picture. Line doubling also reduces combing artifacts but causes some flickering. This is noticeable mostly on stationary objects since they appear to bob up and down.
Following this thread I've been reading on the OSSC and now I'm confused.
My understanding is that the device is supposed to be affordable but it's barely cheaper than an xrgb mini
How come? With shipping and handling it's about 320$ CND for me which is anything but affordable
My understanding is that the device is supposed to be affordable but it's barely cheaper than an xrgb mini
How come? With shipping and handling it's about 320$ CND for me which is anything but affordable
What XRGB Mini pricing are you comparing it to?
Solaris website is showing ~$465 CAD before shipping at present.
For us Europeans is probably even cheaper, since we're pretty much forced to go for the EU-tax-free option, in order to dodge much higher customs fees (less than 200 euros for the complete pack including OSSC + universal power supply unit + remote, vs the 378 required for the Mini + D Terminal cable).
That said, I guess I can speak for other adopters too, it's not really about the price - you're right on that, if you can buy an OSSC, you could afford a FM as well - but more due to personal preferences, according to the different specs of the device.
Isn't original Silent Hill a little problematic with the Framemeister, due to its variable resolution?
DVI-D and HDMI are both digital you won't gain or lose anything using one or the other. You won't have sound on your TV even with an HDMI cable / adapter though, as DVI doesn't output audio. You need to get it from audio out on the OSSC, either feeding it back into HDMI through an adapter or directly to an external amp.
Your TV may have stupid settings depending on the input, like one not allowing game mode, or the other being forced into overscan mode or something.
Thanks Khaz, very helpful as always.
As for now, I'm gonna test the device on a few years old Asus full HD 24" monitor (it's not a TV). This is going to be a temporary setup, though, as I'll be upgrading to a new monitor soon. That said, I've been using that monitor with both my 360 and PS3, mostly in HDMI, and I never had to fiddle too much with the settings.
As for the audio, I know it's not going to come out of DVI, so I'll plug in the Creative set I'm currently using with my retro setup.
I guess I'll just check out Amazon and go with the cheapest cable I can find, then.
As for now, I'm gonna test the device on a few years old Asus full HD 24" monitor (it's not a TV). This is going to be a temporary setup, though, as I'll be upgrading to a new monitor soon. That said, I've been using that monitor with both my 360 and PS3, mostly in HDMI, and I never had to fiddle too much with the settings.
As for the audio, I know it's not going to come out of DVI, so I'll plug in the Creative set I'm currently using with my retro setup.
I guess I'll just check out Amazon and go with the cheapest cable I can find, then.
Yeh, I was just thinking, I have both (well OSSC on the way), and NZD is nearly on par with CAD right now, and I'm sure the FM cost about $200 NZD more...
I had forgotten, but yes. I tend to let my PS3 output to 480i or 480p, so that's how I've avoided it. If you don't have a PS3, then the Framemeister's sync drops do become a problem.
I lost my marbles for a sec while staying up late. Each filed is line doubled to create one whole frame. Technically, interlaced frames are presented @ 30Hz but since temporal information is devided in half between 2 separate fields, we get 60Hz worth of motion resolution. This naturally translates well enough to line doubled 60Hz. The problem still remains however, that you have 1/2 the picture information making up an entire frame even if we are using both fields and not "throwing away" an original field. It will still look blurrier compared 2 field per frame deinterlacing.
This also creates the "bobbing" effect. Where the picture hops on the screen. My understanding is that some devices will offset frames towards each other to stabilize things a bit.
Shin Johnpv
Member
Interlacing is a terrible fucking thing, friends don't let friends interlace.
Amen to this, you know what's up. It's why I don't like to capture PS2 games.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
It's a reality of many excellent PS2 games & GameCube games, as well as a handful of PS1, Saturn, and N64 games. It's well worth just having a good way of dealing with it.
Its not so bad with a good 2 field per frame, motion compensated deinterlacing. It can look like native 480p. The only problem I can't overcome in games is a strong moire effect that suspect is a byproduct of games having performance dips and/or PS2 having a nonstandard interlacing method.
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