sixteen-bit
Member
I thought HDRetrovision was looking into that.
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Retro AV Club Thread 2: Classic Gaming Done Right!
- Thread starter Mega
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They are.
Shin Johnpv
Member
Look up your tv model on rtings.com they usually rate how well the sets upscale 1080p. I posted pictures in the previous thread of my 4K set and it looks pretty damn good IMHO. Plus for me the bigger concern was lag, and most 4K sets were showing less lag than the 1080p ones. Probably from hardware manufacturers not wanting to put in the time or resources on what they see as older tech being phased out.
I've tested my Toro --> SCART to component transcoder --> component inputs on our Panny plasma just for fun and it actually looked decent. That TV scales 480p quite nicely though.
Naked Snake
Member
I'm thinking about getting a Wii U and hooking it up to my CRT for playing Wii, GC, and VC games, but have a bit of a dilemma and not sure what the best route to take would be.
My TV is a 21" Sony Trinitron that accepts RGB through SCART (also S-Video through SCART but I'd much rather use RGB). I know that NTSC Wii U doesn't output RGB (thanks Nintendo), so...
If I get a UK Wii U and hack it, would I be able to run NTSC games on it and output RGB without major issues, or is that more trouble than its worth?
Get a US Wii U and Component-to-SCART adapter and hope that my TV accepts YPbPr (a gamble that I have no idea of its chances of success)?
Get a US Wii U and settle for S-Video?
Any other ideas or caveats I need to be aware of?
My TV is a 21" Sony Trinitron that accepts RGB through SCART (also S-Video through SCART but I'd much rather use RGB). I know that NTSC Wii U doesn't output RGB (thanks Nintendo), so...
If I get a UK Wii U and hack it, would I be able to run NTSC games on it and output RGB without major issues, or is that more trouble than its worth?
Get a US Wii U and Component-to-SCART adapter and hope that my TV accepts YPbPr (a gamble that I have no idea of its chances of success)?
Get a US Wii U and settle for S-Video?
Any other ideas or caveats I need to be aware of?
NormalFish
Banned
You'd probably be better off being a wii up on the cheap. There's homebrew to use SCART on a NTSC unit, emulators so that you're not confined to the games that nintendo deemed worthy of a VC release, and it's a hell of a lot cheaper.
Plus Wii U can't output 240p. Wii is a way better choice.
Naked Snake
Member
I thought the same can be done on Wii U in vWii mode (except 240p and maybe a couple of other differences).
The appeal of the Wii U for me is that it's like a Wii U + Wii + GC combined in one unit. My goal is to minimize the number of systems I own without sacrificing much on quality.
I sold my GC and gave my Wii to my nephews... I would rather not rebuy either of them since I'd like to get a Wii U for its own library and off-TV play capabilities, so I'd like to make the best out of its backward compatibility + homebrew features while I'm at it.
NormalFish
Banned
Ah, you're probably right about homebrew (at least the emulators). I forgot the nature of vWii. I'm not sure if the scart-enabling hacks would work.
Does the Wii U even do 480i? I mean if everything is 480p you're probably SOL.
Naked Snake
Member
I believe it does and the same composite, S-Video, component and SCART cables for the Wii can be used on the Wii U.
Of course it does, I used it recently even!!!
PumpkinSpice
Banned
I'm thinking about getting a Wii U and hooking it up to my CRT for playing Wii, GC, and VC games, but have a bit of a dilemma and not sure what the best route to take would be.
My TV is a 21" Sony Trinitron that accepts RGB through SCART (also S-Video through SCART but I'd much rather use RGB). I know that NTSC Wii U doesn't output RGB (thanks Nintendo), so...
If I get a UK Wii U and hack it, would I be able to run NTSC games on it and output RGB without major issues, or is that more trouble than its worth?
Get a US Wii U and Component-to-SCART adapter and hope that my TV accepts YPbPr (a gamble that I have no idea of its chances of success)?
Get a US Wii U and settle for S-Video?
Any other ideas or caveats I need to be aware of?
If you know the model number of your Trinitron (or can find it on the back) you can look it up online and get the manual to see if it will do YPbPr over SCART. Then you could just get a US / NTSC Wii U and not deal with any 50hz funny business.
Naked Snake
Member
I actually did exactly that before posting my question in this thread. The manual does not mention anything about YPbPr, but I didn't want to take that as a conclusive answer.
It's Sony KV-21LS30E, I couldn't find the English manual of this exact model but I found it for the KV-21LS30U (pdf) which I'm guessing is identical but sold in a different region (same with KV-21LS30B and KV-21LS30K).
Someone filmed Streets of Rage 2 playing on it in RGB: https://youtu.be/Nt936SkPI4Q
I love this sucker, supports anamorphic widescreen too. Played PS1, N64, Dreamcast, PS2, XBox, GC, and Wii on it. All in RGB except N64 and Wii in S-Video. I actually modded my N64 for RGB way back, but it gave me a darkened picture over SCART so I didn't use it. I might redo the mod someday as I'm sure there are better instructions for it these days.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
There's also a service manual here: http://elektrotanya.com/sony_kv-21ls30_chassis_fe-2.pdf/download.html
I'd bet that component/YUV is available on the chips inside so if you were adventurous and open to possibly electrocuting yourself you could maybe wire up a component input.
But, honestly I'd recommend maybe just going with s-video & a US Wii U or RGB with a UK one.
Naked Snake
Member
Thanks for the link to the service manual. Might come in handy some day.
I think I need to look into what can and can't be done with a modded UK Wii U... there might also be a way to force RGB output on an NTSC Wii U via homebrew. I remember reading you could do that on the Wii to play NTSC games in PAL60.
i got my OSSC and also a 4K TV today. it's practically christmas for me right now.
but there's one bad news. the OSSC's line triple modes don't work with this TV. i guess i'll have to test with my PC monitor. as of now, it doesn't look like it will replace the FM in my setup.
i tested some consoles and 720p looks quite better compared to my old TV. the benefit of 3x scaling is pretty noticeable. i calibrated colors and stuff a bit in game mode using the test suite and it looks pretty good already.
things i still need to test is the FM to see how it fares and also i need to test if it takes 240p over component/hdmi.
edit: tried 240p over component and HDMI and component has some weird post processing that smooths pixels. makes it look worse than the same signal over HDMI.
not that i use this often but it's good to see the option is there since my old TV could do this too.
but there's one bad news. the OSSC's line triple modes don't work with this TV. i guess i'll have to test with my PC monitor. as of now, it doesn't look like it will replace the FM in my setup.
i tested some consoles and 720p looks quite better compared to my old TV. the benefit of 3x scaling is pretty noticeable. i calibrated colors and stuff a bit in game mode using the test suite and it looks pretty good already.
things i still need to test is the FM to see how it fares and also i need to test if it takes 240p over component/hdmi.
edit: tried 240p over component and HDMI and component has some weird post processing that smooths pixels. makes it look worse than the same signal over HDMI.
not that i use this often but it's good to see the option is there since my old TV could do this too.
Shin Johnpv
Member
240p Component to your FM or tv is doing that? If it's the FM then check/change some of your settings because it doesn't do that for me. If it's your tv it could be a setting there also.
Wii U games should be played on a HDTV display, it's a waste otherwise!
Wii U doesn't support 240p which I think is enough to rule it out vs just obtaining a cheap Wii for your CRT. And while I can't speak for 480i over Component, vWii on 480p HDMI is awful, strangely blurrier than upscaled 720p and 1080p. I thought maybe my TV was doing a poor job of upscaling 480p, but direct caps confirmed it's blurrier. Missle and I speculated Wii U adds a crappy blur filter when set to SD resolution.
Naked Snake
Member
I know
I wasn't intending to do otherwise. My idea was to use it on the CRT only in vWii mode, but...I think you just killed my desire for that.
What's special about 240p? Shouldn't 240p and 480i look the same on my CRT since the TV can only display an interlaced image anyway?
480i alternates images every 1/60th second (odd lines then even lines)
240p is a fixed image refreshed 60 times a second with only odd lines displayed. This is why you see scanlines.
240p is much easier on the eyes than 480i and doesn't flicker.
Everything you said is true and I agree with, definitely the last line.
Naked Snake
Member
Ok, now I get it. I can't believe that I didn't realize before that scanlines come from a progressive scan image... I used to think interlacing was the reason for scanlines /facepalm
I also used to think that progressive scan didn't exit before the Dreamcast, GC and PS2... My reality is shattered. I feel like I need to rethink everything now, haha.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Also when people say 240p, it's mostly for the NTSC standard, in Europe, we had 256p
Naked Snake
Member
Yeah. I live in the Middle East, technically PAL land also, but from the PS1, N64 and onward I only bought NTSC consoles.
I love how just a moment ago Mike Matei released his game room setup video where he said how he had got a lot of people asking if he would make the change into RGB .. and that he probably wouldn't since it's a lot of work for a small image quality update.
And now he's got a gscartsw switcher and a PVM. Once you go RGB...
https://twitter.com/Mike_Matei/status/799752699126218752/photo/1
And now he's got a gscartsw switcher and a PVM. Once you go RGB...
https://twitter.com/Mike_Matei/status/799752699126218752/photo/1
My OSSC arrived on Tuesday (was shipped last Thursday) but I only had time to test it today. Line triple mode looks amazing on my older 22" BenQ monitor. I'm a little disappointed that my Samsung HDTV monitor doesn't seem to support it but maybe that's because it's more of a TV than a monitor (it's kind of both). So far I've only tested the OSSC with my PAL Mega Drive and Dreamcast, I still need a SNES RGB cable. I should probably move to NTSC consoles eventually but I have a lot of PAL stuff still so I'm happy that it works so well.
With the Mega Drive it looks really good in line triple "320x240 optim" but the picture jitters a little and even more with "256x240 optim". Those options are supposed to be for advanced users according to the Wiki but I'll try to get rid of the jitter before settling for "Generic 4:3". Haven't had much luck yet, though.
The jitter can be seen with the right exit option:
Dreamcast doesn't look as good as Mega Drive somehow, maybe I'll have to try some settings.
If anyone's interested there are a couple more pictures here: http://abload.de/gallery.php?key=u6AEiCqd (it's in German but navigation shouldn't be difficult)
With the Mega Drive it looks really good in line triple "320x240 optim" but the picture jitters a little and even more with "256x240 optim". Those options are supposed to be for advanced users according to the Wiki but I'll try to get rid of the jitter before settling for "Generic 4:3". Haven't had much luck yet, though.
The jitter can be seen with the right exit option:
Dreamcast doesn't look as good as Mega Drive somehow, maybe I'll have to try some settings.
If anyone's interested there are a couple more pictures here: http://abload.de/gallery.php?key=u6AEiCqd (it's in German but navigation shouldn't be difficult)
cyborgnumberblue
Member
Messing about with the 16:9 mode on a TATE setup, looks pretty legit. Also, the option of vertical scanlines make it look even better.
Horizontal scanlines:
Vertical scanlines:
Horizontal scanlines:
Vertical scanlines:
cyborgnumberblue
Member
Those are all from using the OSSC.
Yeah, the horizontal ones make for a brighter picture, but the vertical ones make everything a bit sharper to me, actually.
Naked Snake
Member
Are there any downsides to getting a PAL Wii for homebrew? Anyone know if I can run all VC emulators at full speed and proper color/resolution at 240p and RGB (PAL60?)?
my 240p tests were directly to the TV since i was checking if it could display 240p like my old one.
i plugged the OSSC to my monitor and it displays the 480p line doubled mode. i believe more tweaks are possible but i have like no experience tweaking my monitor and the OSSC is still new so i have no idea what does what in it.
as of now i'm leaning to keeping the OSSC over the FM. with the OSSC, i could potentially ditch my CRT too since there's no lag in the OSSC + monitor setup and that CRT takes too much space. also, my TV does a good job at scaling 480p and looks quite good.
more testing is needed definitely (i also want to play pokemon so my focus is divided) but the OSSC looks like a more future proof device to keep right now (the FM is a bit old also)
btw, are there any specific tweaks needed for both devices on a 4K TV? this is also new territory for me and i have no idea if the same settings for 1080p work the same here or if there's other more efficient tricks to try.
i'll get to the screen capture business later.
I heard some PAL games are 50hz on VC. Maybe spring for an NTSC Wii?
Naked Snake
Member
The idea is to play NTSC VC games on a PAL system, via the region-unlocking magic of homebrew. I'm not hot on getting an NTSC Wii because it doesn't output RGB and I'd like to use that on my CRT, since it doesn't have component and I don't like s-video.
NormalFish
Banned
If you're buying VC games off the store, you'd probably find it easier to use homebrew to unlock RGB scart than using homebrew to unlock the PAL VC store.
If you're using an emulator, then yeah, go for PAL if you're really going for minimal effort.
So guys, I'm doing my first tests with the OSSC, everything seems to work just perfect, yet I'm having some troubles setting it up (it's certainly due to my monitor)... For examples, scanlines. LineX3 works fine, I'm in generic 4:3, scanlines 87% aligned to bottom, but it looks like a line every other one is lighter than the the previous and the next one. Any tip on what I should tweak?
Edit - to be honest, they don't seem perfecly even either. I've set them on auto.
Edit - to be honest, they don't seem perfecly even either. I've set them on auto.
Naked Snake
Member
Wait, that's doable? I didn't know that, I thought it was a hardware limitation. I'll definitely look into that.
NormalFish
Banned
Yeah, I thought we'd mentioned that to you. Someone else can probably explain it better than I can, though. I haven't really fucked with wii homebrew much.
Beer Monkey
Member
vWii is hot garbage, absolutely. This really needs to be in the OP, which correctly states that it doesn't do 240p but it's also worth mentioning that it doesn't even do a proper 480p, it's a processed mess that is soft and which is not properly integer scaled at any over/underscan setting.
Wii hardware is identical everywhere in the world. all the difference comes from each region's firmware. if you region change a NTSC Wii to PAL, you get RGB output. same with a JP system.
the opposite is also true. if you region change a PAL Wii to an NTSC region, you lose RGB.
Naked Snake
Member
Do you know if the same is true for Wii U? And why is Nintendo the only company always crippling their systems based on regions *sigh*
Currently reading Fudoh's OSSC review... it's exciting to see continued development in this field.
Because Nintendo gonna Nintendo.
StevieWhite
Member
NormalFish
Banned
USPS trolling me fiercely. OSSC will probably arrive just in time for me to leave the state for thanksgiving with family.
Obnoxious
Obnoxious
Wait, what about 288p?
To have a 4:3 picture in 288p you need a 384*288 resolution.
The closest one (with still a correct ratio) was 320*256 (which is a 5:4 picture) and was used in prety much every european computer (or pal version of them). For instance the PAL amiga resolution for ECS/OCS machines was 320*256 (compared to the US 320*200 or 320*240 sometimes used).
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